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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master.
Lincoln regularly contradicted himself on the slavery issue. As with most politicians, his views depended on his audience. Have you spent any time reading the transcripts of the Lincoln-Douglas debates? Only the parts with which Birdwatcher agrees, to be sure.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
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I'm being ignored. I'm beginning to think you guys believe I don't take you seriously.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
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Lincoln's entire career from his very first political speech revolved around instituting a national bank, a tariff system, and industrial subsidies. It was known as the American System.
Seriously, read up on it. It was his life's work. So, was he genuinely anti-slavery, or was he merely interested in breaking the South so that he could institute his system? His statements on blacks and his intention to deport them to the wilds of Africa seems to indicate that he wasn't altruistically interested in the welfare of the black man.
Last edited by JoeBob; 06/29/15.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm being ignored. I'm beginning to think you guys believe I don't take you seriously. You take very little seriously, unless there is brandy involved.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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Lincoln's entire career from his very first political speech revolved around instituting a national bank, a tariff system, and a industrial subsidies. It was known as the American System.
Seriously, read up on it. It was his life's work. So, was he genuinely anti-slavery, or was he merely interested in breaking the South so that he could institute his system? His statements on blacks and his intention to deport them to the wilds of Africa seems to indicate that he wasn't altruistically interested in the welfare of the black man. That won't be on the gov't mandated HS standards tests for brainwashing future generations, so why would a HS teacher who buys the gov't line of BS want to read such a thing? It might require actually critical thought...
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,958 Likes: 6 |
There is corroboration on this point from, of all people, Abraham Lincoln, who asked Congress in his second State of the Union Message to approve not the Emancipation Proclamation but an entirely different plan, the real plan he had confided to Judge Davis, a plan that contradicted the Proclamation and called for, among other things, the deportation—his word—of Blacks and the racial cleansing of the United States of America What! Lincoln used the term "racial cleansing of the United States of America"??? Heck, not only was he WAY ahead of his time in his terminology, he'd find a place among some right here at the 'Fire.... Meanwhile he was expressing a view common at the time in both the North and South and also held by a significant number of Black folk. Google on "American Colonization Society 1816".... and.... "Liberia, West Africa, 1847"... Heck, I would just Wiki it but I'm afraid you've already burned yer own bridges in that regard Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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There is corroboration on this point from, of all people, Abraham Lincoln, who asked Congress in his second State of the Union Message to approve not the Emancipation Proclamation but an entirely different plan, the real plan he had confided to Judge Davis, a plan that contradicted the Proclamation and called for, among other things, the deportation—his word—of Blacks and the racial cleansing of the United States of America What! Lincoln used the term "racial cleansing of the United States of America"??? Heck, not only was he WAY ahead of his time in his terminology, he'd find a place among some right here at the 'Fire.... Meanwhile he was expressing a view common at the time in both the North and South and also held by a significant number of Black folk. Google on "American Colonization Society 1816".... and.... Liberia, West Africa, 1847.... Heck, I would just Wiki it but I'm afraid you've already burned yer own bridges in that regard Birdwatcher So, your savior was flawed...go figure. Seems you're proving the oppositions point without even trying. Congratulations. Now, perhaps you'll start learning along the way, though I doubt it.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,170 Likes: 2 |
You take very little seriously, unless there is brandy involved. Lot's of work goes into changing the past. I don't reckon it's a very good investment.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
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That won't be on the gov't mandated HS standards tests for brainwashing future generations, so why would a HS teacher who buys the gov't line of BS want to read such a thing? It might require actually critical thought.. Kemosabe. Does it matter at all that I don't teach history?
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
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So, your savior was flawed...go figure. Dude! Take a break! Why are you swinging and missing so wildly?
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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That won't be on the gov't mandated HS standards tests for brainwashing future generations, so why would a HS teacher who buys the gov't line of BS want to read such a thing? It might require actually critical thought.. Kemosabe. Does it matter at all that I don't teach history? Likely not any more to you as it does to the students. Consider one of the people you're arguing with here (not me) has a fuggin' PhD in History, concentrating on this era and subject. Of course, I'm sure your biased, admittedly limited research on the matter is far more comprehensive and compelling. Not.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2010
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Do you wish the South had won?
Birdwatcher If a free people decide that they no longer want to be governed by the governing entity, all it should take is an announcement. The fact that it usually results in war is because the tyrannical government which presides over the people refuses to release them from their bonds. To sum up, you're not free. You're owned. The government will kill you before it sets you free. That's the lesson of the American Civil War. AMEN!
"...why, land is the only thing in the world worth working for, worth fighting for, worth dying for,... because it is the only thing that lasts."
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
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There is corroboration on this point from, of all people, Abraham Lincoln, who asked Congress in his second State of the Union Message to approve not the Emancipation Proclamation but an entirely different plan, the real plan he had confided to Judge Davis, a plan that contradicted the Proclamation and called for, among other things, the deportation—his word—of Blacks and the racial cleansing of the United States of America What! Lincoln used the term "racial cleansing of the United States of America"??? Heck, not only was he WAY ahead of his time in his terminology, he'd find a place among some right here at the 'Fire.... Meanwhile he was expressing a view common at the time in both the North and South and also held by a significant number of Black folk. Google on "American Colonization Society 1816".... and.... "Liberia, West Africa, 1847"... Heck, I would just Wiki it but I'm afraid you've already burned yer own bridges in that regard Birdwatcher So you were already aware of Lincoln's intentions to deport the blacks from America? Tell me again how "biblical" his words are.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
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Lincoln's entire career from his very first political speech revolved around instituting a national bank, a tariff system, and industrial subsidies. It was known as the American System.
Seriously, read up on it. I will, thanks, tho it would prob'ly be boring as all get out. So, was he genuinely anti-slavery, or was he merely interested in breaking the South so that he could institute his system? His statements on blacks and his intention to deport them to the wilds of Africa seems to indicate t hat he wasn't altruistically interested in the welfare of the black man. More'n a few people of all intentions had long believed Blacks and Whites could never coexist, so Lincoln's intended deportations don't tell us much. Even if that had been his stated intention all along I'd STILL take up arms on the Union side. Chattel slavery alone was toxic, and poisoned all it touched. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
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So you were already aware of Lincoln's intentions to deport the blacks from America? LOTS of people felt that way, I'll bet I could even find actual Quakers in there somewhere. Tell me again how "biblical" his words are. OK, here ya go... "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master."Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
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Consider one of the people you're arguing with here (not me) has a fuggin' PhD in History, concentrating on this era and subject. ..and he'd prob'ly be the first to agree with me that anyone who actually brags on their own University degrees is necessarily an idiot But I do appreciate his presence. Of course, I'm sure your biased, admittedly limited research on the matter is far more comprehensive and compelling. Not. Um.. this is more like being a musician going to jam on a Sunday afternoon out under the oak trees in back of the bar at Luckenbach. Nobody could GAS how long you studied music, all that matters is how well you play. Specific to the War Between the States there's some damned fine amateur Historians out there. Heck just go to any reenactment, the conversations to be had there rock Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,833 Likes: 9 |
Lincoln's entire career from his very first political speech revolved around instituting a national bank, a tariff system, and industrial subsidies. It was known as the American System.
Seriously, read up on it. I will, thanks, tho it would prob'ly be boring as all get out. So, was he genuinely anti-slavery, or was he merely interested in breaking the South so that he could institute his system? His statements on blacks and his intention to deport them to the wilds of Africa seems to indicate t hat he wasn't altruistically interested in the welfare of the black man. More'n a few people of all intentions had long believed Blacks and Whites could never coexist, so Lincoln's intended deportations don't tell us much. Even if that had been his stated intention all along I'd STILL take up arms on the Union side. Chattel slavery alone was toxic, and poisoned all it touched. Birdwatcher A fool's errand. More slaves were imported to Brazil than the US. Slavery was even more entrenched there than in the US and conditions were far harsher. And slaves were imported there until 1856. Yet, by 1888 slavery was dead in Brazil where an ordered system of compensated emancipation was put into place. There was no hugely bloody war. No history of recriminations and resentments. Today, Brazil is immensely racially integrated with there being few purely white or black persons in the whole country. But, of course, that could have never happened here. But, then again, in 1800 slavery was legal in practically every country in the western world and hugely entrenched in all of the Americas. By 1900 is was legal practically nowhere in the western world and in only one country was a war "necessary" to accomplish that end.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Consider one of the people you're arguing with here (not me) has a fuggin' PhD in History, concentrating on this era and subject. ..and he'd prob'ly be the first to agree with me that anyone who actually brags on their own University degrees is necessarily an idiot But I do appreciate his presence. Of course, I'm sure your biased, admittedly limited research on the matter is far more comprehensive and compelling. Not. Um.. this is more like being a musician going to jam on a Sunday afternoon out under the oak trees in back of the bar at Luckenbach. Nobody could GAS how long you studied music, all that matters is how well you play. Birdwatcher You don't play worth a schit, as you're out of tune (flat) and out of key but can't be convinced of it.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
More'n a few people of all intentions had long believed Blacks and Whites could never coexist, so Lincoln's intended deportations don't tell us much.
Well,...they tell us that he should have been known as "The Great Deporter" instead of "The Great Emancipator". Lincoln, June 26, 1857. I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all the members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform—opposition to the spread of slavery—is most favorable to that separation.
Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So Brazil's society was just like ours? Based upon similar principles? Just when exactly did they start such widespread miscegenation between the races anyhow and when would that have happened here? Specific to our own case, chattel slavery had divided this nation in two since its very inception and OF COURSE it was a rank violation of American principle (which is exactly why anyone who came out in favor of it today would be regarded as a moron at best). Slavery very nearly destroyed this nation, and in your view actually DID destroy it. Once secession came I would have taken up arms to defend the Union, and damned sure could have never defended the Confederate Constitution. Lots of the Southerners here go on and on about how they are so different from "Yankees". I'd tell 'em this; go visit rural folks all over the North, and then tell me how different these Yankees are from themselves. On my epic bike trip last summer I'd guess I saw about as many rebel flags up north as I did in the South. The Scots-Irish South without slavery? Maybe about like Vermont or New Hampshire in character. Without slavery, there most likely never would have been a war to begin with. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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