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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2013
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An interesting read. Link to article.
*Master of random precision*
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,530 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,530 Likes: 1 |
Most important consequence that may have been avoided: the Obongo presidency.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337 |
looking back it's pretty clear that things were slipping away from bush administration control.
it completely slipped away under obama's two elections.
it's unbelievable what piss-poor ldrshp this country has suffered under for the last twenty years.
and i thought johnson and ol jimmah were bad.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,674 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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Johnson is still WAY worse than Bush or Obama; he takes the cake for being the worst president of the 20th century by a good margin. Any other 20th century president could only be competing for 2nd place.
For me, the Iraq invasion was the best think we could do to help out Iran, and it has been borne out. We all but gave control of Iraq to Iran, and in the process massively strengthened Iran's influence in the Middle East.
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 26,647 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 26,647 Likes: 7 |
Iraq was not a bad move as Saddam was getting bolder & bolder defying the sanctions levied against his country.
Obama on the other hand was, is and will be bad for this country for many years to come!
FJB & FJT
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,556 Likes: 11 |
The fact remains that George Bush (and Rumsfeld and Cheney) lied this country into a war in Iraq with false claims of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.
It was a giant cluster-p h u c k).
Nothing good has come out it.
But a lotta people over here in America made a lotta money off of it.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806 |
WMD were found and some of our troops were poisoned by them.
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
Saddam was a harsh bastard, but he was a controllable harsh bastard and he kept the rest of those harsh bastards in Iraq under control.
Now, it's out of control and it's causing the rest of the Middle East to go out of control.
The maniacs who control America's foreign policy in the Middle East are trying to do the same thing in Syria and it's been left up to Putin to try to put the lid back on the Syrian Pandora's Box.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,422 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,422 Likes: 6 |
Pretty much what all of our allies were trying in vain to tell us, that Saddam was the lid on the pressure cooker. Remove him and - boom!
Also, IIRC, Geedub was concentrating on immigration at the time of 9/11 when those Saudis threw a monkey wrench into his plans. Now I forget what his plans were and maybe we'd have 50 million more Mexicans in the USA by now if 9/11 and OIF didn't happen.
Off topic a bit but, like the Kennedy assassination, I remember exactly where I was and what someone said to me when I first head of what was happening 14 years ago. Someone said they'd heard something on the radio about a plane crash in New York when someone else walked in the door. We asked him if he'd heard what was going on. He replied, "Yes, what's going on is the world as we know it just ended."
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Oct 2005
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
Here's what I had to say about it a decade ago. Essentially, the movers and shakers in the Bush administration have been lusting over the idea of a mass reshaping of the Middle East for quite a while.
9-11 was used as their justification for implementing this idea. They chose Iraq as their first stop because it had been rendered defenseless by the first Iraq war and a decade or so of restrictions.
An insurgency insued in Iraq, bogging down the coalition forces, and pretty much ruined the plans of the neocons to use Iraq as a base to launch further incursions into the Middle East.
Now, the current administration is just trying to come up with some solution which will allow them to maintain some semblance of "saving face" for their massive blunder.
To sum up, the law of unintended consequences "got hold" of the neocons plans and thrashed the dickens out of them.
The administration is at a loss on how to remedy the situation and is treading water while our military pays the price for the ineptitude of Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld. A good thread on the matter courtesy of the Wayback Machine. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/626178/1
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,994
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,994 |
Saddam was a harsh bastard, but he was a controllable harsh bastard and he kept the rest of those harsh bastards in Iraq under control.
Now, it's out of control and it's causing the rest of the Middle East to go out of control.
The maniacs who control America's foreign policy in the Middle East are trying to do the same thing in Syria and it's been left up to Putin to try to put the lid back on the Syrian Pandora's Box. Yeah, we controlled Saddam all the way into Kuwait.
Leo of the Land of Dyr
NRA FOR LIFE
I MISS SARAH
“In Trump We Trust.” Right????
SOMEBODY please tell TRH that Netanyahu NEVER said "Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away."
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
Two points:
1. Libya made public and then cancelled their nuke program, after Iraq was invaded - probably out of fear they'd be next. If Kadayfi had kept it going and successfully built a nuke, and then got over-thrown, there is no telling who would have them now.
2. Say Iraq did not get invaded, and Saddam had not been over-thrown. Then yesterday he dies, and his psychotic sons get in power. There is no telling what might then happen.
I think sooner or later, Iraq was going to be a big problem. Handling Saddam differently might have made a difference, but then caused a worse result elsewhere. But it's hard to guarantee that things would be better, had we not invaded.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 28,172
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 28,172 |
The fact remains that George Bush (and Rumsfeld and Cheney) lied this country into a war in Iraq with false claims of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.
It was a giant cluster-p h u c k).
Nothing good has come out it.
But a lotta people over here in America made a lotta money off of it.
The military-industrial neo-cons needed the war, so it was engineered. Our best move would have been to cozy up with Saddam and keep the lid on. He was all for that and told Albright just that; she gave him the go-ahead to take back Kuwait, which Iraq always considered a break-away part of Iraq after the Brits created Iraq. We in essence double crossed Saddam after we said we didn't care what he did about Kuwait. It was the neo-cons' "Gulf of Tonkin" moment.
Hunt with Class and Classics
Religion: A founder of The Church of Spray and Pray
Acquit v. t. To render a judgment in a murder case in San Francisco... EQUAL, adj. As bad as something else. Ambrose Bierce “The Devil's Dictionary”
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
Saddam was a harsh bastard, but he was a controllable harsh bastard and he kept the rest of those harsh bastards in Iraq under control.
Now, it's out of control and it's causing the rest of the Middle East to go out of control.
The maniacs who control America's foreign policy in the Middle East are trying to do the same thing in Syria and it's been left up to Putin to try to put the lid back on the Syrian Pandora's Box. More than a harsh bastard, he was corrupt dictator who though nothing of human life. The middle East is better off without him and Israel is better off without him. BUT, he was predictable, controllable and boxed-in. He was very wary of Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Ladin. He also ruthlessly kept any opposition under control (read Al Qaeda, ISSIS, etc.). He was a lot better asset than the current Iraqi government!
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,015
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,015 |
In retrospect, a US military backed coup d'etat was what should have been done. Put a strong man in place and execute high ranking Sadam allies while leaving the Iraq military and government institutions in place. Trying to institute democracy overnight in places with no history of it is a fools errand.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965 |
The fact remains that George Bush (and Rumsfeld and Cheney) lied this country into a war in Iraq with false claims of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. The fact remains that's a lieberal lie.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,222 |
Disbanding the Iraqi army shortly after the 2003 invasion was the most stupid thing we did, hindsight is 20/20. http://time.com/3900753/isis-iraq-syria-army-united-states-military/One expert estimates that more than 25 of ISIS’s top 40 leaders once served in the Iraqi military.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence". John Adams
"A dishonest man can always be trusted to be dishonest". Captain Jack Sparrow
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
Saddam was a harsh bastard, but he was a controllable harsh bastard and he kept the rest of those harsh bastards in Iraq under control.
Now, it's out of control and it's causing the rest of the Middle East to go out of control.
The maniacs who control America's foreign policy in the Middle East are trying to do the same thing in Syria and it's been left up to Putin to try to put the lid back on the Syrian Pandora's Box. More than a harsh bastard, he was corrupt dictator who though nothing of human life. The middle East is better off without him and Israel is better off without him. BUT, he was predictable, controllable and boxed-in. He was very wary of Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Ladin. He also ruthlessly kept any opposition under control (read Al Qaeda, ISSIS, etc.). He was a lot better asset than the current Iraqi government! You're saying two completely different things.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,556 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,556 Likes: 11 |
The fact remains that George Bush (and Rumsfeld and Cheney) lied this country into a war in Iraq with false claims of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. The fact remains that's a lieberal lie. laffin' Plenty of documented proof...places easily found on-line...where the President 'himself' (George Bush) CONFIRMED that there were NO weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. But some Internet 'patriots' know better than the President himself...! laffin' some more
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
Saddam was a harsh bastard, but he was a controllable harsh bastard and he kept the rest of those harsh bastards in Iraq under control.
Now, it's out of control and it's causing the rest of the Middle East to go out of control.
The maniacs who control America's foreign policy in the Middle East are trying to do the same thing in Syria and it's been left up to Putin to try to put the lid back on the Syrian Pandora's Box. More than a harsh bastard, he was corrupt dictator who though nothing of human life. The middle East is better off without him and Israel is better off without him. BUT, he was predictable, controllable and boxed-in. He was very wary of Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Ladin. He also ruthlessly kept any opposition under control (read Al Qaeda, ISSIS, etc.). He was a lot better asset than the current Iraqi government! You're saying two completely different things. Not sure as to what is different. Saddam was corrupt and a brutal dictator (towards his own people) and a threat to anyone he thought was weaker (e.g., Kuwait). But he could be contained and was for many years. He also gave Iraq a measure of stability; recall that following Ottoman rule, Iraq was a British post-WW1 creation of Shiites, Sunnis, Kurds and others. His brutal rule held them together as a single nation and prevented a lot of fighting that might have spilled over to other nations. A similar situation existed in Post WW2 Yugoslavia Serbs, Croatians, Macedonians, etc. This is what I was referring to.
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