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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,819 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,819 Likes: 1 |
FBI !!! Case Closed !!! - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
SORRY ! . . . I am underwhelmed, by this latest FBI Report Revelation. I have way more 9MM Handguns than in any other caliber - and I do like them all.
But, if 'self protection' is a compelling reason or concern for having a handgun in my possession - I feel a lot more secure and comfortable with my CZ 40P or Browning Hi-Power 40 handgun. (Or possibly, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, let alone 357 & 44 MAG Calibers.)
One size fit's all ???
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,209 Likes: 5
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,209 Likes: 5 |
The nine is fine, and I frequently carry one. That being said, no amount of FBI study will convince me that it is the equal of the .40, 10mm, or .45. Given equal placement, etc, the others are (at least) marginally better.
Now, if you told me (as the study appears to do) that the 9 is better because it is easier to make good hits and therefore shooters will be more proficient, I will buy that. All the BS of 'given current bullet tech' is just that. .40 and .45 bullets evolved too.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 69,286 Likes: 14
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 69,286 Likes: 14 |
The nine is fine, and I frequently carry one. That being said, no amount of FBI study will convince me that it is the equal of the .40, 10mm, or .45. Given equal placement, etc, the others are (at least) marginally better.
Now, if you told me (as the study appears to do) that the 9 is better because it is easier to make good hits and therefore shooters will be more proficient, I will buy that. All the BS of 'given current bullet tech' is just that. .40 and .45 bullets evolved too. ^^^What he said^^^ And I'll stick with my Glock 32 in .357 Sig, my Glock 20 in 10mm, or one of my many 1911's in good ole .45acp. And nothing beats good shot placement!
"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,283
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,283 |
9mm is cheap and women can shoot it well. End of story.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
Exactly you need to read between the lines with government agencies.
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 889
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 889 |
I can't say that I fully agree with all the conclusions & I still prefer to carry a 45 caliber pistol, but I can say that I do carry a 9mm almost as much these days & I never feel like I'm either undergunned or nor at a disadvantage in carrying the 9mm loaded with 124 gr. Federal HST's.
The 2 undeniable conclusions that I can't argue with is that the 9mm is cheaper to shoot & that most people shoot it better than a bigger caliber handgun.
MM a very astute assessment. a while back, i tested a Federal 124 gr HST in 9 mm, and a Federal 230 gr HST in .45 acp. both pills penetrated into the 3rd milk jug, with the .45 acp pill expanding to .84 rounded off, and the 9 mm pill expanding to .69 rounded off--very impressive performance in both rounds/pills. by contrast, recently i again fired a Federal 230 gr HST in .45 acp using a shorter barreled rig. the pill penetrated 3 jugs, becoming trapped or caught on the backside of the third jug--the sharp tips of the pill catching on the plastic--full 3 jug's penetration. at the same time--for contrast, knowing this pill would not expand to the wider diameter of a fired Federal HST 9 mm--i used an old standby, the Remington 115 grain hp fired from a shorter barreled 9 mm rig, figuring there would be considerably more penetration. i've used these Remington pills for decades, and they perform fairly well given the cost (today one can buy a 100 box from Wal Mart at a good value). the Rem 115 gr hp fired from the shorter barreled 9 mm rig penetrated 3 jugs, hitting the back wall of the 3rd jug, tearing a partial hole, and bouncing back into the inside of this 3rd jug. essentially--equal penetration in both cartridges--3 entire jugs. however, the Federal HST 230 gr .45 acp pill expanded to .86 rounded off, while the Remington 115 gr hp 9 mm pill expanded to .57 rounded off. one would guess/expect that the "narrower pill" would penetrate a greater distance than the "wider .45 pill", but it did not. in a simple layman's way of thinking of this, due to the wider frontal area of the .45 pill, it had considerably "more to overcome" in order to penetrate the same distance as the 9 mm. a poor cell phone pic of both those pills: remarkable, considering the diameters and the velocity of each pill. next governmental announcement; the Surgeon General has determined that smoking is helpful to your health...
all learning is like a funnel: however, contrary to popular thought, one begins with the the narrow end. the more you progress, the more it expands into greater discovery--and the less of an audience you will have...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
Bill Jordan describes the ideal law enforcement handgun in one of his books. No second place winner. He describes something like the 10mm. That is good enough for me. I I ever run out of shotgun shells I may buy one. A civilian is best served with 12 gauge loaded with buckshot IMO. whelennut
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,878 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,878 Likes: 11 |
...Now, if you told me (as the study appears to do) that the 9 is better because it is easier to make good hits and therefore shooters will be more proficient, I will buy that... Speed and precise application. The very vast majority of people who carry guns for a living do substantially better with the 9mm over the .40 and .45. Especially the .40 with its sharp recoil impulse. In fact due to the .40s sharp recoil impluse, I have noted/observed that the majority of shooters, small and large stature alike actually shoot a .45 better than a .40. Given the choice, I will choose a .45 or 9mm over the .40 every time for social applications. Sadly at the moment, I am forced by agency policy to carry a .40 on duty. Hopefully studies like this may eventually pave the way for changes..
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
I never understood the references to "women shooters", from men who would also shoot a 9 more accurately and faster.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
And good grief don't even get me started on shotguns.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,318 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,318 Likes: 1 |
I sometimes wonder about the pocket 9's with the 2 inch barrels, but can't be any worse than a short 38.
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,699 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,699 Likes: 3 |
I sometimes wonder about the pocket 9's with the 2 inch barrels, but can't be any worse than a short 38. And, since they generally all hold more than 5 rounds, you would think they have an advantage there, as well. Rockchucker and I were having this discussion yesterday. I like the peace of mind that a 5 shot 38 gives me as a backup gun. I can also see, however, that a pistol such as the Glock 43 might be actually superior. I've got a lot of miles with my old airweight bodyguard, but if I didn't, I'm pretty sure I could switch to a G43 and be just as happy.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143 |
The nine is fine, and I frequently carry one. That being said, no amount of FBI study will convince me that it is the equal of the .40, 10mm, or .45. Given equal placement, etc, the others are (at least) marginally better.
Now, if you told me (as the study appears to do) that the 9 is better because it is easier to make good hits and therefore shooters will be more proficient, I will buy that. All the BS of 'given current bullet tech' is just that. .40 and .45 bullets evolved too. Well said!
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664 |
The cartridge decision keeps going in circles but it seems little thought is given to what can be made to fit the most hand sizes. IMO you will shoot better with a handgun with more recoil up to a point (if it hurts, you'll flinch) with a handgun that fits your hand than one with less recoil that doesn't fit. Even more so if the fit is too large.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,487
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,487 |
….Still prefer the .38 Super or .357 SIG with a 115-124 grain bullet going over 1350 fps... In 9mm give me a 115 +P+...
Bob …..I took a class from John Farnam about a month ago; I don't know how accurate this is but he said that a Glock 19 is a 500,000 round gun---the same gun in .40 is a 50,000 round gun and the same gun in .357 Sig is a 5,000 round gun. He could be completely off base, I don't know…..but he's in a position to have a pretty good idea.
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,645 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,645 Likes: 1 |
I can't say that I fully agree with all the conclusions & I still prefer to carry a 45 caliber pistol, but I can say that I do carry a 9mm almost as much these days & I never feel like I'm either undergunned or nor at a disadvantage in carrying the 9mm loaded with 124 gr. Federal HST's.
The 2 undeniable conclusions that I can't argue with is that the 9mm is cheaper to shoot & that most people shoot it better than a bigger caliber handgun.
MM a very astute assessment. a while back, i tested a Federal 124 gr HST in 9 mm, and a Federal 230 gr HST in .45 acp. both pills penetrated into the 3rd milk jug, with the .45 acp pill expanding to .84 rounded off, and the 9 mm pill expanding to .69 rounded off--very impressive performance in both rounds/pills. by contrast, recently i again fired a Federal 230 gr HST in .45 acp using a shorter barreled rig. the pill penetrated 3 jugs, becoming trapped or caught on the backside of the third jug--the sharp tips of the pill catching on the plastic--full 3 jug's penetration. at the same time--for contrast, knowing this pill would not expand to the wider diameter of a fired Federal HST 9 mm--i used an old standby, the Remington 115 grain hp fired from a shorter barreled 9 mm rig, figuring there would be considerably more penetration. i've used these Remington pills for decades, and they perform fairly well given the cost (today one can buy a 100 box from Wal Mart at a good value). the Rem 115 gr hp fired from the shorter barreled 9 mm rig penetrated 3 jugs, hitting the back wall of the 3rd jug, tearing a partial hole, and bouncing back into the inside of this 3rd jug. essentially--equal penetration in both cartridges--3 entire jugs. however, the Federal HST 230 gr .45 acp pill expanded to .86 rounded off, while the Remington 115 gr hp 9 mm pill expanded to .57 rounded off. one would guess/expect that the "narrower pill" would penetrate a greater distance than the "wider .45 pill", but it did not. in a simple layman's way of thinking of this, due to the wider frontal area of the .45 pill, it had considerably "more to overcome" in order to penetrate the same distance as the 9 mm. a poor cell phone pic of both those pills: remarkable, considering the diameters and the velocity of each pill. next governmental announcement; the Surgeon General has determined that smoking is helpful to your health... H_V, nice write up of a very interesting test. Thanks for posting. MM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,773 Likes: 21
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,773 Likes: 21 |
….Still prefer the .38 Super or .357 SIG with a 115-124 grain bullet going over 1350 fps... In 9mm give me a 115 +P+...
Bob …..I took a class from John Farnam about a month ago; I don't know how accurate this is but he said that a Glock 19 is a 500,000 round gun---the same gun in .40 is a 50,000 round gun and the same gun in .357 Sig is a 5,000 round gun. He could be completely off base, I don't know…..but he's in a position to have a pretty good idea. So my Glock 17 should last me several lifetimes.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,645 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,645 Likes: 1 |
...Now, if you told me (as the study appears to do) that the 9 is better because it is easier to make good hits and therefore shooters will be more proficient, I will buy that... Speed and precise application. The very vast majority of people who carry guns for a living do substantially better with the 9mm over the .40 and .45. Especially the .40 with its sharp recoil impulse. In fact due to the .40s sharp recoil impluse, I have noted/observed that the majority of shooters, small and large stature alike actually shoot a .45 better than a .40. Given the choice, I will choose a .45 or 9mm over the .40 every time for social applications. Sadly at the moment, I am forced by agency policy to carry a .40 on duty. Hopefully studies like this may eventually pave the way for changes.. I couldn't agree more & couldn't have said it better........ Even though I own a couple of 40's, they don't see much use for exactly the reasons cited by MS. About the only thing that makes a 40 useful is a big & heavy service gun not intended for CCW use. MM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters. Kinda hard to argue with this. Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2012
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,436 |
Well, as I mentioned to my wife, God told me to buy a 45.
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