New study shows when round-count, accuracy and penetration are factored in, bigger isn't better.

A new study from the FBI’s Training Division shows that overall, the 9mm Luger pistol round is the best option for law enforcement handguns, recommending departments shouldn’t switch their side arms to larger rounds considered by many to be more lethal.

Based in a combination of factors, including so-called “stopping power,” weight and availability, the FBI study shows that the 9mm round penetrates far enough, allows for shooters to carry more rounds, and is more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds like the .45 ACP or .40 Smith & Wesson.

“Most of what is ‘common knowledge’ with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore. … Handgun stopping power is simply a myth,” the FBI said in its report. “There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.”

The study — which was concluded May 6 but has just been leaked online — comes as the U.S. military is considering a new handgun to replace its decades-old Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and some law enforcement agencies are debating whether to outfit their officers with heavier rounds. The findings may also help civilian gun owners decide which handgun to purchase for self defense and concealed carry.

Arguing “stopping power” only applies to shots to the central nervous system (the head or neck), the FBI says modern 9mm Luger ammunition retains most of the ballistic characteristics and penetration power as its larger-caliber brethren, but is easier to control and leads to more accurate shots.

The study shows most law enforcement shootings result in only about 30 percent of the rounds hitting their target.

“The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other,” the FBI says. “To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols. The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.”

So when the skill of the shooter — with many agencies and even civilian shooters unable to train on a consistent basis — is a factor, there’s no shortcut in shooting a larger-caliber round.

“While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance,” the study says. “Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.”

it's cause of all those women Feebs these days.

It also provides agencies with the option to train more for the same money, or save money in ammunition cost for the same number of rounds they have been purchasing on a yearly basis.

The more I shoot the nine the better I like it. My first choice in a carry gun today is my Glock 19

The study shows most law enforcement shootings result in only about 30 percent of the rounds hitting their target.
9mm = more rounds in the mag so they can miss more.

comes as the U.S. military is considering a new handgun to replace its decades-old Beretta M9 9mm pistol
The military uses FMJ and a 9mm doesn't equal a larger hole.

What will the US government do with all of the 40 cal ammo it has hoarded?

I'll take a .357 magnum with good hollow points over a 9mm. YMMV

So with all the money saved and all that extra training, more perps will be hit at center mass thereby enforcing the belief that the 9mm is an adequate manstopper.
Based on that line of thinking, why not just go to the .380?

Boy am I glad that's been settled.

It's not mentioned in the article but every armorer I've spoken to says the .40 is hell on guns compared to the 9.

Especially the 155gr duty stuff.




Travis

You can finally sell off all those fancy revolver things you like so much.




Travis

Yeah, that is what I was planning on doing. Going to shave my head too.

The difference in shooting the same pistol in 9mm and .40 (especially the absurdly hot practice ammo many agencies use) is undeniable.

If I need to shoot accurately, quickly, I'll take a 9 all day every day.

There aren't any known accounts of felons shot with a 9mm and saying "I read somewhere that the 9mm isn't effective, that didn't hurt!"

Bullet placement trumps pistol cal all day long

I don't have a big problem with the 9mm as a defensive round...what I don't like however is the 147 grain Subsonic ammo...regardless of the advances in bullet technology...

Still prefer the .38 Super or .357 SIG with a 115-124 grain bullet going over 1350 fps... In 9mm give me a 115 +P+...

Bob

yes, i am too...


this "finding" is, in a sense, "enlightening" revelation.


awhile back Form made a post essentially about "advancements in the precision rifle field/industry".

i agree with the essence of his idea that "the gains/advancements/equipment/techniques" made in the field do not come from the governmental sectors--but rather--by the civilians who seriously work at this everyday.


but the 'case closed, fbi says' "conclusion" is in my mind almost like "putting the cart before the horse, or driving the hammer with the nail."


admittedly, the 9mm is a great round--my favorite handgun round--but i couldn't fully agree with this "conclusion"...

now bob don't be running down the new equivilent of the 38special. Tain't nice.
I was shooting a 38wcf, more than one, this weekend and snickering to a guy with me it's a 100 year old round that ballistically is a .40s&w. And i don't consider myself that great, i popped a beer can four out of six times out around 25 to 30 yards out of that old colt. The first round didn't count as i jerked the gun, first time i have fired it since around age of six.
i don't have a lot of issue with the 9mm, it's been killing people for a long time. But i do think the ammo selection is a lot more important that for the .45.

WOW I seemed to remember when the FBI said that the 10mm was the be all end all of handgun cartridges. Then they discovered that the on-paper ballistics didn't equal hits on target. Sort of like the 41 Magnum was going to be the cartridge when cops carried revolvers.

Because 380 costs more than 9mm.

plus 25 auto cost more than 380

I can't say that I fully agree with all the conclusions & I still prefer to carry a 45 caliber pistol, but I can say that I do carry a 9mm almost as much these days & I never feel like I'm either undergunned or nor at a disadvantage in carrying the 9mm loaded with 124 gr. Federal HST's.

The 2 undeniable conclusions that I can't argue with is that the 9mm is cheaper to shoot & that most people shoot it better than a bigger caliber handgun.

MM

FBI !!! Case Closed !!!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

SORRY ! . . . I am underwhelmed, by this latest FBI Report Revelation.
I have way more 9MM Handguns than in any other caliber - and I do like them all.

But, if 'self protection' is a compelling reason or concern for having a handgun in my possession -
I feel a lot more secure and comfortable with my CZ 40P or Browning Hi-Power 40 handgun.
(Or possibly, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, let alone 357 & 44 MAG Calibers.)

One size fit's all ???

The nine is fine, and I frequently carry one. That being said, no amount of FBI study will convince me that it is the equal of the .40, 10mm, or .45. Given equal placement, etc, the others are (at least) marginally better.

Now, if you told me (as the study appears to do) that the 9 is better because it is easier to make good hits and therefore shooters will be more proficient, I will buy that. All the BS of 'given current bullet tech' is just that. .40 and .45 bullets evolved too.

^^^What he said^^^

And I'll stick with my Glock 32 in .357 Sig, my Glock 20 in 10mm, or one of my many 1911's in good ole .45acp. And nothing beats good shot placement!

9mm is cheap and women can shoot it well. End of story.

Exactly you need to read between the lines with government agencies.

a very astute assessment.


a while back, i tested a Federal 124 gr HST in 9 mm, and a Federal 230 gr HST in .45 acp. both pills penetrated into the 3rd milk jug, with the .45 acp pill expanding to .84 rounded off, and the 9 mm pill expanding to .69 rounded off--very impressive performance in both rounds/pills.



by contrast, recently i again fired a Federal 230 gr HST in .45 acp using a shorter barreled rig. the pill penetrated 3 jugs, becoming trapped or caught on the backside of the third jug--the sharp tips of the pill catching on the plastic--full 3 jug's penetration.

at the same time--for contrast, knowing this pill would not expand to the wider diameter of a fired Federal HST 9 mm--i used an old standby, the Remington 115 grain hp fired from a shorter barreled 9 mm rig, figuring there would be considerably more penetration. i've used these Remington pills for decades, and they perform fairly well given the cost (today one can buy a 100 box from Wal Mart at a good value). the Rem 115 gr hp fired from the shorter barreled 9 mm rig penetrated 3 jugs, hitting the back wall of the 3rd jug, tearing a partial hole, and bouncing back into the inside of this 3rd jug.

essentially--equal penetration in both cartridges--3 entire jugs. however, the Federal HST 230 gr .45 acp pill expanded to .86 rounded off, while the Remington 115 gr hp 9 mm pill expanded to .57 rounded off.

one would guess/expect that the "narrower pill" would penetrate a greater distance than the "wider .45 pill", but it did not. in a simple layman's way of thinking of this, due to the wider frontal area of the .45 pill, it had considerably "more to overcome" in order to penetrate the same distance as the 9 mm.

a poor cell phone pic of both those pills:





remarkable, considering the diameters and the velocity of each pill.



next governmental announcement;

the Surgeon General has determined that smoking is helpful to your health...

Bill Jordan describes the ideal law enforcement handgun in one of his books.
No second place winner.
He describes something like the 10mm.
That is good enough for me.
I I ever run out of shotgun shells I may buy one.
A civilian is best served with 12 gauge loaded with buckshot IMO.
whelennut

Speed and precise application.

The very vast majority of people who carry guns for a living do substantially better with the 9mm over the .40 and .45. Especially the .40 with its sharp recoil impulse. In fact due to the .40s sharp recoil impluse, I have noted/observed that the majority of shooters, small and large stature alike actually shoot a .45 better than a .40.

Given the choice, I will choose a .45 or 9mm over the .40 every time for social applications. Sadly at the moment, I am forced by agency policy to carry a .40 on duty. Hopefully studies like this may eventually pave the way for changes..

I never understood the references to "women shooters", from men who would also shoot a 9 more accurately and faster.

And good grief don't even get me started on shotguns.

I sometimes wonder about the pocket 9's with the 2 inch barrels, but can't be any worse than a short 38.

And, since they generally all hold more than 5 rounds, you would think they have an advantage there, as well.

Rockchucker and I were having this discussion yesterday. I like the peace of mind that a 5 shot 38 gives me as a backup gun. I can also see, however, that a pistol such as the Glock 43 might be actually superior.

I've got a lot of miles with my old airweight bodyguard, but if I didn't, I'm pretty sure I could switch to a G43 and be just as happy.

Well said!

The cartridge decision keeps going in circles but it seems little thought is given to what can be made to fit the most hand sizes. IMO you will shoot better with a handgun with more recoil up to a point (if it hurts, you'll flinch) with a handgun that fits your hand than one with less recoil that doesn't fit. Even more so if the fit is too large.

…..I took a class from John Farnam about a month ago; I don't know how accurate this is but he said that a Glock 19 is a 500,000 round gun---the same gun in .40 is a 50,000 round gun and the same gun in .357 Sig is a 5,000 round gun. He could be completely off base, I don't know…..but he's in a position to have a pretty good idea.

H_V, nice write up of a very interesting test.

Thanks for posting.

MM

So my Glock 17 should last me several lifetimes.

I couldn't agree more & couldn't have said it better........

Even though I own a couple of 40's, they don't see much use for exactly the reasons cited by MS.

About the only thing that makes a 40 useful is a big & heavy service gun not intended for CCW use.

MM

Kinda hard to argue with this.




Dave

Well, as I mentioned to my wife, God told me to buy a 45.

Do you prefer number 4 buck or 00?

If you take a statistics class they would say you need to shoot one hundred people with each pistol/ammo combination in order to have a valid
study. Does the FBI do this?
whelennut

And right there is the crux of the matter. There has never been a 'shortcut' to the ability to use a substantial sidearm under pressure.

It requires intimate familiarity with your sidearm. Aside from being politically incorrect, that requires a commitment of time, money and effort on the part of the shooter. It is simply easier to issue a smaller caliber that kicks less; and to compensate for lousy shooting with hi-cap magazines. A federal LE agency lowered the bar to accommodate today's non-shooting candidate. Big surprise there.

On a personal note, I've shot a few deer with handguns; carried a gun in harms way most of my life and had to use one on occasion. Most people will quit their mischief if you shoot them with lug nut from a wrist rocket.

Determined, drugged and jihadist assailants are another story. So are attacking carnivores, once they've decided they're going to separate you from your on-board sources of life support and recreation. All those have to be busted down and shot to the ground.

No way in hell I'd choose a 9mm as my primary carry. But I don't mind if you do.

Yes and no.

Most of the field data is ascertained by reports from all departments and agencies in the country.

The actual apples to apples (read laboratory) comparisons are done at Quantico.




Travis

Those who prepare these studies assign arbitrary value factors to whatever qualities they decide to.

This is not the first time that the Fat, Bald, and Ignorant have closed the case on cartridge selection. Likely not the last.

They use data from the field to determine importance.

And the report is for finding the optimum cartridge for law enforcement departments/agencies. Not every citizen in the country.




Travis

In another 10 years, there will be another "stunning revelation" of some sort, saying bigger is better, and all the previous reports were wrong. It's a goobermint entity, it's bound to eff up whatever it's talking about.


I don't own any 9mms currently, so I guess I'll just stick with that old Colt pistol that is working well enough. It's not a 9mm, so I guess I'll be undergunned a bit, but I can shoot that thing, so I'll muddle thru with my .45 for awhile longer, and just hit what I'm shooting at.

I've comfortably carried a lot of different 9mms in the past, I like them, but I like the 1911 in my hand better. Not to say a BHP or CZ-75 isn't good, or even a G19, they all work if you shoot them straight.

None of them work worth a damn if you don't hit what you're shooting at. Maybe the Feds oughta work on THAT instead of the tools.

Dave

yeah, the F.B.I. source of all knowlege. Talking to one of them a few years back counting the days to retirement, at the time pretty close. He was carrying this little ankle semi auto with these 9mm pills i had to order out of state. Think about 30%over sammi spec for the caliber.
He was also a firearms instructor at quantico. After a class some of the new agents asked him what he meant by a "wheel gun." He was shaking his head.
I have nothing against the 9mm with the right loads in it.
But i think you are trying to find a common denominator that works for all kinds of people, not considering some might be more capable than others.

The "all kinds of people" in the FBI's case includes lawyers, accountants, linguists and IT types that most police agencies don't need in great quantities. While the "high end" people may do better with the 9 than other calibers, the real need probably is to get the non-gun/specialty-field types through the qualification.

I doubt they can write that in a published report.

It's the I'm a tough guy thing . Just like teaching firearms or self defence class who listen best men or women (as a general rule )

The army determined that in 1946. There has never been any test, study, or research that proved 45 was any better. But most people believed it so because they heard someone say it was. From a purely ballistic standpoint I believe 40 or 10mm has a slight edge over either 45 or 9mm. But not enough to offset the negatives.

You tend to do that when you're employing 20-30,000 armed personnel.




Travis

I just went back and reread this. The FBI is not saying the 9mm is the best cartridge for gunfighting. They are saying that considering all the factors that are important to their agency it is the best option for them.
Huge difference.

Almost.

They're speaking to law enforcement in general.



Travis

Heaven forbid a group of people who carry guns for a living should ever re-evaluate their choice in firearms or ammunition or even (gasp) change something.

We really should all be carrying flintlocks. I mean, if you change your opinion about something that's pretty suspicious.

LOL! Gun forum people probably change things much more frequently than the FBI.

I remember when they thought a 2.5" Model 66 S&W
was the cats ass.
whelennut

MontanaMan,

thank you for the good words. i enjoy reading your very informative writings on the 1911's...


Sarge, as always--a well written post.


while not necessarily applicable to the given topic--i thought i might share these thoughts:


without a doubt, most will agree that hangunners using decent 9 mm rigs do better in speed and precision than with .40 S&W or .45 auto. (of course those same handgunners do better with the .22 LR given a respectable rig, such as a High Standard, Ruger mk2, Beretta Jaguar, etc.--a cartridge that can be "sufficient"--yet not ideal).

i consider the 9 mm a fine rig for CC, and like the 9 mm rigs alot--especially the H&K p7 m13 platform. without a doubt it is my favorite handgun cartridge to go out to the range with.

i've little use, or respect for the .40 S&W--in my mind an "answer" to a problem that didn't exist. the round is hard on rigs, and in my experience is not very accurate at the unusual "longer handgun ranges" of 35--50 yards.

while most self defense rigs are likely to be utilized at the shorter ranges of about 3--12 yards, i think it is important to have some level of accurate capability with the rigs--out to 35 yards, and even 50 yards (refrain from the "that's what a rifle is for" type of comments).

over the years, i've noted that at the 50 yard line if firing at either a paper plate, or a milk jug--i can make fairly consistent hits with a cross section of various .45 auto rigs. my success with the 9 mm is less frequent--in fact, i've found that the plate or jug needs to be at the 35 yard line for near equal accuracy. with the .40 S&W the success rate is much lower yet.

i find the .45 auto to be the most accurate of the 3 cartridges, and the round is fairly easy on rigs. if toted in a H&K USP, loads can be increased, to some advantages in some situations--ie., in the woods settings, etc.

i don't concern myself too much with the "goblins", and whether or not the 9 mm is adequate. most informed handgunners know that it can be sufficient. it's the big, aggressive dogs (and in wood's settings, other critters), that concern me--one only has to be bitten once by an aggressive dog to fully understand this--for they can cause significant injury.

in the mid 1960's, i was bitten by a dog out in the country. a fair amount of damage to my leg, requiring a visit to the ER. i was the 4th victim to that dog, and subsequently, the dog was ordered to be put down. this bite still causes some problems today--nearly 50 years later.

in the 60's it was German Shepherds that were popular, in the 70's it was the Dobermans, the 80's and 90's the Rottwielers--and today--the Pit Bulls (read that "land sharks"), and Canarios, etc. while on a walk the other night, i saw 3 Pits in a half hour's time. last night a person pulled up across the street and got out with a large Pit--he had a hold on the collar, but it was lunging, trying to get loose from him to get at the neighbor's cat that the dog spotted in the hedge.

my oldest brother just retired from 3+ decades in LE. he mentioned that large, aggressive dogs were often an issue for them. while it may not be a real significant, pressing issue, if a handgun is needed for defense/protection, in my opinion i believe that an indivdual CC citizen--or LEO--is likely to do better in a situation involving the bigger attacking dogs when launching somewhat heavier, bigger diameter pills...and this is at least one reason why i prefer the .45 auto to the 9 mm...

000 for me, bigger is better.

Before auto pistols were dead nuts reliable, and before they had big double stack mags, and before there were striker fired auto pistols that met both criteria, the 2.5" Model 66 was just that compared to what else was available.

ah, still is.

or buy a duplex round.
we were making these 30 years ago, a 50caliber ball from a hawkins with birdshot packed around it.
quite impressive

Agreed. The 3" round butt 13/65 is even more so.

a lot of it depends on skill level, and equipping many people is not the same as one person.
I have a friend that use to shoot probably 50k a year of handgun ammo, a lot of it in competition. He took rob leatham one time. He favors a 1911 38super by the way.
but i have seen him with a k frame, draw and hit six 8inch targets right around a second for the whole thing. Maybe a little more. it was/is pretty impressive with what one could do. if things are just right.
I have gone on road trips with him to hunt. Mostly he had a little jframe five shot. I wouldn't want to be in front of him. but he is the exception.

Yes the army did tests in 1904 to determine the best caliber for a sidearm.


thompson-Lagarde tests

Yes, and the 9mm aint it. In fact w hardball (which is all we were allowed to use even today, the Guards we have at our bases still use 9mm ball) our guys in the sand were scurrying around for old 45 out of the Crane Indiana arsenal. While it may well be a suitable caliber with modern ammo, the whole reason the FBI went to the 10MM (then downgraded to the 40 S&W aka 10mm "light" because of females) was after the infamous Miami shootout where the agents had 9mm which proved to be a failure. I believe I'l stick to 45 ACP or 357 SIG.

A civilian has different needs than LE.
I can't imagine protecting my life from someone 50 yds away. If somebody is in my house they would be within wrestling distance. Accuracy at 50 yds is not even an issue.
I don't have a radio to call for backup nor do I wear a bullet proof vest.
Rather than shoot a small caliber pistol 15 times
I would rather try to incapacitate them with a .45
with the first shot. The volley fire concept is great on TV I don't want to get involved in that kind of a gun battle.
In Minnesota we are told we need to be a "reluctant participant" otherwise we can go to jail. Most of my time is spent where the risk level is so low that I feel good carrying a J frame. If the situation gets so bad the J frame is not enough, hand me a 12 gauge.

Weren't they using Silvertips in their 9mm autos? Modern designs corrected the faults of the 9mm.

How 'bout the best of both worlds. A 3" S&W model 19

I just had an opportunity to watch the guys at Hornady run their Critical Duty ammo and a bunch of "audience" ammo through the FBI protocol test (bare gel, cloth, plywood, wallboard, steel, and glass) through FBI formula gelatin and came away rather impressed that companies can design ammo that can perform pretty evenly in jello after passing through all the different barriers. The other impressive thing was that the variations in results between 9mm, .40 and .45 were rather negligible. So, yeah, for self defense, all things being equal, the ammo you shoot the bestest and the fastest would be the better ammo to use.

None of the ammo other than the Critical Duty was as consistent, but a lot of it was close enough for me. I was fine with .45 230 grain Gold Dots fired from service length barrel and an XDs 3.3" although they technically did not "pass" all the FBI tests. Same with .40 180 grain Gold Dots out of a Glock 35. I also was fine with the standard velocity 9mm 124 Gold Dot out of a Glock 17 and a 9mm 147 grain Winchester XST out of a service length barrel, although they technically did not "pass" all 6 tests. I also was fine with a standard velocity 9mm 124 Gold Dot fired out of a S&W Shield on the clothed gelatin test, which is a standard self defense scenario.

Deer, elk, lions and bears are a different story, and wallboard, steel and windshield barrier tests don’t sound too relevant, nor do concerns about overpenetration.

There was a failure of one Winchester Silvertip. And that's questionable since the FBI didn't have any penetration requirements prior to 1986. But it was a very convenient scapegoat for the FBI who kinda had two guys kinda hand them their arses. By today's standards that 115 grain Silvertip in in adequate. But now with modern 124+P and 147's the 9mm routinely out-penetrates the .45 ACP.

The 9mm makes sense for the FBI, but it doesn't mean it makes sense for everyone. I still carry a .45 ACP.

It makes sense if you are doing it "for the women"... I just read and talk face to face w guys that were THERE on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan and they tell me the 9 SUCKS. Not to mention JWP's link above.. 9mm is for girls...

that is just about it. forget it only holds six rounds, rarely would one want more, and with that 3, it ain't gonna take a lot of time to put another six in.

A lot of people keep repeating that the 9 out penetrates the 45, but it is not true. I shoot both and I have teste 124 grain +P against the 220 critical duty and the 9 does not out penetrate the 45 and the 45 leaves a larger diameter hole no question.
Both in wood and steel the 9 did not out penetrate the 45.

Bullets have helped perform better both and the 45 didn't shrink.

Kind of interesting in talking to a green beanie a few years ago having spent time in both places. He said the issues with the beretta's was keeping them clean and the mags, so he went to a hi power, then spent the last four months with a glock 17. It worked all the time. And they were not using ball ammo. He said those jacketed rounds worked just fine.
A good friend of mine, marine, spent a lot of time on door knocker duty in both places. They would routinely replace ball on leaving the wire, and replaced with winchester jacketed stuff bought in the bazaars. Worked just fine. Then replaced with ball when they came back in. He is really a .45 guy too by the way.

I have never seen a .45 ACP out-penetrae a 147 9mm, and I've shot into several different mediums. I don't know about the 124gr +P other than test reports I've seen because the +P doesn't much interest me. So our experiences differ on the 147 specifically. I've had more than one 147 out penetrate a .44 mag 240 grain JHP.

FYI, one thing the Hornady guy said was that the twist rate on 9mm military guns was 1 in 16 to get the ball ammo to try to yaw before striking while the optimum twist rate in handguns shooting 9mm is 1 in 10, which is what Glocks use in that caliber (and .357 and .40).

Sweet! Both yours?

I didn't mention 147 grain because I haven't gotten around to testing it adequately.

The 9mm didn't fail in Miami. The 9mm was a killing shot, he just kept fighting. Morales ended the fight with a .357 mag with 38 spcl +P 158gr lead hollow points IIRC. The FBI didn't want to admit the agents were unprepared for a major gunfight. When the switched the move was to the 9mm with Win. 147gr hollow points. When they didn't expand the FBI complained to Winchester and the reply was, "they are target bullets we developed for the Navy SEALS for their sub sonic ammo, they are not designed to expand". The the 10mm was the dream cartridge. The the 40 S&W. Now it's the 9mm.

The 9mm failed to reach the heart on a 6'-1"" 170 pound felon. That's a failure in my book.

I thought it was a .38 Special snub nose that stopped the fight.

Are you using FMJ in both 9mm and .45 acp,

No, Fmj in either 124 +P jhp XTP in the 9 and 220 critical duty hornady +P in the 45

In my opinion, not really a lot of real world difference between .38 spl, .40, 9mm, and .45. Kinda like comparing real world difference between .308, 30.06, .270, .243 etc.

A bullet placed in the upper hydraulics will stop someone in a few moments. A round in the head or spine will stop them a lot faster.

My experience is with a .38 spl 158gr SWCHP at about 60 feet to the chest, and a .40 180 grain Gold Dot at 1 foot to the chest. Same result, they died. Neither died appreciably faster.

thought i might paste in this old post made on May 29, 2014 in the "9mm vs the .45 acp" thread.

a somewhat unusual analogy, but perhaps applicable here:




about 20 years ago a good friend of mine was involved in a head-on collision. there were three other people in the vehicle that he was driving. at the time he weighed about 275 pounds. at the sledgehammer impact, momentum propelled him forward--and though wearing a seat belt, the seat was ripped out of the floor, and he hit the windshield. for some of the occupants, there were life threating injuries involved--if i recall correctly, a broken neck, a punctured heart/aorta, etc.

the rig that drifted into their lane and hit them was a dinky subaru traveling about 50 mph...

whether it's a small car traveling 65 mph, or a several ton dump truck doing 45 mph--either way--there are going to be significant injuries...


both of these self defense handgun rounds are very capable--and each has it's own particular sterling virtues.

yet in my thinking--within the realm of the self defense handgun--velocity disparity is somewhat minimal--and subsequently, there is something about mass/size here that cannot be ignored...






and the end of this post from July 12, 2014 in the "U.S. Military and .45 ACP" thread;




regarding the potential for penetration on car doors--i'll prefer the heavy .45 auto pills with appropriate construction (rather than the 9 mm)...

One other factor that comes into play is an anti-terrorism focus, where a line officer (or agent) may have to head shoot a suicide bomber, or someone equipped with body armor.

A hit in the brain with a 9mm, or .40 will be about the same, it's just that hit has to be made, and maybe a bit less recoil will assist some shooters in making it.

^^^This^^^ Speaks volumes to me.

I'll stick with my 45acp or, if I feel the need for more rounds, one of my Glocks in .357 sig or 10mm.

I have never been in a gun fight nor do I want to be. Having said that if I was, I don't think my shooting would be as good as at the range i.e.breathing stance...... Therefore I would opt for a 40, 10, 45, or 357 mag or sig.

If your in the line of work to deal with/watch people, you will realize that there are some huge people out there. Some are just fat, others are well muscled. Some people are like twigs. The 9 might be fine sometimes but I don't think it's the best for every situation.

Right now my 10 is stoked with 125 grain fragmenting ammo.

I think it is sad that men have to carry a 9mm just so that females can qualify. PC bullshit if you ask me.

It was a snub 357 with 38 +P lead hollow points. I went back and corrected my post.

I've personally seen a bonded .223 load (the same load that I shot end to end on several hogs) fail to penetrate to a guy's heart after passing through his left arm.

Stuff happens. And samples of one, or even a few, aren't valid. That's why I give weight to a study that considered an enormous amount of data rather than "well, one time....." stories.

I think it's sad that men are so wrapped up in their own machismo that they refuse to carry a "girl's gun".

And how did it "suck"?

How did the 9mm stack up against .40s and .45s in side by side comparison?

What was the sample size for each caliber?

What loads were they using? Because if they weren't the loads the FBI considered or what I'll carry, I couldn't give a flip less about somebody's "one time at band camp" stories.

Blue, I believe you, and yes, it's a great study. And lots of things can happen when a bullet hits flesh and bone, and not all of them are good.

But I've also killed a lot of feral hogs here at the ranch with my Glocks in .357 Sig & 10mm. And more than a few with a .45 out of a 1911. Have yet to have one fail me. That being said, I don't use my 9mm's on hogs. And I prefer the .223 with Winchester's new 64 ? grain hog bullet.

One stop shots, huh?

In other news, there's a new study out that shows a direct correlation between small penises and a reluctance to carry a "9mm girl gun".

That's TFF! Sounds like you've got way too much time on your hand! Having fun shooting up all that free ammo every day?

Dude I'm busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. But I'm doing what I can, lol.

Cool! Hope your having lots of fun! I'm sure it beats riding a bike in this dadgum heat.

There's also a correlation of law enforcement agencies being victims of salesmen, economy and false premises.

Don't get me wrong, Speer makes decent products.....

And science and facts and statistics and math.

Stupid facts always messing up our pre-conceived notions......

Your department uses Speer/ATK?

ATK doesn't make missiles.

Okay...

http://www.orbitalatk.com/defense-systems/missile-products/

Vista Outdoor (formerly ATK) owns....
Bushnell
Weaver
Simmons
Millet
Tasco
Bolle
Serengeti
Blackhawk
RCBS
Speer Bullets
Alliant Powder
Champion
Butler Creek
Uncle Mikes
Primos
Hoppes
Gunslick
Outers
Federal Premium Ammo
CCI
Speer
Blazer
Estate Cartridge
Savage Arms
Camelbak

So if you're wondering if a law enforcement / government agency uses Vista Outdoor products, the answer is almost certainly "yes".

Just like nearly any reloader, shooter, hunter or hiker uses Vista Outdoor products. Because they're so susceptible to those tricky salesmen.

Been going on ever since there have been LE agencies and salesmen. When you add the fact that LE is also one of the most fad-driven elements of the market, any screw up turns into a big circular Stooge-slap with a built-in cheer-leading section.

One shot stops!!!!!

Could have easily been Hornady, weren't for any pre-conceived notions....

And McDonalds has the best hamburgers, because science, statistics and math says so.

"Bonded expanding bullets save innocent bystanders!"

They always have used data collected from field incidents. They have previously come up with quite different results. The selection of data parameters factored in influences the outcome of the result.

The fbi is a large and dynamic agency with a diverse cadre. I believe that selection of the 9mm for them is common sense. At least for today.
That said, common sense is a hard commodity to assign a data point to. They needed a study to back them up, and they are very good at achieving that end.

Very well stated.

One theme that's consistent is that 115 grain expanding 9mm lead core bullets are not good penetrators it's been demonstrated over and over and over.

You obviously have not read the report.

Or if you have, you ignored every piece of information presented.




Travis

Of course they have. There's new data.




Travis

Next question

Your data isn't complete until you ask all the surviving people shot with a 9mm, how much it hurt and if they would rather have been shot with something else...

The criteria for this justification was 12"-18".

(This is not a penis joke.)




Travis

Afghanistan and Iraq were "one time at band camp"? seriously? See JWP's link on US Army tests on the 9 v 45. Pretty convincing. And BTW, it is a fact the FBI originally chose the 10mm that later led to the 40 S&W because of the female issue and recoil, ergo the 40 was an accommodation for the females and since the 9 recoils even less, well penis envy notwithstanding, there you are.

Sorry my Cuban friend, but that is probably the least convincing "test" you could possibly present.




Travis

How do you figure? The link I posted doesn't do justice to the tests, first hand reports. The cadavers were shot to also find out the ability to break bone and larger diameter projectiles are more likely to break bone rather than simply shooting a hole through the bone.

Back in the very early 20th Century the Germans figured out that a flat point FMJ had far better shocking and wound producing capabilities than any round nose bullet. Even a small flat meplat was better than any round nose and the bullet they used wouldn't even be considered a flat point today, more of a truncated cone.

No one in their right mind goes hunting today with a round nose cast bullet but lots of folks put down game of all sizes with flat nose Keith or LBT styles.

I've always wondered why the military never took that route?

Well for one thing, it's from 1904.

For another, it plainly stated the results of shooting living cows were all over the map, but they all just sorta decided the 45 seemed to work the best.

Lastly, it seems centered around one aspect of cartridge selection. As opposed to the totality of all circumstances surrounding what law enforcement personnel should weigh when selecting a cartridge.



Travis

As I posted the article doesn't do the testing justice. Nothing has shrunk or increased since then. Loads are faster and better today for all caliber so not just some.

I'll concede that a .45 caliber bullet is larger than a .35 caliber bullet.

As does the FBI report.




Travis

For the most part, yes. Because the stories almost always come from people with no actual field experience that are second hand at best and have no basis in anything resembling scientific, unbiased testing. Until I hear the basis for an opinion from "the sandbox" I treat them all as band camp stories.

You're welcome to prove me wrong by providing answers to the very simple questions that would dispel all doubts about whether or not someone should trust the source.

And I did see the link from the test ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN YEARS AGO.

I also saw a report from 1951 about there not being a vaccine for polio. And a study from 1928 that said penicillin didn't exist.

Maybe, just maybe things have changed since NINETEENFREAKINGOHFOUR.

+1.

FMJ the 45 will win over the nine, HP Ammo today not so much.

What was true then is true now as JWP alluded to in the previous post. Both cartridges have evolved since then with better and even faster loadings for both.

Have you personally compared the 2, or just repeating what you heard? When I compare the 2 with modern ammo the 45 comes out on top in penetration and diameter of wound produced. Granted not by much in the penetration department but it is still the larger of the 2, even with JHPs

That is also what the FBI test concluded.




Travis

The 9mm has the advantage in magazine capacity which is real advantage, but those that think it equals or exceeds the 45 in teriminsl performance are in fantasy land.
I am thinking of a XD in 9mm it will take a 19 round mag, that is a definate advantage in fire power no doubt. The 45 can be had a 14 round capacity which ain't bad.

It is not a matter of equaling or exceeding the performance of a 45. It is a matter of using data collected from the field to determine what is required of a cartridge for the purposes of law enforcement personnel.

The report explains that 12-18" of penetration was necessary. It explains that certain 9mm loadings meet or exceed this requirement. It also explains some .40 cal ammunition does not.

It also explains that 70-80% of shots fired by law enforcement personnel in deadly force situations are misses. Which means more bullets are always better than less bullets.

It also explains that accuracy is paramount above all else. And that the lighter recoiling cartridge improves the speed and accuracy of ALL pistol shooters.

If anybody has a valid argument against any of these key points, feel free to urinate up that rope.




Travis

The Thompson-LaGarde tests were done with non-expanding bullets and it's generally recognized as nearly difinitive for non-expanding bullets; even 100 years later. The ONLY change has been development of the 9mm which has increased terminal and barrier penetration only; pretty much nothing else has changed with non-expanding handgun bullets in the past 100 years. Sure there have been some exotic developments, but no major military uses such ammunition so it's kind of a moot point.

JWP was talking about non-expanding ammunition and for that, the Thompson-LaGarde tests were pretty darned good; so much so that no one has felt the need to re-do them. And ballistic gelatin tests have really just confirmed Thompson-LaGarde.

Now when we get to expanding, the whole world changes.

That's the fist I've ever heard of the .40 under performing in penetration, that was always it's strong suit...well, at least with the 180's.

Other than that, I'd say you're spot on.

All of that is very true.

I'm just re-writing the findings of the report.




Travis

Penetration is a lot about the bullet, as much or more so than the cartridge.

We need to find a way to calm down our Cuban friend...




Travis

If the argument is couched solely on what you've written above, then there is no point of contention. It still does not INVALIDATE the fact that a 45 ACP is a superior cartridge OR the fact the 40 S&W was designed in response to the 10s heavy recoil and female agents, and the 9mm recoils even less.

For the purposes of law enforcement, the .45 is inferior.

As far as 9mm vs. 10mm, I invite you to shoot a qualification with a 9mm. Then shoot it the next week with full-tilt 10mm's.

Be sure and video your vagina hitting the deck by the time you get to the 25yd line.



Travis

That's not why the .40 was designed. The .40 was designed to meet a specific ballistic standard which the standard 10mm greatly exceeded. Although the 10mm hit the market first, the .40 S&W had been in development prior to the 10mm. When the FBI had Federal download the 10mm to the FBI round, S&W pleaded with the FBI to hold off for the 4006 which was nearly finished in development, but the FBI jumped the gun (no pun intended) and adopted the 1076.

The .40 S&W was developed to be a modern .38/40, NOT a watered down 10mm, it was always that way and had nothing to do with the 10mm and women. The .40 S&W exists because it provides a specific performance requirement and fits in a 9mm sized pistol.

Of course for LE the 9 is superior for LE, given the renowned record of LEOs and marksmanship, then spray and pray becomes central to their survival. Real combat has time and again proven the superiority of heavier bullets and stopping the enemy (as in for example, the various iterations we've had to go through with the 5.56, not to mention what combat veterans like ET have reported when up against the 7.62X39). Along those lines, I've spoken many times with a retired Army 0-6 Ranger who was a proponent of the M-16 because in his opinion it weighed much less than the 14 AND you could carry a hell of a lot more ammo so again in that regard the smaller, lighter caliber is better. Still he recognized the 7/62X51 as much superior as a man stopper and ability to penetrate

It also doesn't alter the fact of the timeline development of the 10 and the 40 and the reasons why. One does have to have the intellectual flexibility to take the discussion into separate levels though as in for example, the 45 in both the lab and real life has proven to be the superior cartridge when it comes to stopping power. Now, when other relevant data is plugged into the equation (as in officer un-marksmanship) then a belt-fed 9 is obviously the better tool.

Kevin, I din't imagine the female issue, then again I don't have the time to research it, but it looks like you have, so that works for me.

The first “10mm” was the .40 G&A and was actually much more like a .40 S&W. It was a converted Browning Hi Power (so short case, not the longer 10mm case). Barrel was made by Bar-Sto and RCBS made the dies. Cases were made from cut down .224 Weatherby Magnum cases and it even headspaced off of the belt. The original ballistics was nearly identical to what we have now, 180 grain bullet at 1,000fps (today’s load is typically 950fps).

Then near the end of the ‘70’s the cartridge broke off into two camps. One went on to develop the 10mm, the other created the “centimeter” cartridge by holding to the original concept of a modern .38/40; this would eventually be the .40 S&W cartridge.

So in reality, the 10mm cartridge was created from the .40 S&W, not the other way around.

Once someone has .45 on the brain, you're better off trying to convince a black person O.J. was guilty than even mentioning 9mm in the same sentence.

If you read No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan who was a Border Patrol agent for 30 years, he has lots of "band camp stories".
He also describes the ideal law enforcement handgun which would either be a revolver in 41 magnum or a 10mm auto. He did not mention the size of his penis.
I used to like to listen to band camp stories when I was pulling targets at rifle matches.
I never heard a cop say he wishes they would let him carry a smaller pistol so he could shoot faster and more accurately.

bullshit...

He also accidentally shot a guy.

Feel free to shoot a 70ish round course of fire with your 41 magnum. Or better yet, enter an IDPA match with it, and compare your scores to the guys shooting 9mm's.

You haven't met many cops.



Travis

Any cop who doesn't say that is retarded.

I'd love to see your evidence showing that the 9mm loads didn't meet or exceed the penetration criteria, why having less bullets in a gunfight is advantageous, and that heavier recoil is superior to lighter recoil when shooting for time.



Travis

Now, what was so difficult about that?




Travis

I always enjoyed bowling pin matches.
The favorite memory was when some kid with a Glock fired his entire payload and then left five pins standing. What a hoot.

I never said anything to the contrary, once the "for LEO" was inserted into the equation for all the reasons stated by you and of course ME.

You Cubans have a horrible temper.




Dave

I would not be surprised to learn most Minnesotan's can't shoot worth a schit.




Travis

According to your statistics most cops can't either. (70-80% misses.)
I am not LE but I have watched them qualify at the local gun club. It is amusing.
I don't think those guys that carry huge race guns firing practical pistol matches have any relation to a civilian using a pistol for home defense.
Whoever fires the first accurate shot wins.
I have never heard of a self defense shooting involving 70 rounds.
My strategy would be to answer with a 12 gauge not a pistol. (Reluctantly) Judges are really touchy in Minnesota.

They're not my statistics.



Travis

Your reference to "huge race guns" takes the cake for campfire ignorance, and that says a lot.

"Whoever fires the first accurate shot wins" is a doozy as well.




Travis

Unless it's a nine, in which case it will be totally ineffective while I fire a one shot stop from my .45-1904Megaladon.

I laugh at operator error too!

I really enjoy Handgun forum debates, bonus points for caliber controversy. Ayoob quotes were missing but Jordan trumps him anyway. All experienced gunfighters strive to shoot slower and carry less ammo.

mike r

and all of this makes me feel so inaedequate when i went out in the desert today with a 696 .44 special as a sidearm. And only five shots. The horror of it all.

Can I ask what in the holy fugk that has to do with the FBI's findings?




Dave

Compelling response.





Travis

Can I ask what the fbi's findings have to do with anything? Is this the same fbi that once declared there was "no evidence" of organized crime in the U.S.?
These are people who begin with a position or supposition and build a case to support it. It's how they roll. It's what they do...

New boss, new day, they shuffle the cards and come up with new findings.
They could convict Mother Theresa if they were directed to do so...

Duh! I mean, don't you watch I love Lucy?
Incidentally, Desi's mother Amparo was Godmother to my dad. NOSHIT!

Last I heard, darn near everybody agreed that handgun rounds do not instantly stop bad guys, absent a CNS hit, or a major broken bone hit. So the "stopping agent" is tissue damage and blood loss.

As long as penetration is adequate, why would a bigger hole not be desirable?

...and the loaded AK on the back floor.... :-)

Because you can make smaller holes faster and more accurately.

And a smaller hole made fast enough beats a big hole that was made too slowly.

And a more accurate shot increases your odds of a CNS hit.

Then please do expound on your findings.

What calibers and loads have you extensively tested, which barriers did you test them through, how far did those rounds penetrate, how much weight did they retain, what did the wound cavity look like?

What weapons did you test them in, what were the result of your accuracy testing, what were the differences in time for accurate follow up shots between the various calibers tested, how did the shooters' physical attributes contribute to your findings, how did the shooters' experience levels contribute to the results?

Of course you can!

It has to do with handguns. Which, based on your posts, you don't have much experience with.





Not sure. I'm not a FBI historian. Sounds like a fun hobby though.



Travis

You're not just Cuban. You're a scorching-Cuban.



Travis

Sorry, should have clarified. ATK doesn't make the missiles that I shoot from my jet.

It would be. If the only things you were weighing are wound diameter.

But the FBI's findings regarding wound diameter were the same as JWP's and not enough to outweigh the shootability of the 9mm and extra magazine capacity.





Travis

FBI-We want to find out which car most efficiently reaches 60mph in 6 seconds.

Campfire Guru-My grandpa drove a car a 100 years ago that went 60mph.

FBI-Car#1 reaches 60mph in 6 seconds burning the least amount of fuel, with the most comfortable ride and was the easiest to safely drive.

Campfire Guru-But Car#2 does it in 5.9 seconds.....with no power steering and it slides all over the road and is wildly dangerous for half the drivers in the world.

FBI-Yes, Car#2 is faster. But that speed comes at a price. Do you understand cause and effect?

Campfire Guru-Did you not hear me???? I said 5.9 SECONDS!!!!

FBI-Have you ever tested both cars side by side to see which best accomplishes the goal?

Campfire Guru-So YOU'RE telling ME that my grandpa was a queer for pulling a trailer with Truck#3?

FBI-What are you even talking about? We're testing the speed efficiency of cars reaching 60mph and set 6 seconds as our benchmark.

Campfire Guru-A real man could keep any car on the road. I can. I did it one time last year.

FBI-Of course you can. But you could drive Car#1 and still accomplish your goal, but without as much drama or problems for yourself.

Campfire Guru-Don't tell me about your stupid race car.

FBI-It's not a race car, it's just a regular car. But it more efficiently accomplishes the same goal as Car#2.

Campfire Guru-Do you have any idea how large my penis is? I can drive ANY CAR.

FBI-That really has nothing to do with our research.

Campfire Guru-If you ever call my grandpa a queer again I'll shoot you with my bullets from 1904.

I'm curious..... How many people who are against a switch to 9mm own and regularly shoot with a shot timer?

I'm dying fugking laughing right now....

You're an ass hole.




Travis

I am not, in any wise, against the 9mm cartridge. My favorite pistol of all time was a 9mm H&K p9s.

I am against running willy nilly to a standard set by an agenda driven institution like the fbi. If directed, they will change their stance tomorrow, and proclaim the new stance with all the gravitas they can muster.

All of the talk of arming to the least common denominator (women) is pure groundless speculation. The institution has it's aims and goals, and the 9mm is far and away the most common sense round for a diversely staffed institution, if said outfit needs a single cartridge.

None of this means that the 9mm is the best overall cartridge for any other circumstance.

No sheet. That was funny.

Well said.

Thank you.

No doubt about it, the FBI has created standards for recommending the 38 Super and 38-44 for penetrating cars, 125gr 357 Mags, 38 Auto's, 200gr 38 Special loads, 38 158LSWCHP 38 Specials, +P 38's, +P+ 38's, 9mms with light bullets, 9mm's with heavies, midweights, the 10mm, the 40 and now reasons to make the 9mm "best" again, or at least recommended, according to their tests.

Did the 357 Sig have their fancy for awhile?

I don't know if they've ever found a decent enough excuse to make a 45 the "best" over the years, but I'm sure if they did a good portion of agencies and ammunition makers would heed the call.

A 2,000 dollar toilet seat comes to mind. Maybe the next "best" thing will be a hot 32 or 22; I could really care less, but the gospel according to the FBI has been a wandering goatphuck as long as there's been an FBI in regards to sidearms.

That was way too funny, I don't ever share campfire stuff with my wife, but had to show her that.

Incidently she IS a cop who is in the process of switching (at her request) from carrying a 40 to a 9mm because she shoots it more accuratly, more quickly, and more comfortably.

This is just GOOD STUFF. You can't get this just anywhere.

Quite possibly the best internet response I've ever read. Rolling here...

Simply hilarious...

Two to the Chest, one to the Head.

Practice that using a shot timer, and see how fast you can do it with different calibers.

Then add in some movement by you the shooter trying to get to cover, and the target who is trying to avoid getting shot. Lastly try to mentally simulate getting shot at while doing it.

Then and only then can you complain about a 70% miss rate by cops involved in real world situations.

And then maybe you can see how if that that third shot (to the head) is the deal breaker, you would want a firearm/round combo that would allow you do it as fast as possible.

Lastly, Turn Off the Lights, and try it in darkness while trying to hold a flashlight.

Then the 9mm, maybe not even in an auto, is "best" for most people, both genders included.

That's how f&%king stupid the semantics are...twenty years ago the FBI, not anyone on this thread, deemed a more powerful round was needed, with similar statistics and lab tests about how it was "best".

Bad example.

I think the FBI was behind Crystal Pepsi....

I never read the FBI's report that concluded the 10mm was a good choice.

But I have read this one and it is difficult to argue with any of the points that are made in it.




Travis

The facts were different then, I.e., bullet technology wasn't as advanced. The terminal effect of a 9mm of modern design is superior to what it was then, altering the balance in its favor, all factors considered.

Great post and consistent with my recollection of the Bureau's 'next big thing' cartridge selections over the past 35 years. After you choose 'the best' so many times, 'best' becomes meaningless. And Jesus... split times in a gunfight? Gunfights are won by people able to make the decision to shoot an [bleep] right now, right well and with something big enough to settle their hash ASAP.

The Bureau has enough scraps under their belt to know this, as do many other outfits. There is however a constant battle between those who insist on imparting skill at arms and those who insist on qualifying everybody at the lowest possible cost.

I believe they adopted it, then decided it was too much; it was also about the time they decided a cartridge standardization was needed.

Jesus, a more substantial 32 or even a 30 should get dreamt up ASAP if we are hedging bets on low recoil expanding rounds.

The bottom line is that "best" is pretty subjective.

Of this, there is no arguing.

Facts haven't changed.

Most people can hit better with smaller, lower recoiling rounds. They can also increase the odds of hitting with round count.

I don't think the FBI has gone small enough to get diminishing returns.

If pressed, most people shoot guns that fit them well, devoid of a slide moving toward their face, better...since this matter of recoil and target re-acquisition matters now.

LOL

He do have a point, don't he?

If the FBI statistics don't apply, it doesn't exist.

That's pretty much what this entire thread is about.

The "best" mindset or skill level needn't apply.

If his point is "I don't understand what split times are", then yes.

Shooting someone "right now and well" involves hitting them quickly and accurately. And since "gunfights" involve shooting people more than once.....I guess split times are relevant.

That's not the first time that "split times" have been mocked here. And it's only because of the lingo, which I find absolutely absurd. If you replaced "split time" with "shootin' yer smoke wagon real fast and hittin' wut yer aimin' at" then everybody would be on board.

You're right.

The best shooters will benefit less from reduced recoil because they're good enough to compensate.

But the less skilled you are as a shooter, the more you'll benefit from switching to a 9mm from something bigger. And that's why the FBI is recommending 9s to LE agencies, who employ people of all shapes and sizes and abilities. And rightfully so.
_____________________________________________

But apparently every swinging dick on the campfire is so advanced that they can shoot .40s and .45s and 9s all equally.

Which I think is hilarious.

You're wanting a needless and irrelevant fight, again. Carry on.

LOL, I also think it's hilarious that every time you step on your dick then whatever the topic is becomes irrelevant.

Explain to me how I stepped on my dick by stating that the Sarge had a point when he stated that gunfights are won by folks that have the cojones to shoot a SOB right damned now, shoot them well, and decisively?

Dithering around gets your dead, no matter how quick your split times, or how large your pistol/cartridge. That was the Sarge's point, and that's what I agreed with. Now, how is that stepping on my dick?

Or, is that not relevant in Tejas?

Because that's not ALL he said, duh.

His point was that:
1-Mock split times.
2-Say that shooting real fast was important.

THEY'RE THE SAME THING. So when he mocked what he said was so important I think he's either stupid or just doesn't understand what he's talking about.

And when you say that SMO not making any sense is SMO having a good point, that's you stepping on your dick.
_______________________________________



Yeah, that's why split times (shooting real fast.....not dithering) are important.

You jokers are saying "split times matter" in different words but are too dense to realize it.



LOL, cue the standard VANimrod "when all else fails" response.

The FBI findings and conclusions are aimed at finding the "best" tool for the "average" LEO. Unfortunately that "average" officer is typically one with minimal experience with firearms, minimal training, almost non-existent practice time and comes in all sizes including women and smaller men.

When viewed in this light it may well be that the 9mm is the best weapon for qualifying ALL officers with a minimal proficiency in a minimal amount of time.

That does not mean the 9mm is more effective in the hands of an experienced shooter who practices regularly. However, in the real world "most" officers do not practice enough to become proficient with any but the minimal effective firearms.

I have worked in law enforcement and can say from experience the typical officer can not handle more than 9mm recoil. A .45 or .40 might be marginally more effective in theory, but the added recoil makes that slight advantage meaningless if you can't hit what you are aiming at. The additional amount of rounds in a 9mm pistol are very important when 70% of your shots are misses. When your method is "spray and pray", you need a lot of rounds to spray around.

My own "testing" of the various rounds has been largely against deer and hogs (roughly the same size as a man) and the larger rounds DO have a definite advantage....on average. The largest rounds are not ALWAYS effective, nor are the smallest rounds ALWAYS ineffective.

In my experience the .45 is probably the "best" service round (for those with enough experience to handle the recoil) as it hits harder and kills effectively. The .40 is effective but the recoil is excessive in the smaller framed guns it is typically chambered in. The 9mm is "almost" as effective as the .40 with less recoil than the .40 and a smaller framed gun than the typical .45. The 10mm is by far the "best" round but it will always come in a larger framed gun (which those with smaller hands will find objectionable) and has a recoil that very few can use as well as a .45. I have used the 9mm on game, but cannot say it is anywhere close to being "best" unless very carefully placed.

That's basically what the FBI has found. The 10mm is "great" but truly usable by a minority of officers. The .45 is great, but requires a frame that is still too large for some (with reduced magazine capacity). The .40 and 9mm are so close together in effectiveness to be equal.....but the 9mm wins in lowered recoil and magazine capacity.

Does that make the 9mm "best" for everyone....no. For those who practice enough and have hands large enough to handle the bigger frames, the .45 is more effective. The 10mm is definitely better, but only a very small number of officers can effectively deal with the size of the guns and increased recoil.

For "most" officers the 9mm is indeed the answer when a department has to deal with hundreds (or thousands) of different officers of various sizes and experience (or lack there of).

For those who can handle the bigger guns, they will likely be more effective. If for no other reason than because the shooters will have confidence in their weapon....and that plays a huge role in how effectively a gun is used. On the other hand if one is using a gun that does not fit and recoils at a level that they are not comfortable with....effectiveness goes out the window.

Hate to admit it, but the FBI just might be right that the 9mm is the "best" choice for all officers. I cannot agree with their conclusions that it is more effective but any hit is better than a miss with something bigger....and for the "typical" officer, that is often the choice that has to be made.

Huh? Eric, wtf are you talking about?

I've yet to mock "split times". I simply said that the Sarge had a point when he stated that a decisive shooter makes all the difference; everything else is moot.

You're hung up on defending split times, and I've no truck with that at all.

Carry on, though, as your ass is clearly on your shoulders over something. For a "giver", you sure do get torqued up about the strangest schit. It's beneath you, and that, friend, is a compliment.

Nothing screams hitting multiple times with greater ease than a mass produced, one size fits all 9mm auto with a schit trigger....unless trying the same with something larger/worse.

Better yet, make it a DAO....

Maybe if you were in charge of buying the duty ammo and going through the seminars you'd be as wise.

FBI "truths" aside, I'd bet most here shoot a wheelgun SA or DA better than they can an auto, regardless of cartridge, unless all they are accustomed to is a duty auto; which begs the question of getting accustomed to anything.

Evidently not what you're talking about, and I'll take your word about that. I'm pretty sure we're both screaming at each other about two different things. The "strange things" that we get twisted up about are only strange to those on the outside, in our minds they're always completely rational. But that's what happens without inflection I guess.

Apologies as appropriate, even if it's not needed.










Except to JohnW, I'm pretty sure he's still nuts.

Likely so. Apologies as appropriate as well, even if not needed either.

Will my 9mm actually kill anything?

No. They bounce off paper at 75 yards and only penetrate paper at 50 if you use FMJ.

Yes and so do bathtub falls. I predict the 2016 FBI Issue Handgun to be a robot pushing wheeled, claw-foot bathtub half full of soapy water. You simply ram the perp with it, he falls in and might even break his neck. They could assign one to teams of four agents to save money and simplify qualification.

The only 'split time' is if the perp's feet go opposite directions when he falls into the tub.

Yankin' yer chain, Blue

Something that keeps getting repeated just got me to wondering... One of the beliefs is that one will hit better in a gun fight with a smaller easier to control caliber. I am just wondering where the stats on that are...or if they even exist.

It isn't like the 9mm is a new kid on the block like the .40 S&W was. I just wonder if the FBI in their study of this matter pulled up a whole bunch of gun fights of similar distances with different calibers and determined if there was any wide disparity in the hit percentage.

When I was with Dallas PD in the 1970s and 80s we were allowed to carry any:
S&W, Colt or Browning Handgun with a 3-6.5" barrel.
9mm, .38 Super, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim (Investigators could also carry .380 ACP)

I knew people who carried every cartridge and knew officers who were in gun fights with 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum and .45 ACP. No one I knew ever missed because their gun was too powerful or difficult to control....and these were just "average" officers. Of the several hundred gun fights I knew of, and we averaged 80 officer involved shooting a year, I can only remember a few that went over three shots fired by the officer.

In the 1986 Miami FBI shootout the agents were equipped with the easiest to shoot guns and calibers made...9mm semis and .38 Specials being fired in .357s. They had been through the top LE instruction in the country. Three were FBI SWAT trained. Ever look at the hit count vs. number of rounds fired....
(leaving Mireles out)
6 rounds fired at 8'...one possible hit.
30 rounds fired at 30'...one hit, two possible
9 rounds fired at 30'...one hit
12 rounds fired at 35 yards...one possible hit
16 rounds fired at 35 yards....one possible hit
5 rounds fired at 40'...no hits


Instead of 36-50 round qualification courses where one just stands there and absorbs recoil, maybe instead each officer could be put in a shoot house with realistic targets at realistic distances and see what happens...

And if one reads the original study back in the late 1980s in the aftermath of Miami, one of the most important factors the panel found in handgun effectiveness was the perception of the officer carrying the gun/ammo combo. I don't see that addressed anywhere in the new study...

Just some thoughts...Bob

If you have a shooter that is struggling with a Glock, M&P, P2000, etc., they'll really fall to pieces if you put a revolver in their hands.

And thumbing hammers is for chicks.



Travis

Well, I can tell you that my 25ACP is a tack driver....

Still irrelevant. The ONE HUNDRED YEAR OLD tests were valid as they went to effects of particular calibers against a specific medium. Same for the various "one shot" stop statistics.

Fortunately, flave couched the argument in the context that made sense; more lead on target, faster and more precise bullet placement trumps less and bigger rounds and less accuracy, which goes to the issue of the "person" behind the weapon and their ability to hit what they aim at.

I believe the accuracy/speed difference was determined by having a wide range of shooters shoot courses of fire with a Glock in a .40, and a Glock in a 9mm.

Effectiveness of "caliber" was determined by field data as well as laboratory tests with a wide range of duty ammo in each chambering.

The report doesn't really pull any punches regarding previous "data." It pretty much says everything previously determined is a huge hunk of schit.

The FBI is everybody's favorite whipping boy and probably rightfully so. I'd by no means consider the report gospel, but I honestly can't find anything wrong with any of their conclusions.






Travis

LOL. You have a way with words.

Dollars spent to train, to equip, and to maintain proficiency within various law enforcement agencies will often become the dominant driving force behind the selection of a handgun and ammo for any particular department. What becomes the best option, at that time, for a particular department, does not necessarily make for "the best option" for you as an individual civilian.

Going on three decades in this business, I've seen, trained, and lived through most of these changes going back to the days of the old defunct revolver rounds. In recent times, "the best option" for my particular agency was a Sig Sauer and .357 sig Gold Dot ammo. It proved itself an outstanding choice, and in my personal opinion, has been the single best law enforcement duty pistol I've been issued in these last three decades. BUT, with the current costs and availability of .357 sig ammo, and with the great offers made by Glock and their top shelf customer service, it is cheaper to dump these fairly new Sig Sauers for the relatively inexpensive Glocks shooting 9mm ammo. In addition, decades back we were all tall and strong, but today, we have waived these height and weight requirements and have the ranks filled with a wide swath of gen-y'ers who may be very small, with tiny hands, and having little to no firearm experience. For these, having a cheap modular gun with minimal recoil becomes a factor in these budget decisions. Again, advantage goes to a striker fired 9mm. Having this FBI study gives a professional green light for making such a switch.

I am an old baby boomer who does prefer revolvers, 1911s, and sig sauers. , but the overwhelming mass majority of those within law enforcement today, would not be able to proficiently function with such hammer guns, therefore, the best future options for the whole would be vastly different than mine as an individual.

later

Saw this when it was posted here a few years ago. Remind us of the gist.

Cost is also mentioned as an upside to the 9's.

Not only for saving money on ammunition, but less wear and tear on the guns.



Travis

Excellent, post

You'll be hard pressed to back that up with any actual research or relevant experience.

Bob, as ever, you always post great information, and over time i have to say i find myself always eager to read your posts, as well as a handful of other 'fire members....


early in this thread, i mentioned that advancements, etc., in these fields do not come from the govenmental sector--but rather--from civilians who work at their crafts everyday. with this thought in mind:

in a sense, there already has been some "study of sorts" with regard to accuracy, and lightning fast shooting calling for acceptable hits. this occurred back in the 70's and 80's in the IPSC game. in short order, world class handgunners found out in a hurry that in order to play ball, they needed to make the switch to the smaller, faster, lighter recoiling round--the .38 Super--a mighty fine round.

more "speedy, accurate shooting" happens in one day--with all manner of different handgunners displaying all manner of skillsets--than likely occurs in LE on-duty shooting engagements over many days--if not weeks, or longer. i always thought that the 9 mm should have been able to play ball in that game--with no disparity--but alas, "power factor" was there to rear it's ugly head, and the lowly 9 mm was relegated to "minor" status....

this remark is not to defend IPSC--or to compare it realistically to street shootings--but only to point out that in that game, alot of ground was covered, especially in the early to mid 80's. it was--and is--a game. nevertheless it was a good place to acquire necessary skillsets, and test oneself against others.

the 9 mm is without question my favorite round. Bob, you mentioned "the perception of the officer" carrying the gun/ammo as a factor in matters. i believe this is very much spot on. if we can enlarge the pool of individuals you mention to include private citizens who are responsible CC folks, i can say this:

through considering a cross-section of just "everyday possibles" that might occur to a person in their everyday life, i feel more confident with a somewhat bigger caliber, than i do with a smaller caliber--as i prefer to err on the side of caution. too many times i've seen in testing bullets--and in other times shooting various game--that hp pills do not expand--but rather--"cave inward", and you "end up with what you started with".

that leaves "small caliber vs large caliber speed/accuracy". when i first began timing my deltas between "9 mm and .45 auto" capability (and adding an occasional 10 mm in for spice)--there was considerable disparity of times. that was 25+ years ago. consistent effort/work narrows this gap, and today, i can shoot the .45 auto at a speed that i am comfortable with for CC.

for most in LE, they have to carry what their department demands. for the private CC citizen, they can carry many options--but they should carry what they are proficient/comfortable with--and those parameters vary widely with differing individuals....

And not due to get better anytime soon.

Was it something I said about the 9mm? Or was it my remarks about the Feeble, Blind, and Incontinent?

It was when you called my grandpa a queer.

At least I didn't imply
that he was fbi

What is your favorite band camp story?
Mine is the story about a Border Patrol agent on a bridge who had a person that looked like he had a weapon so the agent shot him.
After the shooting no weapon could be found.
They decided that the weapon must have been dropped into the river.
The next day the Border Patrol dredged the river and a large quantity of pistols were salvaged from under the bridge. What a shock?

"I believe the accuracy/speed difference was determined by having a wide range of shooters shoot courses of fire with a Glock in a .40, and a Glock in a 9mm."

...I guess they just had to waste the ammo to prove what every halfway knowledgeable firearms instructor already knew...

...but again we have the tail wagging the dog. IPSC, IDPA and Qualification Courses have nothing to do with gun fighting. There is a whole bunch of officers who have been in gun fights with both a .40 and 9mm Glock. What I want to know is ON THE STREET in comparable shootings what is the hit percentage of the two. My belief is that there isn't going to be any. LE still has the same target shooting mentality they have had from the 1930s. In some segments it is getting better but overall not much.

Too may people are worrying about whether or not an officers "qualifies"...they should be worried about whether or not they live through a gun fight without also injuring a innocent party...

Hi_Vel...thanks for the nice words...

I really can't agree with any of that.



Travis

And how do you assess an officer's ability to do that without a standard to meet in a qualification?

Travis...don't expect you to.... But you tell me. A PD carries .40s and they switch to 9mms...qualification scores are going to go up...I have no doubt about that...no brainer. But I'll guaranty you the on the street % of hits will remain +- just about the same. AND you may find that using 9s instead of .40s you may have to shoot more...

And the reason I am sure of this is that in Dallas which had a lot of gun fights, the guys who were shooting .44s were not missing any more than the guys with .38s. The officers with 9mm were not making any better % of hits than those shooting .45s.

Much more important is that each officer have a gun that fits their hand. And in this world of "uniformity" it isn't happening.

Blue.... Next coat of paint has to go on...be back in a while...

Bob

But that's not an apples to apples comparison. To say Officer#1 hit with 50% of his shots from a .44magnum and Officer#2 hit with 50% of his shots from a 9mm......DOES NOT mean that those officers would have each had 50% hits with a different gun.

Officer#1 may have hit with 80% of his shots if he had switched to a 9mm and Officer#2 may have hit with 20% of his shots if he switched to a .44magnum.

And remember that whatever solution is proposed has to actually be viable for a LE agency in 2015. Any solution is going to have to be defensible in the litigious world LE agencies work in.

Roger that. A basic standard is necessary to assess someone's performance and ability. It also points to the training a department needs to do in order to better prepare its people. While an argument COULD be made that qualification doesn't equate to survival, an individual who has trouble qualifying on an easy course of fire is a danger to himself or his partner.

Higher qualification scores equate to higher hit ratios on suspects. I saw that enough to call it a fact, at least in my experience. I was involved in my department's transition to 9mms from revolvers; all cops that wanted to carry a 9mm had to attend (and pass) a 3 day (later 5 day) transition course. Over 1200 rounds were fired. Taught by our department's best marksmen, the course emphasized marksmanship and weapon manipulation with no tactical shooting. After graduation, all cops were monitored for NDs and OISs (shootings) over a two-year period. I personally interviewed every cop that got into a shooting with a 9mm during that time frame. That was somewhere around 100 people. Some thoughts:

1. Poor shooters shoot way better after intense training, in both OISs and qual. Statistically, the 9mm-trained cops achieved more hits on suspects than the revolver (.38) shooters. More training is always good. 9mm is easy to train with; average shooters do well with it.

2. Marksmanship is more important than tactical training. After a cop learns to shoot well, tactics can be uploaded. A good marksman will excell in most any tactical scenario. A tactical genius can lose a gunfight if he misses. The military calls this concept "crawl, walk, run". Learn to shoot, then learn to fight.

3. Multiple hits stop bad guys; one hit-stops are an urban legend. Big bullets don't kill (or stop) any better than smaller ones. At least, that's my experience, based on 24 years as a street cop, academy instructor, homicide detective and combat Soldier with more than one tour in Iraq. Yes, there's always the SWAT head shot with a .45 that saves the hostage. That's not the usual cop shooting.

4. Lots of rounds carried are always better than a few big rounds. I carried in excess of 60 rounds on patrol and had more in my ditty bag. Less recoil is also better, in both training and a firefight. Yes, you can train to overcome the recoil of a .40 or .45, but you'll shoot better with a low-recoiling 9mm and get more hits on the suspect. Superior shooters also shoot better with a 9 than a .45. Check the scores at Camp Perry; Champions excel with any gun, but they're excelling with higher scores now that 9mm has replaced .45 ball in service pistol events.

5. Big rounds are hard on the gun as well. Glock 22s break down, if they're shot a lot. 9mms last forever. Good for the budget.

My thoughts, based on working for a very large Southern CA police department with 10,000 cops to train.
Bob

That's a damn good point.

I used to work with our local SWAT team as the medic, so I've shot with and trained with a lot of cops; they generally shoot for chit...even the SWAT guys (they were better with their MP5's). 16 years on the street as a medic, I've treated a few dozen guys shot by cops, some by the entry team I was assigned to. Our city cops carried Sig 226's in 9mm. The County guys carried a variety of guns, most were .40's and 9's, with a spattering of .45's.

Actual hits on humans, I never noticed much of a difference. (admittedly this is VERY anecdotal evidence). Both departments were FIRM subscribers to the truism that there is absolutely no additional paperwork for additional rounds; and just shot the chit out of the bad guys. With one exception, all the other LE shot patients I've had were shot AT LEAST 7 times. That's hits, and the number of misses in my town were surprisingly low.

Kinda funny, I could wax their arses all day long at the range, but when it got real, suddenly those guys could all shoot...I never could reconcile that after seeing their training, but it just was.

Bill Allard of the NYPD was a member of the stakeout squad from inception to end and was involved in more gunfights than any other officer of the NYPD. Bill pistol of choice was a 1911 in 45 ACP loaded with Norma hollow points.

imo what's largely changed the game is bullet technology.


from rifles to handguns, with better bullets you can afford to give up what "used to be" necessary recoil.


freakin bastids I just wish LEO would make up their minds.


I've always been a proponent to have platforms that use the prevalent cartridge LEO use.

your odds of never running out of ammo would seem to go up.


but truthfully I been shoppin for a 19 for momma for awhile.

I think she'd definitely prefer lighter recoiling rounds.

I wonder if he's as butthurt by this study as everyone else.

Don't need to. A Desert Eagle (or any other 44 Auto) has to be made and handle like a brick compared to a Smith 29, to comfortably and accurately fire and survive the same round.
At least gun manufacturers think that way.

Odd, all I ever really hear is "this one fits my hand" or "I can reach the trigger on this one". "This trigger is heavy".

Give them a magazine to load; that one really takes the cake.

What I am saying is the quals need to be changed to reflect reality, not target shooting. Many of the course of fire are still based on the Police PPC, which is anything but "Practical".

First thing to change is the targets. CokeBottles don't shoot at people. BGs don't look like HUGE BLACK B27 targets with scoring rings.

As to the specifics of the new qualification course, I think every agency needs to figure out what their officers are most likely to get into and base the distances involved into the course of fire. If an agency has had 20 gunfights in its history and every one has been at close range, 10 yards and under, there is no possible reason to have over half the course of fire 15 yards and beyond. The last agency I worked for had to modify its course of fire per Police Standards and Training mandate that 15 of their 36 round course of fire was at 15+ yards. So many people failed the new course of fire they had to drop the passing score to the state minimum vs. their higher than minimum standard on their old course of fire.

As to being sued...you can be sued for anything.

"But that's not an apples to apples comparison. To say Officer#1 hit with 50% of his shots from a .44magnum and Officer#2 hit with 50% of his shots from a 9mm......DOES NOT mean that those officers would have each had 50% hits with a different gun.

Officer#1 may have hit with 80% of his shots if he had switched to a 9mm and Officer#2 may have hit with 20% of his shots if he switched to a .44magnum."

But you don't know that do you... You can say that the 9mm shooter had lower qualification scores when using the .44 or the .44 shooter had higher scores, but until both of them get into a real world shooting over a period of time no one knows. That is why I asked my original question about REAL WORLD shootings involving Glock 9mms and .40s. Those numbers are out there...no one wants to see them however.

Bob

No. That's why I said "may have".



I'd love to see numbers on apples-to-apples comparisons.

Didn't the FBI have the 10mm cartridge developed because the 9mm was inadequate? Miami shoot-out?

Also, if you're so inexperienced as a handgun shooter, that the biggest round you can effectively handle is a 9mm, you have no business using a hand gun for defense purposes. It doesn't take that much training to become proficient with any semi-auto pistol.

And if you need 17 rounds of ammo, because 14 or 15 isn't enough to get the job done, you're really not proficient enough to use a handgun for self defense either.

Awesome!!!!

No the 10mm was already developed when the tests were done. The FBI adopted the 10mm with 180 grain bullets at 1,000 fps, which led to S&W developing the 40 S&W or 10mm short. The 40 pushes the 180 @ 1,000 fps same as the down loaded 10mm but the 40 needs about 35,000 psi to get there. The higher pressure is why the 40 S&W is hard on the pistols it is chambered in.

Boys I have seen a pile of Glock 22's & 23's used by different agencies over the years, along with a number of personally owned ones that were shot a lot. I've never seen one break. I've been a Glock armorer for six years and it's like being the Maytag repairman.

Now I'll grant you that the cartridge generates more recoil impulse than most nines, but rounds like the 9BPLE can't be far behind it. Frankly I think this "40 is hard on guns" mantra was just more smoke & mirrors used by the FBI to rationalize a service cartridge change, they had already decided to make.

It ain't like they've never done this before, LOL.

Well, the main thing I've garnered from this thread is that the case definitely ain't closed.



Plus, from now on I'm carrying a belt fed weapon and screw the inconvenience of where I have to store that belt in my pants...

I hope all your future posts are as spot-on as this one.

Awesome.



Travis

I can bet you one thing for sure, if someone is shooting at you with a rife , the 9mm, 40, or 45 handgun is going to feel small in your hands.

COCK

Yawn, would someone wind flave up, please.

JFC, let's add another chapter to the Gibson Chronicles.

I expect one day I'll log on and find you giving advice on the Gladius, after years of working with a Roman Legion.



Travis

Can't relate.




Dave

….other than insuring that the price and availability of 9mm ammo will probably be better than any other centerfire cartridge for the foreseeable future, I'm having a hard time seeing what difference any of this makes to us in the real world.

How large or small will they feel if being shot at by a pistol? A shotgun?

Kevin as many jobs as you say you have held over the course of your posting here on the fire you would have had to be 3 people. Which is why I just call you the Walter Mitty of the fire...carry on...

So if my wife/daughter/elderly mother/grandfather etc. etc.is effective with a 9mm but but not so much with the larger calibers they should just dump the pistol all together,be handed a 12 ga. pump and told to suck it up?
Got it.

I like the band camp stories!
I am always amazed by people who are so concerned about ammo cost. If you are talking about saving your life, isn't that worth the cost no matter what it is?

Band Camp
I know a cop who shoots 5,000 rds per year of 45 acp.
5,000 rds of 9mm and 5,000 rds of
.357 magnum.
I was chatting him up at a bowling pin match and he mentioned that while making a routine traffic stop the driver suddenly decided to flee and ran over him with the car. I asked him how many rounds he fired. His answer was None!
Draw your own conclusions.

whelennut

Yes. Cost should be of no concern.

Keep paying your taxes.



Travis

Same thing I tell folks that ask for my opinion on a 'CHEAP' concealed carry, personal protection, or 'gun for my Wife' weapon.

I ask, you don't think much about you or your Wife's ass [life] do ya?

Taurus gives me the dry heaves.

Come on, now, Travis. You know perfectly well that Kevin has been completely consistent about his background from day one.

Good grief.

Dude with insight like that you should be making self defense videos on youtube

Threads like this are always good for entertainment..

For the record, I carry a 9mm, by choice, as a duty weapon. I have the choice between 9mm, 40, 45, or 357 Sig...and I still chose the 9mm.

Ah s h I t, they're all good these days, especially in a Glock.


I had to stir the pot, lol

Kevin must be related to Brian Williams.

Friends don't let Friends buy a Taurus

Taurus has some dam good concepts, I will give them that. But their QC sucks. That Tracker 44 mag I had was a nice gun but it had some issues.

Live is to short to pizz around with them anymore.

And some laughed when I said Kevin Gibson was my favorite handgun writer.

And me with nothing smart-azz to say. Pay no attention to that Gibson guy...he's an azz-hole.

I did not see anyone call you an azzhole.

What a mean thing to say.



Travis

I think the FBI should use the 10mm
and just tell the newbies to suck it up it is a condition of employment.
whelennut

Yes that was mean and hurtful thing to say, why the campfire would not be the campfire without all of the unique train wreck personalities! Without our liars and psychpath's this place would be dull. For instance Lee24 and TAK and OLDwoman those guys were a real hoot. Then I guess we do have a few people who actually shoot or have done these things, you cannot tell the players without a program. My favorites are the SME's that actually get their SM Eggspertise off the internet.

I would never call a man a liar unless he is a Registered Democrat.

Bwahahaha!

It seems to me that instead of switching back and forth between different calibers the FBI needs to focus on training.
70 % misses sounds like they need to spend more time at the range.
I am sure I am way off base though. They just need some wire guided bullets.

FBI=accountants and lawyers with guns. Not exactly firearms gurus.

Bill Allard was involved in more gun fights than anyone else from the NYPD and it is said that he never missed a shot in a gunfight.

I know the ability to read is typically frowned upon here, but those statistics are based upon LE shootings across the country. They are not specific to the FBI.




Travis

Sounds like cloning Bill Allards is the answer.




Travis

Might work

Correct as usual.

Might?

Will.


Grin...




Travis

The FBI shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons.

They should carry or not carry under precisely the same laws under which residents of the various states within which they operate may or may not carry. They are not police officers, but merely investigators of Federal crimes. If they are operating within Chicago, for example, they should have to go about their business there unarmed like everyone else there does who's not a police officer recognized by that city. In Alaska or Vermont, they can carry any way they like at any time, etc., etc.,. The Constitution doesn't authorize a national police force, and what the Constitution doesn't authorize, it prohibits in accordance with the 10th Amendment.

You're right. They aren't "police" but they are federal Law enforcement I know many (probably all) have statutes allowing fFLE to carry firearms within each said state, but LEOSA covers that anyway

"Thou shalt remember thou art commanded by the Lord to take up the 45 when the Slakites come to smite you and carry away thy children, and two score and five is the number that shall lay thine enemies below the earth."

The Rock says this, It doesn't matter what they carry.

"Most of what is ‘common knowledge’ with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore. … Handgun stopping power is simply a myth,” the FBI said in its report. “There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.”

I think one of the most obvious things being overlooked here is that the FBI is apparently only comparing the ammunition specified by their testing protocols; that is, the bullet should only penetrate 12"-18" regardless of caliber. Well, since they artificially designed each load to perform the same, no [bleep] that there's no difference between the three. If you take the FBI's logic to it's reasonable conclusion, if they designed a .380 load and a .44 mag load to perform the same, then there's no difference between the two and we can all carry .380's in bear country.

Where did you read that the FBI "artificially designed each load to perform the same?"




Travis

I love a nine, very accurate if rounds are tossed in a fire barrel. Most will have scraps hit the barrel when they go off.
Need 17 rounds to kill a BG on drugs but not until he does you in. you can make an ACP accurate but most nines are junk. Best I ever shot were the P38 and Luger for accuracy. Old Germain production.
Police can not handle recoil, had a White house security guy here with a Glock nine. He set a target at 10 yards and missed every shot. My friend Pete and I took the center out with his gun. He watched me take little targets out at 100 yards with my big bore but it scared him so bad he would not shoot it.
I would rather have a .22 then a .380 or nine.
Things start with the .45 and just get better.

Because they spec'd that bullets should penetrate at least 12" and no more than 18", and that penetration over 18" was a failure, or at least scored lower. The 70% miss rate as far as shooter accuracy goes is a little bit misleading, since, in my experience, LEO's with high capacity magazines will tend to fire more rounds as suppression fire at fleeting targets, such as targets that are difficult to see, like targets crouching behind a car or other cover. So, if 70% are misses, why limit the penetration requirement to 18" if so many bullets are going to be misses, anyway? Who knows if they extended the penetration limit to 20", 24", or unlimited, if the bullets with greater sectional density or weight would begin to show an advantage?

Wow. Read this GEM slowly, it prolongs the laughter

No. The report does not say that. The report says 12-18" is the amount of penetration needed to stop a threat. The range is based on a number of factors such as the size of an individual being shot, angle of bullet path, etc.

Nowhere in the report does it indicate penetration exceeding 18" is a "failure" or "scored lower."



I can't find anything misleading about hit percentages based on facts. The conclusion the FBI reached is that more bullets are better than less bullets if an officer finds himself in a gunfight.



Travis

I have got to meet this guy.




Travis

Right! I hope his next post includes just a tad bit more stupid....I hate seeing good talent go to waste

He is my favorite handgun writer.

Do you mind telling us about this experience you mentioned?

Don't you fellers know it's not nice to pick on retards? Shame on you all, you mean, mean people.

Calling him a retard is offensive to retarda

I'd love to see the video.

Well, we know he has a camera/can post pics, which puts him ahead of at least one other "expert".

He probably couldn't post (or take) a video because the" Whitehouse Security " operator needed to protect his identity.

Next time I'm there, I'm going to PM BFR. He has told me before I could come shoot with him.

I'll have a pic with him and you will all still be losers.




Travis

Epic.

The source mentioning that ammunition that penetrates greater than 18" is scored lower in the FBI's testing protocol is in this article:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI%20Ammunition%20Protocol/FBI%20Ammunition%20Protocol.html

but after re-reading "Ammunition Test Results," Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA, dated January 10, 1989, I'm not so sure the article is accurate. However, a paragraph in the FBI's 1989 report reads, "The comparison of bullet performance by volumetric measure is presented in three tables. The first displays the volumetric rankings of the bullets tested for each specific test. Two volumetric rankings are given. The "Max Volume" is the volumetric measure based on the total average penetration depth. The "18 Inch Adjusted Volume" is computed on penetration depth up to 18 inches, ignoring any penetration beyond that figure. Since the performance standards established by the FBI mandate penetration ranging from a minimum of 12 inches to a maximum of 18 inches, this figure compares the rounds relative to those standards and does not give weight to penetration beyond the established maximum."

The FBI, based on forensic analysis, determined that handgun ammunition need not penetrate further than 18" so they didn't measure any further. But what I was just pointing out as being ironic is that the FBI's recent report apparently looked at gelatin tests up to 18" and concluded that there "is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto." (I guess up to 18"). We really don't know if bullets of greater weight or higher sectional density would begin to demonstrate an advantage if measurements were carried further. I just thought is was ironic that the FBI's more recent report seems to say, "We looked at ammunition that was designed to performed the same, and determined that, therefore, all loadings of these calibers perform the same." (I say 'designed to perform the same' because of the similar performance results of ATK's and Winchester's current LE ammunition as listed on their websites.)

Maybe 18" is the total practical maximum required penetration against the human anatomy, but the FBI's insistence that the 9mm is the "end of the discussion" comes off a little conceited, or, at the very least, perhaps settling for the proverbial bullet that works well when everything goes right. I think there are a whole lotta dead guys that would dispute the line "handgun stopping power is a myth."

I used the FBI's 1989 report for a presentation when I became a firearms instructor later that year. I couldn't find a link to it on the Internet.

Regards,
T.J.

They essentially threw all that stuff from 1989 away.

The FBI is conceited but that doesn't mean I can find any fault with their more recent findings.

If you want to believe in one-stop shots and stopping power from 45's and .40, etc., feel free to.



Travis

No, I'm not suggesting that any handgun round reliably gives one-shot stops; just saying that the Bureau's reasoning seems to be somewhat circular, in that they generally look for penetration from 12"-18", and ignore (their word)anything exceeding that, then say, "Well, they all worked the same." Of course they did, because that's all they looked at.

Off topic a little bit, but it was interesting to re-read the 1989 report again. It was an evaluation of the ammunition then available, and found that, out of 40 rounds of each fired: only one 10mm round fired failed to penetrate more than 12"; two .45 (presumably ACP) rounds failed to penetrate more than 12"; 13 rounds of 9mm failed, noting that out of a 15-shot weapon, five would not have "performed as desired," and 13 of .38 (Special?) rounds also failed to penetrate 12". The Bureau only tested one load, so it was a very limited evaluation, but still, what a difference in todays ammo! No argument from me that things have improved, but I'm just not yet willing to go all-in for the 9mm.

Who knows what ammunition would have been developed if the Bureau said that 24" was the gold standard, to give an even more margin of error for when things don't go well, or to possibly accommodate longer-range shooting. Since I work in primarily rural areas, I would be interested to know if the 12"-18" penetration reportedly met by a lot of today's "premium" ammunition would still hold true for hits from 25-40 yards, not the 10 feet spec'd in the testing protocol.

Regards, and enjoy the weekend.

this is all silly, want a few dB lower use the .45, want more than 8 rounds use the 9mm want to hang out with Lynn Russel in a motel 6 use a .380, like the man said if your expecting trouble bring your rifle.

Ok.



Dave

Same.

Modern 9mm ammo is very effective, as is 45ACP. But the reduced recoil and increased capacity tilt the equation towards the 9mm. It is also less expensive (less lead, brass, powder required), so training can cost less and you'll get more shots per dollar!

True, but the 9mm is effective. Yes, with proper hits, the 40 and 45's are effective, but how much more effective does a cartridge have to be to do the same job. Hitting the target is the most important attribute, all else follows.

If accuracy is important we should carry folding stock 10/22's according to the Blue Press.
Head shots with a 22 are better than misses with a double stack pray and spray 9mm.

A 22LR does not meet the requirements cited in the report.




Dave

I must say, I never really counted my hi cap 9 as a spray and pray.

I considered it an opportunity to kill more bad guys.

I hate missing.

Maybe that's why I use a 22 centerfire for deer.....

Having plenty of rounds available in a gunfight is always a good thing.
Bob

Success comes from having the proper aim as well as the right ammunition.

finally got around to viewing this video that Dave in WV posted earlier:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA



informative, yet somewhat perplexing too...

if one factors out his comments on rifles--and only focus on handguns--a few points he notes might be:


1. six out of seven victims (about 86%), shot with handguns survive. quick, critical care is a factor though. in hollywood style, likely many of these victims are only hit once--or twice--like the guy in the video at the 14:40 mark. "multiple hits" aren't really addressed.

2. he does indicate a lack of penetration--likely due to fragmentation--as an issue. while he is referring to the results on expanding bullets with actual victims--in testing pills in wood, wetlap, water, etc., at times the failure in hollow points is the nose turning inward--resulting in essentially a fmj. occasionally, there is core and jacket separation--but the core often plows on ahead, somewhat like a swaged lead pill would do. this was especially the case with many pills of yesteryear.

3. he notes--for lack of a better phrase--the "vertical axis" which is quite narrow, and a change in target design to reflect that. true, as in a decent target, this area is essentially about 6 inches wide and 20 inches high.

4. one is left with the impression that he believes or indicates that there isn't much delta in the effective performance of the "Big 3" (9 MM, .40 S&W, and .45 Auto), and indicates that it depends on the chance that the pill will penetrate enough and perhaps sever a vessel, etc.

5. yet curiously (while he was talking about rounds at 12:35 in the video), he indicates that a heavier, bigger pill will cause more damage and injury, resulting in more bleeding.



perhaps a little confusing, but worth viewing...

I never felt undergunned with 40 rounds of 45 on my belt


Nor with 46 rounds of 357 sig

As far as one shot stops go unless a CNS hit is made you can't count on one shot doing the trick. It would seem that the more damage done the faster our bad guy will die. Way back when the aluminum jacketed "Silvertips" came out my partner was all over them because they really did expand out of his 45, Hooray! I always ran hardball and still do. Anyway one day he was trading hate with a human trafficker outside of Laredo who was hiding behind an empty steel 55 gallon drum. Not sure either knew at first the drum was empty. Wess centers the drum 3 times with the hollow points wherein the bad guy throws his gun over the drum and surrenders. Wondering why the suspect was unhurt he walks over to look at the drum and finds that two of his bullets didn't make it through the drum just denting the second side and one is hanging out of a hole in the drum which is probably the one that caused our bad guy to surrender. That was many years ago but he immediately switched back to hardball. Department regs have forced him to carry a 40 in recent years but he likes bullets that will go through both sides of an empty 55 gallon drum to this day. He is pissed that soon he will have to get a 9MM for his service pistol but will probably run the flat nosed 147 grain subsonic round because it will for certain penetrate the steel drum barrier. His backup pistol for years has been some sort of 9MM, currently a S&W Shield and he went to the trouble of finding out what will give him what he considers minimum penetration. He practices a lot with his hideout guns, enough so he actually puts real wear and tear on them. He recently retired a Ruger LCP because it went sloppy on him. Penetration means different things to different people!

Which (LE) department authorizes non-expanding flat nose duty ammo for their service pistol? Sounds way outside the norm.

Sounds like a perfect application for the 357 Sig.

FBI is in cahoots with the manufacturers, just like the gun writers. Every so often another caliber or system becomes the latest greatest darling and let the churning begin. It's good for the economy, doncha know?

That about sums it up.

No shiet... and their articles, ads and gubbermit studies should end with "Love you long time GI!!" At least you'd know that you're likely to get screwed- and it's going to cost you money.

I've met him several times in various forms at gun counters and ranges. He will regale you with great tales of bravery, wisdom and extraordinary marksmanship............using the cup and saucer technique. The audience is in for a treat every time.

Shanghai Municipal Police, circa 1938....

http://www.specops.pl/vortal/download/files/shooting_to_live.pdf

we will give an example of a practice frequently carried out with good results. It is designed not only as a test of skill with the pistol under difficult conditions, but also as a test of bodily fitness and agility, qualities which to the policeman at any rate are every bit as necessary in the circumstances which are so often encountered in shooting affrays.

In this practice, which we have called "The Pursuit" the shooter is started off at the run, outside the range, on an obstacle course consisting of jumping a ditch, running across a plank over water,
crawling through a suspended barrel, climbing a
rope, a ladder, and over a wall, finishing up with a
100 yards dash ending at 4 yards from the targets.

Without warning or waiting, two surprise targets are
pulled, one after tho other, and at each he fires a
“burst" of three shots. The targets are exposed for
no longer than it takes to fire three shots at the
highest possible speed.

..and the "fun house"...

All they see from the outside is a wall with a door through which, one by one, they will have to enter the lodging house. No one knows what he will encounter inside, and the only instructions given are that innocent civilians are not to be "killed", such actions likely to impeded promotion.

The first man to shoot pushes in the door, closely followed by the range officer, and proceeds with caution or with reckless abandon, according to his nature, along a dark, narrow, twisting passage, kicks open a door at one point, descends a few steps, treads on floor boards which give way under him,climbs some more steps and os and finds himself in a dimly lit room occupied by apparently harmless people (dummies) who vary from mere lodgers to dope fiends or stool-pigeons.

He has to take in the situation in a flash, for his appearance is the signal for the fun to commence. A shot is fired at him a (blank cartridge in the control room), and the criminals commence their “get-away" ("criminals" are life-sized targets that bob up from nowhere and disappear quickly, heads and shoulders that peer
at him round a corner, men running swiftly across the room, possibly at an oblique angle etc, all masked at point in their careers by the “innocent bystanders", who must not be shot)...

Egad, on the link skip down to page 84- Chapter VII on "STOPPING POWER"...

http://www.specops.pl/vortal/download/files/shooting_to_live.pdf


Pretty much the same arguments rehashed on this thread along with real-world failures to stop involving .455 Webleys and .45 ACPs vs. a chance one-shot stop with a .380.

To sum up, all that we have done in this chapter is to provide instances of now various types of weapons and their loads have not run true to form. Preconceived ideas, based upon experience or perhaps hearsay, seem to have been upset.....

But he closes the chapter with this....

Throughout this book we have done our best to emphasise the vital need for extreme rapidity of fire... The more closely our own pistols resemble machine-guns the better we like it.

Birdwatcher

Submachinegun strings of fire and 12 gauge buckshot have never been known for failures to stop, so this makes sense.

Good argument for a Model 17 Glock with it's standard 18 round capacity.

The Elmer Keith's and Jeff Cooper's of the world like to keep a lot of stupid schit alive.




Dave

That incident happened in the 90's, not sure exactly what year and departments were not as anal about the ammo you carried then, especially small departments. That said even today what you have in your extra magazines can be your call.

Perhaps, I was quoting William Ewart Fairbairn, 25 years in the Shanghai Municipal Police. If you're at all involved in combat arts ya oughtta know about W.E.Fairbairn.

IIRC Fairbairn was alway a bada$$ and joined the Royal Marines underage before WWI. When he was 19 he left the Royal Marines while posted in the Far East and joined the Shanghai Municipal Police. Likely Shanghai had many attractions for a 19 year old youth.

Shortly thereafter, despite his fighting abilitites, he was beaten and left for dead on the docks while on duty. At that point he started studying martial arts, well ahead of his time so far as Europeans were concerned. In particular he studied for decades under a Japanese ju-jitsu master.

The SMP hired people from all over the Empire and also contained Sikhs and of course Chinese. As he rose in the ranks Fairbairn incorporated their fighting styles also.

For handguns, despite his Brit roots, he favored the 1911 but pinned the grip safeties. His smaller-statured Chinese policemen got the Colt 1903 (??) .380's.

British handgun training in that era weren't all that bad, to pass the Army revolver course you had to put one round into a 10" by 15" rectangle at ten feet (??) within one second, starting from a stiff-armed, one-handed low ready. Fairbairn was way ahead of his time in incorporating practical courses of fire. Nobody but him in that era would put out a book on handgun combat with a title like "Shooting to Live".

Fairbairn himself survived more than sixty armed confrontations with bad guys in the course of his career. if you read his book he actually brags on how his Cops were winning fights at a ratio of four to one, which indicated how rough the duty was.

He also published a book on knife fighting and where to cut your opponent, it used to be on-line too but was withdrawn IIRC at the request of his family.

He later partnered up in the SMP with a former Indian professional big game hunter named Eric Anthony Sykes, Sykes was a rifle guy who initiated police sniping and something akin to a modern SWAT team.

WWII breaks out and Shanghai falls to the Japanese, Fairbairn and Sykes return to England where they devised modern Commando training and techniques. The Sykes-Fairbairn dagger is still the emblem of Brit Spec-Ops forces.

Sykes and Fairbairn had a falling out after Sykes busted Fairbairn's plans to go along on a Commando raid with the mean he had trained (Fairbairn was in his 50's at the time). Sykes died of a heart attack during the war, Fairbairn was sent to the US to coordinated Spec-Ops training, Rex Applegate became one of his disciples.

After that Fairbairn was sent to train agents Camp X in Canada, a black-ops (is that the term?) outfit. Ian Fleming of future James Bond fame was sent to train at that camp.

After the war Fairbairn, still on Her Majesty's secret service, was sent to India and Ceylon on various classified missions. IIRC he retired shortly before his death in the 60's.

Pretty much everything ya need to know about Fairbairn is that when, as one of the demonstrably deadliest men in the world, he was asked what he would do if attacked by a knife-wielding assailant, his advice was "run".

The famous gun gurus on this side of the Atlantic, including IIRC Rex Applegate, were strangely silent on crediting Fairbairn which is prob'ly why he ain't more widely known over here even today.

Not so in England, and the Israelis in particular IIRC still advocate Fairbairn's safeties-off, empty chamber carry/two handed rack and draw technique for autos.

When it came to handgun combat Fairbairn described a typical gunfight as taking place in the dark, within ten feet, and decided in the first two seconds.

Which is why at the handgun range I'm about the only guy standing ten feet from the target, putting two rounds center mass in repeated draw-and-shoot drills. To do that ya gotta have a handgun grip that indexes in the hand the exact same way every time, hence the longer grip on my Airweight and the longer magazine on the LC9.

Works fer me, YMMV.

Birdwatcher

where?


we carried what was issued and only what was issued

We bought our own duty ammo.

Of course during these vast studies, they fail to interview the people that were shot with a 9mm and said "That didn't hurt a bit".

Thanks for typing all that out but a few things:

1.) I've read a lot of Fairbain's stuff.

2.) Carrying cold is stupid.

3.) Shooting two shots center mass with your strong side @ 10' could be accomplished by a retarded, blind, monkey.

4.) I'm pretty sure Rex gave credit where credit was due.

5.) Knife fighting is about the stupidest thing on earth.

The best you can hope for is to disable your opponent before he does the same to you, then hope you can get emergency medical attention quick enough not to die from your wounds. Few really good outcomes.

By "knife fighting," however, he most likely was talking about sneaking up on a sentry and taking him out before he knows you're there.

Long as I don't have to go up against one I'm OK with that.

...but I find that for the rest of us, there's a bunch of surprising ways one can fumble it w/out rehearsing from time to time. Weak side too.

The thing I especially worry about is shooting myself in the foot in practice, that and ricochets, been OK so far tho.

I also like to try for aimed head shots at 50 yards if that helps any.



You prob'ly got that from Fairbairn.

Birdwatcher

Pretty much, hence IIRC the Sykes-Fairbairn dagger. I used to have a download of his knife book several computers ago. Besides lethal points he also included debilitating places on the arms and other places to aim for if it did come down to an actual fight.

I have never even dabbled in knife fighting, no way I ever cared to spend the time to become proficient, especially when handguns are so readily available.

Birdwatcher

Yeah, knife fighting is the equivalent holding a grenade to kill a guy on top of you. Better to take someone with you than die alone, but NOT a smart approach to living another day.

I hope to limit my 'knife fighting' to incidents involving a tough steak and a dull knife.

Deleted.

Posting while drunk.

Egad man! Read the fine print, posting while drunk is a pretty much a requirement around here

Well, I got myself drunk and found this...(Lucky Gunner)
I could make more noise with my .45 but that 9mm HST looks like it would do the job.

And some of the best material is posted.

Ya, on review turns out I was wrong on that, I'm pretty sure he did too.

I guess I owe you guys 53,645 apologies.





Clark

including that one no less...

props.

Carrizo Springs or Eagle Pass, I'll have to ask him to be sure. Or is the question where presently can you get away with having rounds other than the issue Golden Sabre in your spare magazines? It appears the state of Texas is not going to require a change from the 40 to 9MM anyway.

They'd probably let you carry a slingshot and a pocket full of stones in those two schit holes.




Dave

Sadly for some, not everyone will embrace the 38 Special Rimless Short. I am apparently not intuitive enough to grasp why this disturbs people.

This thread has gone silly. How many are currently working for an accredited law enforcement agency that uses wound ballistic work shops with FBI protocol testing to compare ammunition for duty selection and purchase? Of those, how many even participated in a workshop??

If you are not current, or never have, what does it matter, or how does it apply to you, unless you are being shot at by someone who is a current le officer.

About as silly as people bitching and moaning over the current weapons the military selects, when those same people are no longer in the military, or never were.

If you are not, you are free to go out in your back 40, to test whatever you like, however you like, to make a personal choice. You can even base your choice on pictures and words on the ammo box. The development of FBI protocols, the LE work shops, and competition by ammo manufacturers to meet those standards, have indeed been a blessing to the LE community. But those are LE needs and LE standards. Yours likely are not and may vary.

GaryVA,
Do you know where you are? You are on a forum in the internet, everything will be ok.

Yep, and I am not even drinking. Guess I'm just as bad, bitching and moaning about those who are bitching and moaning.

No offense taken Gary. I see it like this- with the paying of taxes comes the automatic right to question what that money is being spent on.

this is an excellent remark.

in addition, in my opinion it must be kept in mind that nearly all of the progress/advances within so many of these fields come from the efforts of the civilian sector...

despite the above, i almost always do enjoy Gary's posts and insight--they are typically very well thought out and set forth in writing...

Wow, I'm free at last in the back 40, been waitin' on this day of glory. How about an LE workshop in hittin' something that actually needs hittin' in less than 17 rounds?

16 warning shots should be enough.

Never been in the military, probably too old to ever be, now. I do have concerns about the equipment those folks are issued. They deserve the best tools we can give them. Money, my taxes, is also an issue to be considered.

Law enforcement firearms training and qualifications are weak without a doubt.To keep things in check, bad guys shoot back and move when getting shot at. It's fairly easy to stand in front of a stationary target and slow fire tight groups

I can't get a good two hand grip on a 19, too damn little, the old 21 was okay.

"FBI Says 9mm Is The Best Pistol Round"

I think what they really said was the 9mm was as effective in stopping as the other rounds, and given the increase in capacity of a 9mm handgun to a similarly-sized 40 S&W or 45 ACP handgun, the advantage goes to the 9mm.

I was in the ARMY back in 1974. The Military Police were issued 1911 45 acp handguns.
The women were issued 38 special revolvers.
It seems like not much has changed.
Women want to do a man's job even when they are clearly not capable.

So, the military should move away from "most effective" as our criteria for weapons and ammunition, and instead fall back to Vietnam-era perceptions of "manliness?"

NOT

Sounds like you need a 17. The Gen Fours have interchangeable back straps for any size hand.

The 9mm like and other handgun round depends on the bullet you use, just how effective it is as a defense round.

"Bullets matter more than headstamps."

Heard that somewhere...

I agree with GaryVA, law enforcement, military tested and made decisions based on a plethora of reasons. We can dissect these decisions into minutia as old men sometimes do, but it is what it is. I like the 9mm with good bullets, I like the 45 as well but the 9 is fine for lots of reasons. Again just another old mans opinion. I will be taking another training class in January and will use a G43 that is a carry gun that works well for me.

No one really knows if their choice of carry gun will really will work for them until they actually use it to shoot someone regardless of what they carry

I don't shoot people but reading about people's selection criteria is sure entertainment.

Yes, 17 would be better, a nephew bought, and brought out to the farm a new 19, I had forgotten how small they were.

I dont think I have ever heard the 19 described as "small."

Depends on the size of your dickbeaters.




Dave

Yes, can't find a spot to plant my fuggin thumbs on the left side of the short skinny bastage.

Already happened in 1985.

The military used to issue hardball for the 1/2 90.
What do the FBI agents use for ammunition?

Premium hollow points.

It seems to me that a 45 with premium hollow points would be even better.

the FBI tests say they are not.

Maybe... Is the fractional difference between "better" and "good enough" worth increased gun size, grip size, recoil and decreased magazine capacity? On the surface it seems cut and dried but when you start peeling back the layers the subject gets more complex.

The best loads in a 45 +P leaves a larger wound channel in game than does a 9 and slightly out penetrates the 9. The 9 recoils less and has more magazine capacity. Take your pick on which is better, but it ain't ballisticaly better.

You weren't at the fuel stop putting on 500 gallons when you typed that were ya?

I can't tell the FBI what is best for them but the 1911 gives me that warm fuzzy feeling that is either there or it isn't.
Ingram M 10 and 1928 Thompson are similar.
I like fat bullets.
whelennut

An all steel 1911 handles .45 ACP, recoil-wise, about as well as a Glock 17 does 9mm, so all you're lacking is round capacity and absence of a manual safety. You likely pick up a little in stopping power, though. If that exchange is worth it to you, then the 1911 is for you. Neat old design, so there's that too. Something satisfying about blued steel and wood (I've no plans to sell stock 1961 Colt Government Model). I'll still take a Glock 17, though, for daily concealed carry.

No handgun feels better in my hand than a 1911, the swing or raise to point and fire is effortless.

Dam auto spell got me along with no proof reading.

LMAO, Wifey sent me a text one evening informing me "not to lick her out of the house"

LMAO ROTF

A guy on Glock Talk has a signature of: "I hate auto spell correct, it is my worst enema..."

I texted her back and said, "anywhere is fine with me Dear"