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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,958 Likes: 6 |
Lincoln said if it wouldve stopped the war, he wouldnt have freed a single slave, that means the war was not over slavery, period The South plainly thought it was. Jefferson, who was a slave-owning SOutherner, plainly said it best in 1840, and it only got worse over the next 40 years.... "But, as it is, we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other."
- Thomas Jefferson to John Holmes, (discussing slavery and the Missouri question), Monticello, 22 April 1820.Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,958 Likes: 6 |
I guess your scholarly view only appears in books and links noted, but the other non-literate and uneducated folks just talk about it at the dinner table. No, the War of Secession was the most literate war, in terms of the education of its participants, ever fought at that time, and these people left literally thousands of journals, diaries and and letters. Several books too. What you suggest is that the average Confederate soldier was unaware of or did not care about the wording of the Constitution which he was fighting to uphold. Likewise you suggest that the Union men who died in droves in near-suicidal frontal assaults under Grant really had no idea for what they were fighting, even though they overwhelmingly voted to re-elect Lincoln in '64 at the bloody peak of that war. Overwhelmingly, as preserved in their own words, at the time, the Northern soldier felt the Union was worth shedding blood to preserve, as Lincoln himself plainly stated from the very beginning. Did the average Confederate soldier own slaves? No, of course not, but the prospect of freed slaves in their midst (more than a quarter of the Southern population, actual majorities in South Carolina and Mississippi) was a catastrophe that haunted the South. Taxation without representation was a root cause of our Revolutionary War, as clearly stated by the participants at the time. Yet no one seems to have a problem with that. Southerners at the time state clearly that the slavery/imposed abolition issue was what pushed 'em over the edge? Naah... it was just "politicians" saying that.....  BTW.... about THE most dangerous thing to be during that period was a pro-Union man from the South. Dissent was NOT tolerated, persecution was general. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Southerners at the time state clearly that the slavery/imposed abolition issue was what pushed 'em over the edge? Naah... it was just "politicians" saying that..... Glad you were there to verify what the common man said....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,958 Likes: 6 |
Glad you were there to verify what the common man said.... Never said I was, wouldn't presume to.... http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd26.htmSpeechmaking was the order of the day. Somebody, I don't remember who, was holding forth from the steps of the capitol. A big, rough looking fellow, a carpenter, I believe, stepped up among the crowd, and, after listening a few minutes, said to those in his vicinity:
"What the hell's it all about, anyway?"
"The n$gger," someone answered.
"The n$gger! H----l. I ain't got no n$gger. Give me a n$gger, some of you, and I'll fight for it as long as any of you. I ain't going to fight for somebody else's n$gger," And yet that was just the kind that had to do a large part of the fighting.Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Lot of white Southerners did pick there own cotton. I'll never forget every time it rains while the sun is shining my Mother saying "This is cotton picking showers". In other words they had to keep on picking even though it was raining.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
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Glad you were there to verify what the common man said.... Never said I was, wouldn't presume to.... http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd26.htmSpeechmaking was the order of the day. Somebody, I don't remember who, was holding forth from the steps of the capitol. A big, rough looking fellow, a carpenter, I believe, stepped up among the crowd, and, after listening a few minutes, said to those in his vicinity:
"What the hell's it all about, anyway?"
"The n$gger," someone answered.
"The n$gger! H----l. I ain't got no n$gger. Give me a n$gger, some of you, and I'll fight for it as long as any of you. I ain't going to fight for somebody else's n$gger," And yet that was just the kind that had to do a large part of the fighting.Birdwatcher Mike..... do you believe that the Americans who fought in Vietnam were fighting to preserve freedom for the South Vietnamese?
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 19,269
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I was fighting in Vietnam to kill communists. That is also what I was told I was going to be there for. No disappointment for me.
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish! ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/Sabretooth-1.jpg)
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,131 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,131 Likes: 4 |
I was fighting in Vietnam to kill communists. That is also what I was told I was going to be there for. No disappointment for me. I thought that was the reason too, but looking back I think the Government lied to us about that, amongst other things. I am not sure that I fully understand what went on in the back rooms back then. I know it was not good for our country in the long run and I still don't like the way it ended. miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Most younger guys have never heard of SEATO.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2003
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BW
If it was plainly slavery why didnt the Corwin Amendment fix the problem?
Lincoln was no abolitionist
lincoln wanted all blacks colonized elsewhere
lincoln said, if I could this war without freeing a single slave i would
US Grant owned slaves as did Lincolns wife, hypocrites
how come the emancipator only freed the slaves in the south and waited until 1863 to do it, if it wasnt about slavery...the reason was mclellan was making a living getting his ass handed to him by bobby lee despite having a bigger army, more ammo, more supplies etc
Revisionist history is a great pulpit for which you can pontificate from
Last edited by SAKO75; 06/28/15.
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered."
― George Orwell, 1984
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,239 Likes: 1 |
BW
If it was plainly slavery why didnt the Corwin Amendment fix the problem?
Lincoln was no abolitionist
lincoln wanted all blacks colonized elsewhere
lincoln said, if I could this war without freeing a single slave i would
US Grant owned slaves as did Lincolns wife, hypocrites
how come the emancipator only freed the slaves in the south and waited until 1863 to do it, if it wasnt about slavery...the reason was mclellan was making a living getting his ass handed to him by bobby lee despite having a bigger army, more ammo, more supplies etc
Revisionist history is a great pulpit for which you can pontificate from I was under the impression that the Emancipation Proclamation was, at least partly, intended to put a "moral high ground" hurdle ahead of any European power that might consider recognizing the CSA as a legitimate government. After all, it was, at least to some degree, in Europe's favor to have two or three weak countries occupying the footprint of what was and would become the USA. I think that states that were part of the CSA should have a right to honor the memory of their CW veterans by flying the Confederate Battle Flag.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I guess your scholarly view only appears in books and links noted, but the other non-literate and uneducated folks just talk about it at the dinner table. No, the War of Secession was the most literate war, in terms of the education of its participants, ever fought at that time, and these people left literally thousands of journals, diaries and and letters. Several books too. What you suggest is that the average Confederate soldier was unaware of or did not care about the wording of the Constitution which he was fighting to uphold. Likewise you suggest that the Union men who died in droves in near-suicidal frontal assaults under Grant really had no idea for what they were fighting, even though they overwhelmingly voted to re-elect Lincoln in '64 at the bloody peak of that war. Overwhelmingly, as preserved in their own words, at the time, the Northern soldier felt the Union was worth shedding blood to preserve, as Lincoln himself plainly stated from the very beginning. Did the average Confederate soldier own slaves? No, of course not, but the prospect of freed slaves in their midst (more than a quarter of the Southern population, actual majorities in South Carolina and Mississippi) was a catastrophe that haunted the South. Taxation without representation was a root cause of our Revolutionary War, as clearly stated by the participants at the time. Yet no one seems to have a problem with that. Southerners at the time state clearly that the slavery/imposed abolition issue was what pushed 'em over the edge? Naah... it was just "politicians" saying that..... BTW.... about THE most dangerous thing to be during that period was a pro-Union man from the South. Dissent was NOT tolerated, persecution was general. Birdwatcher Mike it was a most literate war but persecution ran deep and was meted out by Union forces against pro secessionist Missourians in a very harsh manner. There are mountains of writings showing the main reason (according to southerners and conveniently left out of the history books) they fought was because they were occupied, their constitutional rights were taken away, robbed, looted, raped and murdered by union troops. It is fair to say that not all Union troops did this and there are writings stating the abhorrence of some Union officers to these actions but Lincoln was definitely aware of it and did nothing. Here is just one writing of many from the southern view: In reply to the vast numbers of out of state Federal troops in Missouri, native Francis W. Springer said: "We must remember the majority of Southerners did not own slaves and most certainly did not fight so others could own them. The real answer is quite simple. The South was fighting because it was invaded." Simply put self preservation kicked in. Hard...
One man with courage makes a majority....
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,131 Likes: 4 |
I can believe that the common Southerner, that owned no slaves, would fight to keep them from being freed to roam the country and create mischief. More so than to keep them working in the fields. A scare tactic, if you will. Seems that is the reason that the red man went on a Reservation. I still fail to see how the war could be fought over freeing the black man unless both sides thought that it was the case, and they did not at the beginning, because just a few abolitionist were calling for that to happen. Certainly not Lincoln. The North was trying to control the South in lots of ways because they needed the crops to come through them. They did not want the Southern ports to send the cotton and other things to Europe without them making their dollar. They had already lost the income from the slave trade. miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,239 Likes: 1 |
It has been my impression that most Union soldiers fought to preserve the Union and freeing the slaves was of only minor importance to the majority.
I sincerely wish that Grant had been in a position to be promoted to General-In-Chief before Gettysburg and therefore would have been in a position to force Meade to destroy the Army of Northern Virginia before it could retreat south across the Potomac River into Virginia. That move would likely have shortened the American Civil War and saved tens of thousands of lives that were lost between July 1863 and June 1865. Grant had the killer instinct that the other Union Army commanders lacked.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Glad you were there to verify what the common man said.... Never said I was, wouldn't presume to.... http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd26.htmSpeechmaking was the order of the day. Somebody, I don't remember who, was holding forth from the steps of the capitol. A big, rough looking fellow, a carpenter, I believe, stepped up among the crowd, and, after listening a few minutes, said to those in his vicinity:
"What the hell's it all about, anyway?"
"The n$gger," someone answered.
"The n$gger! H----l. I ain't got no n$gger. Give me a n$gger, some of you, and I'll fight for it as long as any of you. I ain't going to fight for somebody else's n$gger," And yet that was just the kind that had to do a large part of the fighting.Birdwatcher And all this proves that this fella did not fight (if at all) for someone else s "n$gger"...
One man with courage makes a majority....
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
You're full of piss and vinegar today!  I need more coffee. Yeah. Gotta take Steph in for yet another CAT scan this morning so they can see just how her cancer ( that they aren't going to treat) is going!!!! Prayers uplifted for y'all.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2003
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Grant had the killer instinct that the other Union Army commanders lacked.
except sherman
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered."
― George Orwell, 1984
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,674 Likes: 44 |
What a ridiculous exchange. I got an "F" in American History, but I know enough to not fight over a war on principle that was never really decided and still people are killing each other 150 years later. You guys get an "F" for resurrecting this outdated issue. Get over it, these guys did... ![[Linked Image]](http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/Odds%20and%20ends/Civil%20War%20survivors.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,648 Likes: 6 |
You're full of piss and vinegar today! I need more coffee. Yeah. Gotta take Steph in for yet another CAT scan this morning so they can see just how her cancer ( that they aren't going to treat) is going!!!! Prayers uplifted for y'all. Thanks brother! Funny how we as a nation "healed". My GG Grand dad died at Petersburg in the confederate service. And wifey's GG grand dad survived Andersonville.
Last edited by kaywoodie; 06/28/15.
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
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Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
What a ridiculous exchange. I got an "F" in American History, but I know enough to not fight over a war on principle that was never really decided and still people are killing each other 150 years later. You guys get an "F" for resurrecting this outdated issue. Get over it, these guys did... The epitome of provincialism. Just like 'WOOD' rifles good, plastic bad. Till you are asking to buy/borrow a plastic rifle for an AK hunt. Seems I recall you NOT believing how wet AK was till you went, then you saw.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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