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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Reading is how people learn things.
Birdwatcher
Yeah, that worked behind the boat.... And no I do not think you are lying per se, I just wish you'd man up and say what you really think about lion hunting. [when everything I have written is true.
Birdwatcher no it isn't
Last edited by jorgeI; 08/18/15.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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Reading is how people learn things.
Birdwatcher
Reading is one; doing is another. You've not done the latter and stopped the former when you found enough to justify your erroneous agenda-driven objective, therefore failing at the that one as well.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Ranger
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when everything I have written is true.
Birdwatcher no it isn't If only obviously, and proven so time and again by multiple people and sources. Then again, the intellectually dishonest jackass can't even remember what his original position was, much less the circuitous route he took trying to defend it and the rabbit holes he went down looking for answers and routes that weren't there in the first place.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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and no I do not think you are lying per se, Oh good, I was worried we was gonna end up at dawn with pistols. I just wish you'd man up and say what you really think about lion hunting. You should ask what I think about lion hunters  Look, I'm only human, and I did go pretty hard core African for three years, in my early twenties yet (I only got laid once in three years  ). So, being Joe Africa as I was (at least the Euro interns at the hospital used to think so ) naturally I'm inclined to smile at guys "roughing it" on two- or three-week guided hunts. But, OTOH many of them lion hunters prob'ly got resumes that would far outclass mine, and every one of them through that hefty trophy fee contributes more to African wildlife conservation than I ever will. The act of locating, identifying and stalking a lion out in the boonies has got to be a rush almost beyond compare. Would I personally want to shoot one? For cause, like if it was a known problem lion. Otherwise I just ain't a trophy kind of guy. Since I have no interest in eating one (as opposed to the usual assorted herbivores) it would seem about like shooting a relative. If we were standing there together I would tell you go for it if ya want. In fact I would even guide you in on it if I knew where it was. But shoot it myself? Prob'ly not. Perhaps I have owned one too many house cats Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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The African PH I know best, both from hunting with him and correspondence over the years, does believe commercial hunting (however well "controlled") has had an significant impact on game populations in recent years, especially dangerous game. He claims, with some evidence, that "intensified" sport hunting (taking more than protected land can resupply) simply adds to the reduction from poaching. In fact he saw so much greed and over-shooting in the last few years that he retired from professional hunting rather than continue to take part in what he considered over-hunting in many areas, and he was either a game scout or PH for almost 50 years.
He knows the over-population of southern Africa and corruption of national governments is the biggest factor in the loss of larger big game, but his opinion (based on considerable experience) is that "sport" hunting is also a factor in some areas, for some species.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sir, you are a wordy, illogical individual of uncertain accomplishments. Furthermore you apparently enjoy insulting other men over the internet. Anyhow, just ta throw you into some more tizzy, here's another link. A recent dissertation out of the University of Wisconsin... http://lionguardians.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Dolrenry-Stephanie-PhD-2013.pdfAfrican lion (Panthera leo) behavior, monitoring, and survival in human-dominated landscapesSome interesting quotes.... The Amboseli-Tsavo ecosystem provides an important corridor connecting Kenya’s largest remaining lion population, associated with the Tsavo National Park complex, with the lion populations of Tanzania. The ecosystem comprises the 5,975 km² region between Amboseli, Tsavo West and Chyulu Hills National Parks in Kenya and Kilimanjaro National Park in northern Tanzania. The area outside the parks is divided into group ranches, land communally
owned by Maasai pastoralists.....
Only two perennial rivers flow in the region, but the swamps of the
Amboseli basin provide a permanent water source which support an abundance of large mammals and birds for which the region is famous (Berger 1993). While the abundant wildlife provisions a lion population, this ecosystem also has one of the highest recorded rates of human-induced lion mortality in East Africa (Hazzah et al. 2009,
Maclennan et al. 2009). For this reason, I chose this as an ideal area to carry out an in-depth examination of a lion population that inhabits human- and livestock- dominated landscapes and is affected by human persecution.....
Recent research has focused on the effects of sport hunting on lion populations originating from protected areas and migrating into the surrounding landscapes where they are hunted. Although sport hunting has been found to disrupt social behaviors due to removal of pride males by leading to increased rates of male infanticide and female-biased adult sex ratios and male-biased cub sex ratio; Whitman et al.(2004) demonstrated that mortality of males over the age of six years does not result in population decline.
In this study, I examine basic demographic characteristics and spatial patterns of a lion population on human- and livestock- dominated lands without sport hunting but where retaliatory
hunting by local people, of both sexes and all ages of lions, has occurred for centuries. I investigate whether lion demographics differ in this population from populations found in protected areas and those affected by sport hunting.Sounds interesting to me. The group ranches of the study area support a rapidly growing human population of over 30,000 and nearly 150,000 head of livestock. Frequent conflicts between lions and people result in heavy lion mortality: between 2001 and 2011, over 250 lions died within the
study region, of which at least 207 were known to be killed by people, 78% by spearing, the remainder by poisoning. It is estimated that for every lion killed there were 10 - 50 unsuccessful hunts....
Maasai lion hunting is largely retaliatory, targeted at a lion that has killed livestock, Hazzah et al. (2011) found that more males than females were killed in this region between 2001 and 2011. During traditional Maasai lion hunts, killing a male lion provides the greatest prestige. Two things here... between 2001 and 2010 at least some Maasai were still hunting lions with spears, prob'ly still are (a practice which doubtless raises one's blood pressure a tad), to the tune of 160 lions over a ten year period. More lion stuff, and frankly, if ya don't find this interesting you must have rocks in your head.... In one week, a young female, with her first litter of young cubs, managed to take three giraffe, two juveniles and one adult. Another young solitary male killed two adult bull giraffe also within a week’s time.....
Similar to giraffe kills, pre and post drought observations of ostrich kills were markedly different; two were observed during 2004 to 2008 and 27 post-drought, 2009 to 2012, with 11 ostrich kills occurring during the month of October 2010......
Age distribution of the study population was skewed with few older adults yet in recent years the population began to show a more equal composition, similar to patterns reported by Schaller
(1972) in the Serengeti and Stander (1991) in Etosha NP, Namibia.
In contrast to the female bias seen in other areas, the 1 to 0.91 adult sex ratio of the lion population on these unprotected communal lands is slightly biased in favor of males. By comparison, the sex ratio within Amboseli National Park is 1:1.5-1.7, 1:2 in Selous, Serengeti, Kgalagadi, and Kunene regions. Where sport
hunting targets males, more extreme bias toward females occurs: 1:6.3 in Hwange NP, Zimbabwe, 1:5.7 in Savuti Game Reserve, Botswana,
1:4.3 Luangwa Valley, Zambia. It goes on to present the different lion social strutures in these areas in depth. Fascinating stuff, at least to me. OK, apologies to anyone else reading this as doubtless anonther tirade of insults is inbound. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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MD,
Which country?
(I saw the French overhunt areas in Cameroon. They planned to grab the money and go in a few years)
PHs given concessions with quotes, or that combined with "Special Licenses" that every Minister in certain countries has to pass about?
Just curious.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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Campfire Outfitter
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Where I hunted in Zim in 2011, my PH had negotiated a 9-year lease with the tribal council (not the Zim government). Every year he negotiated a quota of all species with the council for that year. Both he, as a businessman, and the council were smart enough to want the game to last. The council got all the trophy fees and the PH got the daily fees. Neither wanted to "eat your own seed corn." To ensure we did not cheat, a game scout, employed by the council, went with us into the bush.
At the time, the quota on lion was two males and one female per year, IIRC. We came upon a poached elephant and searched around for tracks or other evidence. My PH reported it by radio to the council and 17 game scouts showed up that evening. Also, the PH had a law enforcement role. I was told we should shoot any elephant or rhino poachers we encountered. Fortunately, none were seen.
I don't think that area was overhunted by trophy hunters. I personally saw at least four male lions and some females, at least 1000 buffalo, 100 or so hippos, and some plains game. Lion tracks were everywhere and just to feed the lions whose tracks we saw would have required 765 buffalo each year, we estimated.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A recent dissertation out of the University of Wisconsin...
That's all I need to know to discard... Here's the REAL proof: [video:youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_-MT66TRiLM[/video]
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Jorge,
My experience has been that the leading wildlife scientists in various locations are professionals, in the same way that I would expect the engineering departments in those places to be professionals, regardless of local politics, YMMV.
'Tis a real pity trophy hunting has been outlawed in Kenya. Else people would probably pay mega dollars to go and spear a lion with the Maasai.
It is my understanding this is/was a group activity wherein the lion was faced with a arc of guys with spears that flanked the lion as they closed in, such that any direction the lion charged towards them there would be spear men on its flank, the most prestige going to the guy who threw the first spear. The equivalent of the PH's backup gun being the numerous other spears subsequently thrown at the lion.
I would expect, given the usual virtuosity exhibited by those who have grown up using primitive weapons, that the Maasai's ability to hit a moving target with a spear was pretty good, in former days at least. But I have heard that many of their young men head for the cities for jobs nowadays.
Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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And that is why you are wrong and wrong often. Just like the Global Warming kooks, academia is almost without exception, anti-hunting with politics as the focal point. Just because they are professionals doesn't mean squat to me. What DOES matter however, is following the money, and HUNTING and placing a value on game, is the only thing that works. Hunting ALL of it, is the biggest champion of wildlife and not some egg head with a pocket protector and a leftist agenda...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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not some egg head with a pocket protector and a leftist agenda.. I haven't met any that fit that description. This is a HIGHLY competitive field, everyone and their brother wants to study wildlife for a living.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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hatari,
Primarily Zimbabwe, where he was born when it was Rhodesia, as well as Mozambique and RSA, where he and his wife have lived since they grew too weary of Mugabe.
In fact he's so pessimistic about the entire future of southern Africa that he and his wife are moving to England. One of their sons has worked as a gunsmith for one of the big London firms for around 20 years now.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Outfitter
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BW:
With respect, you err. I am a graduate of two of the finest universities in the USA and can tell you that anyone who does not voice the "politically correct" view is out. Engineering is different because there is no such thing as "politically correct" engineering.
Remember how Larry Summers got fired as the president of Harvard for just suggesting that someone study why there are more men than women in the STEM fields? While on the subject of Harvard, they pay Elizabeth Warren $300,000 per year or thereabouts to teach only one class. Can you identify even one conservative professor at Harvard? Also, right now they are actively discriminating against Asian students, who outscore blacks on entrance requirements, in the name of "diversity."
Birdy, while I perceive you are an intelligent man, most of your knowledge seems to be in a pedagogical sense. Your three years in Ghana does not allow you to generalize about other parts of Africa. It would be like someone spending three years in Saudi Arabia and claiming to know about China because both are in Asia. As for lions, I doubt if there was a single wild lion within 500 miles of your location in Ghana.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Campfire Outfitter
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John,
Your friend is wise. The population of Southern Africa is projected to grow by 2,000,000,000 by the end of the century. That will spell the end of hunting there and also the end of any hope of an economic future.
My PH in 2011 was one of only 15,000 whites who remain in Zim, out of 300,000 or so 30 years ago. He told me that the UK would not let white Zimbabweans in, however.
My PH in RSA in 2006 sent his kids to school in foreign countries. He claims that most whites in RSA send their kids to Canada, England, or Australia. They stay there and are in demand because they are hard workers.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Indeed, quite a lot. I am a graduate of two of the finest universities in the USA Me too, one of them specializing to a large degree in Wildlife Management, hence my sympathetic view of said professors. Its pretty hard to manage wildlife without hunting. I'm not sure Harvard even has any Wildlife Management faculty. I'm trying to recall any permanent hunting ban driven and supported by wildlife management academia. Your three years in Ghana does not allow you to generalize about other parts of Africa. You should note that the only generalizations I have made about Africa based upon my experiences in Ghana have been w/regards to widespread corruption and widespread poaching. I believe these occur most places in Africa, on a catastrophic scale. All other sources of info have been cited. And really, what has been so controversial about what I have cited? Are you going to deny that there has been an overtake of sport-hunted lions in some areas? That sex ratios have been altered by regulated hunting? As for lions, I doubt if there was a single wild lion within 500 miles of your location in Ghana. This was thirty-five years ago, which might as well be on a different planet given the severity of the ongoing declines. In 1980 it was generally believed by the educated that a few lions still persisted on the Afram Plains not far from where I was. Certainly I saw the identifiable poached remains of bush cow (a smaller form of buffalo), topi, and bushbuck amid the innumerable duikers coming out of that area. There was also a confirmed remnant elephant population at that time. Poachers themselves told me about the existence of a few lions back there. Not to split hairs but 100 miles or so north was a remnant part of the adjacent Burkina Faso lion population, and hunting safaris were conducted right across the border in Togo, but you are right in the sense that lions were not a factor where I was. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Indeed, quite a lot. I am a graduate of two of the finest universities in the USA Me too, one of them specializing to a large degree in Wildlife Management, hence my sympathetic view of said professors. Its pretty hard to manage wildlife without hunting. I'm not sure Harvard even has any Wildlife Management faculty. I'm trying to recall any permanent hunting ban driven and supported by wildlife management academia. Your three years in Ghana does not allow you to generalize about other parts of Africa. You should note that the only generalizations I have made about Africa based upon my experiences in Ghana have been w/regards to widespread corruption and widespread poaching. I believe these occur most places in Africa, on a catastrophic scale. All other sources of info have been cited. And really, what has been so controversial about what I have cited? Are you going to deny that there has been an overtake of sport-hunted lions in some areas? That sex ratios have been altered by regulated hunting? As for lions, I doubt if there was a single wild lion within 500 miles of your location in Ghana. This was thirty-five years ago, which might as well be on a different planet given the severity of the ongoing declines. In 1980 it was generally believed by the educated that a few lions still persisted on the Afram Plains not far from where I was. Certainly I saw the identifiable poached remains of bush cow (a smaller form of buffalo), topi, and bushbuck amid the innumerable duikers coming out of that area. There was also a confirmed remnant elephant population at that time. Poachers themselves told me about the existence of a few lions back there. Not to split hairs but 100 miles or so north was a remnant part of the adjacent Burkina Faso lion population, and hunting safaris were conducted right across the border in Togo, but you are right in the sense that lions were not a factor where I was. Birdwatcher You do, as evidenced on this whole idiotic thread, Just grow a pair and take a stand instead of obfuscation with all this maze of bullshit.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Outfitter
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BW, your error is that you and the pointy-headed liberals assume that just because trophy hunting stops, that that amount of lions will be not be killed. Actually more get killed.
There is an interesting article in the current "Sports Afield" about a certain large ranch in the Save district in Zimbabwe. For political reasons, lion hunting was suspended for three years. Trophy fees dropped sharply. The number of anti-poaching personnel dropped from 40 to 10!! Result: All game began to be exterminated.
Without trophy fees, there is no reason for the local natives, the tribe, the safari operators, or anyone else to oppose the understandable motivation of the locals to wipe out all game for food, to sell on the bush meat market, to eliminate crop damage, and to eliminate dangerous predators.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I hardly ever post on here, I did not bring this thread here, I did not make any post on this one in a period of time and was waiting for it to scroll on down but I keep getting lectured on things I never contested, to whit....
BW, your error is that you and the pointy-headed liberals assume that just because trophy hunting stops, that that amount of lions will be not be killed. Actually more get killed.
Never contested this, not even once.
I dunno if being called "Liberal" is worse than being called a liar. I generally choose to insult folks face to face, or not at all, but thats me.
Without trophy fees, there is no reason for the local natives, the tribe, the safari operators, or anyone else to oppose the understandable motivation of the locals to wipe out all game for food, to sell on the bush meat market, to eliminate crop damage, and to eliminate dangerous predators.
Same thing again, things I never contested.
I have posted stuff I found interesting about lions.
The evidence indicates that among those lion populations protected by hunting, in some locations there has been an overtake of males, driving population declines. This has come from wildlife management professionals who are in favor of continued hunting.
End of story.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The evidence indicates that among those lion populations protected by hunting, in some locations there has been an overtake of males, driving population declines. This has come from wildlife management professionals who are in favor of continued hunting.
I"ll buy into that. You have to know that is a tough sell right now. There has been a big push in the hunting world to protect 6 year old males and younger for that reason. Years ago it wasn't an issue because more of Africa was unsettled. In the past 15 years, younger ones were taken to fill tags. I think that trend has now been reversed. There is over hunting of many species here and there, and government corruption at all levels plays into it. Loss of suitable habitat is the biggest threat to lions, and all African game. Can't get rid of the people. It was predicted 20 years ago that AIDS would by now have reduced the human population by 25%. It never happened.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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