|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
New study shows when round-count, accuracy and penetration are factored in, bigger isn't better.
A new study from the FBI’s Training Division shows that overall, the 9mm Luger pistol round is the best option for law enforcement handguns, recommending departments shouldn’t switch their side arms to larger rounds considered by many to be more lethal.
Based in a combination of factors, including so-called “stopping power,” weight and availability, the FBI study shows that the 9mm round penetrates far enough, allows for shooters to carry more rounds, and is more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds like the .45 ACP or .40 Smith & Wesson.
“Most of what is ‘common knowledge’ with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore. … Handgun stopping power is simply a myth,” the FBI said in its report. “There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.”
The study — which was concluded May 6 but has just been leaked online — comes as the U.S. military is considering a new handgun to replace its decades-old Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and some law enforcement agencies are debating whether to outfit their officers with heavier rounds. The findings may also help civilian gun owners decide which handgun to purchase for self defense and concealed carry.
Arguing “stopping power” only applies to shots to the central nervous system (the head or neck), the FBI says modern 9mm Luger ammunition retains most of the ballistic characteristics and penetration power as its larger-caliber brethren, but is easier to control and leads to more accurate shots.
The study shows most law enforcement shootings result in only about 30 percent of the rounds hitting their target.
“The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other,” the FBI says. “To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols. The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.”
So when the skill of the shooter — with many agencies and even civilian shooters unable to train on a consistent basis — is a factor, there’s no shortcut in shooting a larger-caliber round.
“While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance,” the study says. “Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.”
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,731
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,731 |
it's cause of all those women Feebs these days.
Sam......
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,694
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,694 |
The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.”
It also provides agencies with the option to train more for the same money, or save money in ammunition cost for the same number of rounds they have been purchasing on a yearly basis.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
The more I shoot the nine the better I like it. My first choice in a carry gun today is my Glock 19
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664 |
The study shows most law enforcement shootings result in only about 30 percent of the rounds hitting their target. 9mm = more rounds in the mag so they can miss more.
comes as the U.S. military is considering a new handgun to replace its decades-old Beretta M9 9mm pistol The military uses FMJ and a 9mm doesn't equal a larger hole.
What will the US government do with all of the 40 cal ammo it has hoarded?
I'll take a .357 magnum with good hollow points over a 9mm. YMMV
Last edited by Dave_in_WV; 08/24/15.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,234
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,234 |
The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.”
It also provides agencies with the option to train more for the same money, or save money in ammunition cost for the same number of rounds they have been purchasing on a yearly basis. So with all the money saved and all that extra training, more perps will be hit at center mass thereby enforcing the belief that the 9mm is an adequate manstopper. Based on that line of thinking, why not just go to the .380?
I could wish a lot of things on my worst enemy but neuropathy ain't one of them.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143 |
Boy am I glad that's been settled.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
It's not mentioned in the article but every armorer I've spoken to says the .40 is hell on guns compared to the 9.
Especially the 155gr duty stuff.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Boy am I glad that's been settled. You can finally sell off all those fancy revolver things you like so much. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,143 |
Boy am I glad that's been settled. You can finally sell off all those fancy revolver things you like so much. Travis Yeah, that is what I was planning on doing. Going to shave my head too.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
The difference in shooting the same pistol in 9mm and .40 (especially the absurdly hot practice ammo many agencies use) is undeniable.
If I need to shoot accurately, quickly, I'll take a 9 all day every day.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,566 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,566 Likes: 1 |
There aren't any known accounts of felons shot with a 9mm and saying "I read somewhere that the 9mm isn't effective, that didn't hurt!"
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
Bullet placement trumps pistol cal all day long
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,920 |
I don't have a big problem with the 9mm as a defensive round...what I don't like however is the 147 grain Subsonic ammo...regardless of the advances in bullet technology...
Still prefer the .38 Super or .357 SIG with a 115-124 grain bullet going over 1350 fps... In 9mm give me a 115 +P+...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 889
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 889 |
Boy am I glad that's been settled. yes, i am too...this "finding" is, in a sense, "enlightening" revelation. awhile back Form made a post essentially about "advancements in the precision rifle field/industry". i agree with the essence of his idea that "the gains/advancements/equipment/techniques" made in the field do not come from the governmental sectors--but rather--by the civilians who seriously work at this everyday. but the 'case closed, fbi says' "conclusion" is in my mind almost like "putting the cart before the horse, or driving the hammer with the nail." admittedly, the 9mm is a great round--my favorite handgun round--but i couldn't fully agree with this "conclusion"...
all learning is like a funnel: however, contrary to popular thought, one begins with the the narrow end. the more you progress, the more it expands into greater discovery--and the less of an audience you will have...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
I don't have a big problem with the 9mm as a defensive round...what I don't like however is the 147 grain Subsonic ammo...regardless of the advances in bullet technology...
Still prefer the .38 Super or .357 SIG with a 115-124 grain bullet going over 1350 fps... In 9mm give me a 115 +P+...
Bob now bob don't be running down the new equivilent of the 38special. Tain't nice. I was shooting a 38wcf, more than one, this weekend and snickering to a guy with me it's a 100 year old round that ballistically is a .40s&w. And i don't consider myself that great, i popped a beer can four out of six times out around 25 to 30 yards out of that old colt. The first round didn't count as i jerked the gun, first time i have fired it since around age of six. i don't have a lot of issue with the 9mm, it's been killing people for a long time. But i do think the ammo selection is a lot more important that for the .45.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,378
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,378 |
WOW I seemed to remember when the FBI said that the 10mm was the be all end all of handgun cartridges. Then they discovered that the on-paper ballistics didn't equal hits on target. Sort of like the 41 Magnum was going to be the cartridge when cops carried revolvers.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,694
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,694 |
The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.”
It also provides agencies with the option to train more for the same money, or save money in ammunition cost for the same number of rounds they have been purchasing on a yearly basis. So with all the money saved and all that extra training, more perps will be hit at center mass thereby enforcing the belief that the 9mm is an adequate manstopper. Based on that line of thinking, why not just go to the .380? Because 380 costs more than 9mm.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
plus 25 auto cost more than 380
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,639
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,639 |
I can't say that I fully agree with all the conclusions & I still prefer to carry a 45 caliber pistol, but I can say that I do carry a 9mm almost as much these days & I never feel like I'm either undergunned or nor at a disadvantage in carrying the 9mm loaded with 124 gr. Federal HST's.
The 2 undeniable conclusions that I can't argue with is that the 9mm is cheaper to shoot & that most people shoot it better than a bigger caliber handgun.
MM
|
|
|
|
579 members (1936M71, 10gaugemag, 1badf350, 12344mag, 01Foreman400, 16penny, 58 invisible),
2,519
guests, and
1,503
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,192
Posts18,484,986
Members73,966
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|