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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
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None of the Wikipedia links cite the Virginia Historical Society ?? Where do you think I got the URL? [34] Virginia Historical Society...if you want to start quoting them as a source, it'd be best if you tried it when folks opposed to your BS don't have immediate family relatives that work there. You have access to THEM, egad man! get them to provide the relevant links, for and against. You can only have an honest intellectual discourse with an individual that is intellectually honest. Birdwatcher has proven himself otherwise. Where exactly? Oh, and since you haven't the intellectual fortitude to answer hillbillybear's question about Constitutional authority, I'll do it for you. Others already did. Lincoln never acted alone, about a half million folks, not all in the North, supported what he did and were willing to die to preserve the Union. I woulda willingly fought on their side. My dear friend EvilTwin thinks highly of you. It means a lot to me to have the high regard of such men  It appears even he can be mistaken as to the worth of an individual. You resorted early on in this thread to personal slander, in that case of my origins, as if that affected historical fact  No worries, getting insulted is part of what I do for a living. Best I can put it is this way.... If you were on fire I'd rush across all six lanes of a busy interstate AND vault the concrete wall in the middle to pee on you to put out the flames, because it would be the right thing to do. Whether you would do the same for me, even across a narrow footpath, is totally irrelevant. Birdwatcher I know you both personally and have no doubt that the two of you would pee on each other, and laugh about the fact that neither of you could piss very high. 
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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and 3) in that post you sound EXACTLY like a Liberal....  or even (*gasp!*) 4) a HISTORICAL REVISIONIST!!! 
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Mike, aka Birdwatcher,is definitely NOT intellectually dishonest. He does his own research and often winds up on the opposite side in arguments with me, but he is no B.S. artist. He's an interesting guy and a good friend. And you, Sean, have been shooting from the hip for over a dozen years here. His 'research' on this subject, and his presentation of the same, is an intellectually dishonest as Hussein's on the Second Amendment.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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His 'research' on this subject, and his presentation of the same, is an intellectually dishonest as Hussein's on the Second Amendment. Where exactly? I've been posting words, they are all still there, right here on this very thread. Anyways, I've been on here all day and it has just come to my recollection that I actually have to go back to work in less than TWO MONTHS
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Anyways, have you EVER been to Lakota Country? Or any powwow anywhere for that matter? The FIRST thing they do is parade Old Glory, accompanied by an honor guard of Military veterans to the tune of an honoring song, drums, singers, the works ..and I'm still recalling the words of Sammy White Eyes, the late and much lamented and very popular Kiowa Master of Ceremonies, who was also a proud ex-Marine. Shorty after 9/11 he spoke words at the United San Antonio Powwow to the effect that... many people say that we should not go to war, but the truth is these people have already declared war on us.By "us" he meant his fellow Americans of course. Birdwatcher I have only been closely associated with one reservation. The Confederated Tribes Of Warm Springs open EVERY ceremony, even the by invitation only ceremonies I attended, with the parade of the US stars and stripes. They are extremely proud of their Veterans.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You acknowledged that a free people have the right to peacefully separate from a government, yet you state that you would fight against those free people if they attempted to separate from a government.
What do you have against freedom? IMHO the best hope for freedom has been an intact United States of America (I'm sure you disagree). and... These people actually drew up a Constitution specifically designed to hold more than three million people in chains, not merely stealing their lifelong freedom and the fruits of their labor, but also their rights to association, marriage and even the custody of their own children. Goes without saying too that the women and girls (and heck, prob'ly boys to in some cases) in many cases were subject to actual or defacto rape at the whim or not of their captors (AKA "owners"). Slavery was an abomination and a curse, once it was a given that the shooting had commenced, that alone would be reason enough for taking up a gun on the Union side. I damn sure could never fire a shot in defense of the Confederate Constitution. ..and if all that ain't enough, chattel slavery was the absolute antipathy to Libertarianism  Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I'm pretty sure the part that bothers them is the fact that we say "Liberals can kiss our mother^&king ass."
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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its hard to understand why indians love the flag and blacks hate the confederate flag, i would rate the indians treatment worse
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered."
― George Orwell, 1984
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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JoeBob, you've been doing pretty good so far, but I fear you're gonna come tumbling down in flames by telling us "..and the Jews were responsible, for all of it." So, now you resort to character assassination by accusing me of being anti-Semitic? Of course, during the Civil War a Jew wouldn't have been elected dog catcher in New England while a practicing Jew was secretary of state for the Confederacy. Judah P. Benjamin exiled himself to England after the war where he made a name for himself as one of the better legal minds in the entire country and had a fine career. We've always loved our Jews in the South. The local temple was always a fixture of genteel southern society.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
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You acknowledged that a free people have the right to peacefully separate from a government, yet you state that you would fight against those free people if they attempted to separate from a government.
What do you have against freedom? IMHO the best hope for freedom has been an intact United States of America (I'm sure you disagree). and... These people actually drew up a Constitution specifically designed to hold more than three million people in chains, not merely stealing their lifelong freedom and the fruits of their labor, but also their rights to association, marriage and even the custody of their own children. Goes without saying too that the women and girls (and heck, prob'ly boys to in some cases) in many cases were subject to actual or defacto rape at the whim or not of their captors (AKA "owners"). Slavery was an abomination and a curse, once it was a given that the shooting had commenced, that alone would be reason enough for taking up a gun on the Union side. I damn sure could never fire a shot in defense of the Confederate Constitution. ..and if all that ain't enough, chattel slavery was the absolute antipathy to Libertarianism Birdwatcher So,...you would fight to keep everyone enslaved to the government in order to free a few people from being enslaved by others. In fact, Lincoln didn't have the best interests of the black slave in mind. He only wanted control over the blacks so he could deport them out of the country. His main objection to black slavery was that it kept blacks in the country.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So, now you resort to character assassination by accusing me of being anti-Semitic? The first logical mis-step you have made all day. And IMHO you were durn near pitching a no-hitter.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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So, now you resort to character assassination by accusing me of being anti-Semitic? The first logical mis-step you have made all day. And IMHO you were durn near pitching a no-hitter. Nope, I understand the game well. Even asking a question like that is character assassination. It's like, "When did you stop beating your wife."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So,...you would fight to keep everyone enslaved to the government in order to free a few people from being enslaved by others. A patently absurd statement. In fact, Lincoln didn't have the best wishes of the black slave in mind. He only wanted control over the blacks so he could deport them out of the country.
His main objection to black slaves was that it kept blacks in the country. No, as he stated clearly, his main objection to slavery was that it threatened the continued existence of the Union. Heck even the Confederates agreed on that point, only that they FAVORED disunion. Anyways, Lincoln on slavery in his own words.... http://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/slavery.htmMy own favorite; August 1st, 1858... As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. ...IMHO damn near Biblical in its simple profundity. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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https://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/bennett-glory.html What are we to understand by all this? We are to understand, among other things, that words, especially Lincoln's words, are deceiving and that Lincoln announced his first plan as a mask to cover his real plan and his real end. That at any rate is the testimony of another intimate Lincoln friend, Henry Clay Whitney. What was his real end? The Proclamation, Whitney said, was "not the end designed by him, but only the means to the end, the end being the deportation of the slaves and the payment for them to their masters—at least to those who were loyal" (323, italics in original).
There is corroboration on this point from, of all people, Abraham Lincoln, who asked Congress in his second State of the Union Message to approve not the Emancipation Proclamation but an entirely different plan, the real plan he had confided to Judge Davis, a plan that contradicted the Proclamation and called for, among other things, the deportation—his word—of Blacks and the racial cleansing of the United States of America (CW 5:518-37).
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2 |
"If the people cannot trust their government to do the job for which it exists - to protect them and to promote their common welfare - all else is lost."
Barack Obama
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,958 Likes: 6 |
Nope, I understand the game well. Even asking a question like that is character assassination. No game here. ...and what we assume about the motives of others might tell us much about our own... (no games here either, just an observation born of long experience) More'n a few folks around here blame lots of bad things on the Semites, I would have been genuinely disappointed to number you in that group. IMHO this has been a great series of exchanges, thanks. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
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As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master.
Yet, I would start a war that kills hundreds of thousands of people. Forcibly drag people and states who wished nothing more than to be left alone back into the Union. Ruthlessly stifle dissent. Deport and arrest elected representatives. Order the arrest of the chief justice of the supreme court. And so on and so forth. Yeah, he was Biblical alright. Ahab, comes to mind. Maybe, Herod.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Face it; Birdwatcher worships at the feet of a central gov't, with Lincoln as the Messiah of the same. It's nigh biblical in devotion, and self-blinded all the same.
Lincoln abrogated the Constitution in a manner even Birdwatcher admits, violated the premise of a free people breaking away from a government they no longer can tolerate, and yet, Birdwatcher considers the "great emancipator" as next to God Himself in greatness. All the while contradicting statements Birdwatcher himself has made about the sovereignty of the Constitution and the rights of people to self-govern.
I reiterate my opinion of him as to intellectual honesty.
Can you imagine what it must be like to have one of your children subjected to this schit and beholden to it in a public school?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master.
Lincoln regularly contradicted himself on the slavery issue. As with most politicians, his views depended on his audience. Have you spent any time reading the transcripts of the Lincoln-Douglas debates?
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