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Why, I am SHOCKED you'd say such a thing

Dudes, its been hours, absolutely gotta run.

Just keep going...

Nobody is defending slavery.

It's just that many on here have gotten beyond the understanding of Lincoln and the Civil War that was presented to us in the 4th grade.

Some of my ancestors, on my Father's side, were farmers on Long Island before the Revolution. As Crown Loyalists, they chose to remain English subjects, even though they had to pull up stakes and relocate to New Brunswick, rather than stay in New York as American citizens.

Those aren't Yankees. Yankees are and are the descendants of New England Congregationalists and they almost hailed from the east of England. The same groups fought a Civil War in England as well.

You should read a book or two. I recommend "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America" for starters. Another good would be "The Cousin's Wars".

Nope, we are a different people.

We're all Americans, the great melting pot.

The part about Lincoln getting blacks gone , Is true I mentioned that early in his thread . problem with this country is so many " smart" minds in law and government . and here you stupid SOB's can't get [bleep] together, so now phaggs can get married . ni##ers can rob, loot stores when black thug gets shot by LEO and it's all good WTF

Sorry it looks like BW has gone to sleep..... wanted to introduce a little Texas history ....I always thought that if you won the last battle, you won the war :):):) Attached a link to The Battle of Palmito Ranch, by the looks of it, Lincoln's boys should have just headed home instead of attacking those poor Texans !! Not much interest is given to this battle, and I thought it would be an interesting tidbit.

Have to also disagree with BW on this...... if he had been born in Texas before the CW, he would have fought for the South. Not a doubt in my mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmito_Ranch

Are you talking about those fine history books like the one one of my boys brought home that listed Wounded Knee at the last big Indian uprising?

Who are you referring to? JoeBob seems very knowledgeable, but I had no idea there was a history PhD in our midst.

A GREAT read is the collected memoirs of the Commander of the Southern Forces (actually composed largely of Border Hispanics) in that fight; John Salmon RIP Ford;

http://www.amazon.com/Fords-Texas-Personal-Narratives-West/dp/0292770340

As a Ranger Captain, RIP Ford likely saw more mounted combat against Comanches and Mexican bandits than any other White man who lived to tell about it



What if I had come to Texas before the Texas Revolution at age nineteen from Tennessee? Had been one of the small minority of Texian men that actually rode out to fight Indians with a Ranging Company? How about if I had made a knife for Jim Bowie, fought against Mexico under Jim Bowie and Stephen F. Austin, and had met Davy Crockett?

Noah Smithwick did all that and more, and yet when war came he could not bring hisself to support a fight against the nation his own father had fought the British to create.

Knowing that as a pro-Union man he would be murdered if he stayed, he sold his two slaves, his smithy and his mill, pulled up and headed out for California. In the Southwest he met none other than Albert Sydney Johnson hurrying east...

http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd26.htm

It was so hot during the day that we had to keep up our night travels, during which every cactus was regarded with suspicion. Somewhere out in that desolate region we met A. Sidney Johnston and party hastening to join the Confederate army. Upon learning that we were from Texas he said with some asperity:

"I think you are doing very little for your country."

"Well," I retorted, "it seems to me you are doing equally as little for yours." Johnston had just resigned his position as commander of the Pacific Coast Division of the United States army.

Likely the two were old acquaintances, Johnson likewise had fought in the Texas Revolution twenty-five years earlier. They both knew Sam Houston personally.

Birdwatcher

From Smithwick, and relevant to this discussion....

http://www.lsjunction.com/olbooks/smithwic/otd26.htm

I found a number of my old Mormon friends in California, and without an exception found them secessionists, not from any partiality for the Southern people, who were even more intolerant of Mormonism than the Northern people, nor yet because of any sympathy with the peculiar institutions of the South. They wanted to see the South succeed in its purpose to withdraw from the Union, thereby establishing a precedent - which Brigham Young would have made haste to follow.

Had there been no other reason for opposing secession, that dangerous precedent, which would have been a constant menace to the South as well as to the North, would have been sufficient ground.

I for one wish slavery had been outlawed when we won independence from Britain, but it wasn't.

In the late 20th century and now 21st century America the decedents of slaves have every opportunity and advantage in education and job preference. Very few capitalize on the opportunities they have.

If the men who actually fought to free them could look at the intercity today what would they think? Would they think it was all worth it?

Its now been 150 years and we are still dealing with the fallout of slavery and it can still sink us as a nation.

So New England Congregationalists were a majority of the population in the North in '61???

They answered Lincoln's call and did a majority of the fighting?

LINCOLN was a New England Congregationalist?

A while back I asked you why the South couldn't imagine themselves without slavery......

(I mean if our Constitution defines who we are, they wrote theirs ABOUT slavery).

You answered in effect "No, that weren't it, they had a different interpretation of what government was supposed to do and they opposed mercantilism."


Why didn't THEY say that?

Birdwatcher

Maybe the same reason that Lincoln did not mention freeing the slaves at the beginning. miles

I reiterate the point about intellectual honesty and having an honest intellectual conversation with someone who lacks said trait.

Cogent to give here definition of mercantilism...

the economic theory that trade generates wealth and is stimulated by the accumulation of profitable balances, which a government should encourage by means of protectionism.

Miles, in those very carefully deliberated and composed statements of reasons for secession all they woulda had to say is, "it ain't about slavery, its about tariffs and whatnot."

But they didn't.

With hind site we can parse this a lot better than the ones living it at the time, but my thinking that the reason the South was giving slavery so much importance in the beginning was the fact that they wanted to make sure that the Status Quo was maintained. You have to remember that that that time Slavery was legal. Abolitionist were trying to end it but Lincoln was not. New States coming in that were not slave states, nor given the choice themselves was a danger in the power struggle as the South saw it. The was was about States Rights with Slavery being one of those rights, maybe the most important one, because New States were being denied the choice. The big plantation owners had the money and time to be involved in politics, so their ideas are the ones that were immortalized in history, but the poorer, common man that owned no slaves fought the war. This shows that important as it was, it was not all about slavery. At least to me. miles

...and I still await an example of the same

Dude, its all still here, what are you referring to?