Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Question about Brennekes vs .30-06 220 grain NPT.

I thought 2300 - 2400 fps with the 220 grain would be about optimum.

FWIW, back when I was doing gun repair work full time I had Marlin lever guns with broken ejector springs and/or extractors come in fairly regularly. Certainly more often than I ever saw on 870's. Never did have a Marlin come in with a broken buttstock so I'd have to say it's not the weakest point in the Marlins and my money would be on an 870 for dependability/durability over a Marlin lever.

WWG sells their own extractor which my rifle has. No problems at all. I recommend that.

I did overstate the velocity of 30-06 - 220 grain. 2,300 - 2,400 IS more like it. I only used a quickie example without trying to be explicit. I prefer the .338 Winchester Magnum over the 30-06.

When I suggested loads for the shotgun I was referring to the big pellets/shot not bird shot. Here's a chart with size, velocity and pellet count.

http://www.unluckyhunter.com/2011/07/choosing-best-buckshot-part-1.html

Pretty impressive velocities. Up over handgun velocities. 1,400 - 1,600 fps! 15 to 50 pellets. One shot is like hitting him all at once with a couple of dozen .22 handguns.

I shot lots of shotguns in my day. And patterned them. The shot spreads out rather quickly depending on the choke. A rib and bead are plenty good at 20 yards.

My grandson presently works at a trap and skeet range 5 days a week during summer vacation from college. He's really good.

Compared to trap and skeet or wild turkey, pheasant, grouse, quail, ducks, dusting a bear up close with buck shot is very, very do-able with great success under the right circumstances. Of course, if he blind sides you or attacks from then rear that could be a big problem. In that case have the handgun available as a side arm.

And you know this because...?

And what about under the wrong circumstances?

I have several friends who are conservation officers here in the Yukon.

Quite a few years ago, one of them decided to use 000 buck in a 12 GA on a black bear that was in a schoolyard. It was after lunch, and he was concerned about a rifle bullet fully penetrating the bear and richoceting off somewhere.

He shot the bear, full in the face from around 20 feet IIRC. The bear's face bloomed red with blood, but the bear did not go down. Rather he turned and ran, which led to no small amount of excitement, which is another story.

After the bear was retrieved and skinned, it was determined that seven shot had hit the bear in the head.

Certainly, one event is not conclusive, however it was enough that Doug never used a shotgun in bear work again. I will be glad to put you in contact with him if you would like to discuss buckshot on bears.

Ted

The problem with buckshot is that each individual pellet is a poorly performing projectile, both externally and terminally.

A one ounce load of buckshot will not penetrate nearly as well as a 435 grain .458 LBT at the same velocity, especially so if heavy bone is encountered. Nor will the buckshot retain it's velocity as well, and as range increases, so does the distance between each individual projectile.

If I used a shotgun, I would prefer a saboted type slug. And I seriously doubt even they would have the penetration of a .45-70 and a 435 grain LBT at 1750 to 1800 fps. Or a 540 at 1550.

OOO buck: 8 pieces 2 3/4” Remington load



You make quite a persuasive argument for the old M94 30-30 with Core-lokts



Penetration matters! (not the amount of recoil, not the payload or speed of the same)

Yukoner:

The circumstances that you describe are not at all what I had in mind. My scenario is the bear practically on top of you. I wouldn't want to shoot a bear, with buckshot, at 20 feet, casually, standing either.

Up close, a few feet away, the shot spreads quite a bit, maybe 2-3 feet so precise aim is not so critical.

You described precisely what I envisioned. The bear lost his desire to pursue and took off. Isn't that good enough?
If your friend had fired 5 feet away the bear would, most likely, have gone down. At 20 feet the pellet probably just didn't find the brain. Contrary to what some think, the buck shot certainly has the velocity and energy to bust the skull bone and deliver a lethal dose.

There have been some bear attacks in Yellowstone. Here's the record.

http://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/injuries.htm

Not much danger.

I had a video of a game control officer attacked by a bear in his truck, being released from a cage. I can't find the video but I did find slides of it and posted them a couple of weeks ago. The bear had him. He got his side arm out and put one under the chin. There no time or opportunity for long guns.

Here's a sanguine video of a bear killing a man. It's very graphic.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2chol9_bear-kills-a-man-bear-attack-2014_animals

Here's a video of the Churchill polar bears.

http://www.animalplanet.com/tv-show...he-most-dangerous-nights-of-bear-season/

We need to keep in mind that there are three species of bears: black, generally innocuous and non-aggressive but unpredictable; grizzly, unpredictable but none the less can be very dangerous and certainly capable of serious injury and upon particular bear persistence completely deadly; polar, the worst, very aggressive, hunt humans vigorously, deadly.

My son has more bears in his yard than I do. They are always there raiding his garbage. My grandson had an encounter on the street and sought refuge in a strangers house.

Hi William,

Evidently I am considering this from a totally different perspective than you are. Seven 000 buck hits to the head did not put the bear down!

How much velocity and energy would they have lost twenty feet from the muzzle of the shotgun?

Ted

I’d use a Foster slug before I’d load buck in the shotgun, and Mr. Tibbe isn’t even referencing anything “0” buck:



At least the slug looks good ‘on paper’.

1. Push the safety to the "Off" position. 2. Put a tight-fitting neopreme "O" ring in the groove for the red "Safety Off" indicator. 3. Forget about it

I have been doing this for years now on my Guide Gun and it's never failed me. It also doesn't permanently change the gun if you ever want to get rid of it.

What about those Black Magic slugs by Brenneke. Is this what's been talked about?

Why would anyone in field conditions want to limit themselves to a 5 yard gun? This is just silly.A wounded angry bear is never good enough. Once you have determined that it needs to be shot you want that thing dead.

fuzzy

Bless you Yukoner, you are a patient man.

RE: the buckshot rationale:

20 feet is 6 meters - that is CLOSE. If I can't guarantee a kill or full bear stop with a skull shot at 6 meters with buckshot, then I shouldn't attempt such a thing. Especially considering I could have a rifle at my disposal which could break shoulders at the same range, let alone penetrate a few feet into the bear.

About the last thing I want is some wounded angry wounded free-roaming wounded one-eyed wounded grizzly that I would have to explain to the authorities, let alone one that would kill me for hurting it.

Thanks for your thoughts but I just can't see risking my life or endangering others by trying experiments like that.

I'm not asking for 'should work under the right circumstances'. I want to know what has worked and will work almost every time if I do my part. Brennekes seem like recommended bare minimum given collective experience. The .30-06 with heavy partitions seems a little better than the shotgun.

So buckshot is out of the question for me. I'm even wondering if I should bother with a shotgun. The .30-06 FWT with a 2.5x20mm or an Aimpoint Micro might be lighter, more powerful, more rugged, easier to maintain and maybe easier to work safely with.

I don't think the OP specified.

As I noted before, there's all kinds of Brennekes. The Black Magic mag weighs 1 3/8oz and has 3000 ft lbs of energy it's usable in all barrel types. The Magnum Crush weighs 1 1/2 oz and has 3800 ft lbs. It's for rifled bores. There are non-toxic slugs, sabots, and more.

The best choice would be determined by your chamber and barrel type, but any of the classic Brenneke types should outperform Fosters and in most cases, buckshot. I would feel pretty secure toting a 3" A5 Buck Special stoked with Black Magics.

I think I'd use a 30-30 before I depend on triple 0 buck shot for a charging bear.

Guys/Guys:

We are not on the same song sheet philosophically.

Whereas my criteria is HEAD shots and broad patterns, some seem to be stuck on body penetration.

I'm talking about close in desperation with the bear practically on top of you. ONLY a brain or spine shot will shut him/her down instantly. I'm speaking from experience when I say an animal that is FATALLY shot can motor on for 2-3-4 seconds and 75 yards easily before keeling over.

I'm stunned to read above that a bear was shot with 000 buck, 7 pellets were found in the head and it ran away !!!! 000 buck only has 10 pellets.

I have put down pigs on the farm with a .22 short, 6" from the skull, between the eyes. A .22 short has 830 feet per second velocity, 44 foot pounds of energy and weighs 29-30 grains.

000 Buck shot is .35 caliber, 70 grains, 1,225 feet per second and it has 10 pellets. That's more than plenty to bust a skull. From my own observations deer that are shot with buckshot, 40 - 60 yards, collapse instantly and bones are broken.

To answer the above question, the loss of velocity and energy of 000 pellets at 20 feet is miniscule.

Here;s an interesting video about buck shot and penetration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbFLY9OIqPA

I don't advocate a body shot on a bear with buck shot but I will say that such will be exceptionally devastating.

I'll add that I have shot animals with 12 gauge slugs at close range, 15 - 20 feet and they motored right past me for some distance before collapsing dead as a door nail. The slug passed through and came out the other side.

When you shoot your bear, charging you, in the chest or ribs, including the heart and lungs with a 30-06, 30-30 or .338 Winchester magnum you are already toast.
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Here's more video about 00 and 000 buck shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiQu0VVI4bQ

If you leave the previous video on it will segue into this one. About 23 minutes.

William, with all due respect, have you ever shot a charging bear? I have, and it fell close enough that I touched its eye with the muzzle of my 270 to make sure it was dead.

Why would you be surprised that seven 000 shot were in the head? Have you ever shot a 000 buck load on a target at twenty feet? The pattern is considerably less than a foot at that range.

As well, when you try some 12GA 2 3/4" 000 buck on a target, you will see it has eight pieces of shot, not ten, so Doug put 87.5% of the load into that bear's head.

Best,
Ted

William, please clarify your experiences with stopping charging bears. I'm especially curious to hear what kind of bears they were, ranges, and weapons, especially buckshot. I'm also curious to know your experiences with bluff versus real charges.

You said: "Whereas my criteria is HEAD shots and broad patterns, some seem to be stuck on body penetration."

Your thinking runs afoul of my experience. In my experience when a bear is coming for real, you shoot the middle of the brown blur with something big enough to matter. You use something with about 2200-2500 fps velocity with a good bullet that will expand and dig deep. I like a .375 and a 300 grain Nosler, but the 9.3 with a 286 would likely do the same job. Lots of other stuff out there will work. The only way I'd use a shotgun is with magnum brennekes, and that's a ways down the list.

I've only had to deal with brown bears, so I can't tell you about anything else. I've shot various bears including four that were tying to get me. Distances were 12, 7, 12, and 2 yards. The 7 and 2 yard experiences were one shot CNS hits. The others were rapid fire events. The first time i used a 12 ga and foster slugs. Never again! Very poor penetration. The others were with a .375. Typical performance there is stem to stern penetration.

The angles afforded on rapidly closing targets in these circumstances require penetration no buckshot load can provide. To believe in buckshot yourself is silly. To recommend it to others is irresponsible.