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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Sorry my Cuban friend, but that is probably the least convincing "test" you could possibly present.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sorry my Cuban friend, but that is probably the least convincing "test" you could possibly present.
Travis
How do you figure? The link I posted doesn't do justice to the tests, first hand reports. The cadavers were shot to also find out the ability to break bone and larger diameter projectiles are more likely to break bone rather than simply shooting a hole through the bone.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Back in the very early 20th Century the Germans figured out that a flat point FMJ had far better shocking and wound producing capabilities than any round nose bullet. Even a small flat meplat was better than any round nose and the bullet they used wouldn't even be considered a flat point today, more of a truncated cone.
No one in their right mind goes hunting today with a round nose cast bullet but lots of folks put down game of all sizes with flat nose Keith or LBT styles.
I've always wondered why the military never took that route?
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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How do you figure? The link I posted doesn't do justice to the tests, first hand reports. The cadavers were shot to also find out the ability to break bone and larger diameter projectiles are more likely to break bone rather than simply shooting a hole through the bone.
Well for one thing, it's from 1904. For another, it plainly stated the results of shooting living cows were all over the map, but they all just sorta decided the 45 seemed to work the best. Lastly, it seems centered around one aspect of cartridge selection. As opposed to the totality of all circumstances surrounding what law enforcement personnel should weigh when selecting a cartridge. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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How do you figure? The link I posted doesn't do justice to the tests, first hand reports. The cadavers were shot to also find out the ability to break bone and larger diameter projectiles are more likely to break bone rather than simply shooting a hole through the bone.
Well for one thing, it's from 1904. For another, it plainly stated the results of shooting living cows were all over the map, but they all just sorta decided the 45 seemed to work the best. Lastly, it seems centered around one aspect of cartridge selection. As opposed to the totality of all circumstances surrounding what law enforcement personnel should weigh when selecting a cartridge. Travis As I posted the article doesn't do the testing justice. Nothing has shrunk or increased since then. Loads are faster and better today for all caliber so not just some.
Last edited by jwp475; 08/27/15.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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I'll concede that a .45 caliber bullet is larger than a .35 caliber bullet.
As does the FBI report.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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It makes sense if you are doing it "for the women"... I just read and talk face to face w guys that were THERE on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan and they tell me the 9 SUCKS. Not to mention JWP's link above.. 9mm is for girls... And how did it "suck"? How did the 9mm stack up against .40s and .45s in side by side comparison? What was the sample size for each caliber? What loads were they using? Because if they weren't the loads the FBI considered or what I'll carry, I couldn't give a flip less about somebody's "one time at band camp" stories. Afghanistan and Iraq were "one time at band camp"? seriously? See JWP's link on US Army tests on the 9 v 45. For the most part, yes. Because the stories almost always come from people with no actual field experience that are second hand at best and have no basis in anything resembling scientific, unbiased testing. Until I hear the basis for an opinion from "the sandbox" I treat them all as band camp stories. You're welcome to prove me wrong by providing answers to the very simple questions that would dispel all doubts about whether or not someone should trust the source. And I did see the link from the test ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN YEARS AGO. I also saw a report from 1951 about there not being a vaccine for polio. And a study from 1928 that said penicillin didn't exist. Maybe, just maybe things have changed since NINETEENFREAKINGOHFOUR.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'll concede that a .45 caliber bullet is larger than a .35 caliber bullet.
As does the FBI report.
Travis +1.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
FMJ the 45 will win over the nine, HP Ammo today not so much.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What was true then is true now as JWP alluded to in the previous post. Both cartridges have evolved since then with better and even faster loadings for both.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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FMJ the 45 will win over the nine, HP Ammo today not so much. Have you personally compared the 2, or just repeating what you heard? When I compare the 2 with modern ammo the 45 comes out on top in penetration and diameter of wound produced. Granted not by much in the penetration department but it is still the larger of the 2, even with JHPs
Last edited by jwp475; 08/27/15.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Granted not by much but it is still the larger of the 2, even with JHPs That is also what the FBI test concluded. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Granted not by much in the penetration department but it is still the larger of the 2, even with JHPs That is also what the FBI test concluded. Travis The 9mm has the advantage in magazine capacity which is real advantage, but those that think it equals or exceeds the 45 in teriminsl performance are in fantasy land. I am thinking of a XD in 9mm it will take a 19 round mag, that is a definate advantage in fire power no doubt. The 45 can be had a 14 round capacity which ain't bad.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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It is not a matter of equaling or exceeding the performance of a 45. It is a matter of using data collected from the field to determine what is required of a cartridge for the purposes of law enforcement personnel.
The report explains that 12-18" of penetration was necessary. It explains that certain 9mm loadings meet or exceed this requirement. It also explains some .40 cal ammunition does not.
It also explains that 70-80% of shots fired by law enforcement personnel in deadly force situations are misses. Which means more bullets are always better than less bullets.
It also explains that accuracy is paramount above all else. And that the lighter recoiling cartridge improves the speed and accuracy of ALL pistol shooters.
If anybody has a valid argument against any of these key points, feel free to urinate up that rope.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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It makes sense if you are doing it "for the women"... I just read and talk face to face w guys that were THERE on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan and they tell me the 9 SUCKS. Not to mention JWP's link above.. 9mm is for girls... And how did it "suck"? How did the 9mm stack up against .40s and .45s in side by side comparison? What was the sample size for each caliber? What loads were they using? Because if they weren't the loads the FBI considered or what I'll carry, I couldn't give a flip less about somebody's "one time at band camp" stories. Afghanistan and Iraq were "one time at band camp"? seriously? See JWP's link on US Army tests on the 9 v 45. For the most part, yes. Because the stories almost always come from people with no actual field experience that are second hand at best and have no basis in anything resembling scientific, unbiased testing. Until I hear the basis for an opinion from "the sandbox" I treat them all as band camp stories. You're welcome to prove me wrong by providing answers to the very simple questions that would dispel all doubts about whether or not someone should trust the source. And I did see the link from the test ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN YEARS AGO. I also saw a report from 1951 about there not being a vaccine for polio. And a study from 1928 that said penicillin didn't exist. Maybe, just maybe things have changed since NINETEENFREAKINGOHFOUR. The Thompson-LaGarde tests were done with non-expanding bullets and it's generally recognized as nearly difinitive for non-expanding bullets; even 100 years later. The ONLY change has been development of the 9mm which has increased terminal and barrier penetration only; pretty much nothing else has changed with non-expanding handgun bullets in the past 100 years. Sure there have been some exotic developments, but no major military uses such ammunition so it's kind of a moot point. JWP was talking about non-expanding ammunition and for that, the Thompson-LaGarde tests were pretty darned good; so much so that no one has felt the need to re-do them. And ballistic gelatin tests have really just confirmed Thompson-LaGarde. Now when we get to expanding, the whole world changes.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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It is not a matter of equaling or exceeding the performance of a 45. It is a matter of using data collected from the field to determine what is required of a cartridge for the purposes of law enforcement personnel.
The report explains that 12-18" of penetration was necessary. It explains that certain 9mm loadings meet or exceed this requirement. It also explains some .40 cal ammunition does not.
It also explains that 70-80% of shots fired by law enforcement personnel in deadly force situations are misses. Which means more bullets are always better than less bullets.
It also explains that accuracy is paramount above all else. And that the lighter recoiling cartridge improves the speed and accuracy of ALL pistol shooters.
If anybody has a valid argument against any of these key points, feel free to urinate up that rope.
Travis That's the fist I've ever heard of the .40 under performing in penetration, that was always it's strong suit...well, at least with the 180's. Other than that, I'd say you're spot on.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6 |
It is not a matter of equaling or exceeding the performance of a 45. It is a matter of using data collected from the field to determine what is required of a cartridge for the purposes of law enforcement personnel.
The report explains that 12-18" of penetration was necessary. It explains that certain 9mm loadings meet or exceed this requirement. It also explains some .40 cal ammunition does not.
It also explains that 70-80% of shots fired by law enforcement personnel in deadly force situations are misses. Which means more bullets are always better than less bullets.
It also explains that accuracy is paramount above all else. And that the lighter recoiling cartridge improves the speed and accuracy of ALL pistol shooters.
If anybody has a valid argument against any of these key points, feel free to urinate up that rope.
Travis All of that is very true.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Other than that, I'd say you're spot on.
I'm just re-writing the findings of the report. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,982 Likes: 6 |
It is not a matter of equaling or exceeding the performance of a 45. It is a matter of using data collected from the field to determine what is required of a cartridge for the purposes of law enforcement personnel.
The report explains that 12-18" of penetration was necessary. It explains that certain 9mm loadings meet or exceed this requirement. It also explains some .40 cal ammunition does not.
It also explains that 70-80% of shots fired by law enforcement personnel in deadly force situations are misses. Which means more bullets are always better than less bullets.
It also explains that accuracy is paramount above all else. And that the lighter recoiling cartridge improves the speed and accuracy of ALL pistol shooters.
If anybody has a valid argument against any of these key points, feel free to urinate up that rope.
Travis That's the fist I've ever heard of the .40 under performing in penetration, that was always it's strong suit...well, at least with the 180's. Other than that, I'd say you're spot on. Penetration is a lot about the bullet, as much or more so than the cartridge.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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All of that is very true.
We need to find a way to calm down our Cuban friend... Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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