Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles The Rimfire Alternative

All this talk on the reduced load thread has me thinking....then using the reduced loads in the field the last couple days has planted the germ of an idea in my head, that I think will fester into a full blown infection.
The Trail Boss load ( 8.0 gr) behind a 55 grain bullet in my .223AI looks to be motoring at 22 mag velocities, performs like a .22 mag, and actually makes less noise than one...with a plus factor in accuracy out to 100 yards.


Whats not to like?
A) Roll your own at a comparative cost
B) Low report
C) Get to shoot your 'bigger' guns more...
D) Have plenty of salvageable small game meat left...over using a standard load.
E) And you get to mess with more gun stuff!


Before any naysayers chime in wondering what the hell you'd do this for...its mainly "E"



I like messing with gun stuff.

Buttttt...Im really liking the low report and more consistent accuracy of the reduced loads, and there are more than enough rifles in the stable that I can have one 'dedicated' to reduced loads...or maybe two....

What say the 'fire?

I say you have voiced perfectly what I have been thinking this past few months. Shooting rimfire is fun but being able to mess with my rifles, load rounds and develop a special load for each rifle I shoot is much more enjoyable to me.

The 100 yard accuracy gain is the icing on the cake.

The noise reduction I think helped in shooting bunnies yesterday I was able to get a few doubles, and two triples...as the #2 and #3 bunnies didn't run at the report of #1

And they were all pretty close...within 60 or so yards...

that had to be fun...

I had a ball. Killed 18 bunnies, head shots only, in less than two hours...and that included the time to skin, dress and ice them all.


I was in here....bunny heaven.

cut those little rascals up, roll 'em in flour and throw 'em in hot grease. Follow that up with a good gravy, some biscuits and you've got a damn fine meal.

Lyman makes a 55gr double cavity mold in .224.

Might be just the thing to save you good jacketed bullets and have something that expands at bunny velocities.

I fry them in butter...do the rest and it is absolutely one of my all time fave meals. I put 32 bunnies in the freezer this week, so Im ready for a bit...

Haven't done the butter thing...I'd be concerned about smoke but it sounds like it's something I should try.
You have enough laid by to get you to Thanksgiving...maybe.

Do butter on medium heat or it will burn.....

Thanks for that. I'll give it a go.

Likely won't shoot any bunnies down here until we get some chilly weather. Can't get away from the old sage advise of waiting until cold weather too far.

Sounds like Montana is having a great bunny year.

We haven't had our first frost yet, but I habitually check all bunnies. No warbles, no tularemia, and I saw exactly one flea so far. They were all in excellent health.


Till the 55 grain Hornady express pulled into the station....

Pretty obvious high point in the cycle, and south of us in Wyoming they are thick on the ground like Ive never seen...but they want $20 a day for Non-res small game and have a limit of 10 bunnies.

wtf!

Montana has no closed season and no bag limit.

It would be cheaper...and messing with more gun stuff....


However, Ive got to say, they don't really need to expand a bunny velocities....

Yea, when you shoot everyone in the eyeball, it's kind of a done deal.

I was thinking it would be fun to do something similar for my girls. They will probably be taking mostly body shots at this point, so the lead bullets should work well for them. Should make for some fun bunny hunts.

Tom,

A couple years ago I did an article for HANDLOADER on "Beating the Rimfire Shortage," on considerable experimentation with various rounds to duplicate rimfire performance. I did buy a Lyman mold that with typical wheelweights throws a 43.5-grain roundnose, but the most accurate load in the .223 was the 40-grain Speer Spire Point and 16.0 grains of one of your old favorites, IMR4895. (I always have a large supply of IMR4895 n hand as well.) Muzzle velocity in a 22" barrel is just under 1600. 6.0 Trail Boss with the 45 Remington RN shot very well too, at around 1800 fps.

Lee recently released a new .224 design (not the Bator) and it's available in 6 cavity molds.

Kaine Bullet Molds also makes some interesting options that are more streamlined, and are for powder coating. 100-count sample packs used to be available from them pretty reasonable, might still be?

Of course, all this is a reminder why the old 22 Hornet is still around too.

Thanks JB...I'll be writing that one down!

Lead bullets on body shots should be great, especially at low velocity..." eat right up to the hole.."

John

I like the profile of that 44gr round nose. It even looks like a .22 bullet.

The 6 cavity Lee also looks interesting. I have a .355 Lee that casts nice bullets quickly. I might have to check out their new .225 mold as well.

I haven't seen any trailboss lately, but I have IMR 4895 on the shelf, and lately it's been available around here, so that could give me a good place to start.

Thanks all.

The Sierra 40 and 45 gr Hornet bullets are good for reduced loads too. i've worked with with Hercules/Alliant 2400 to get around 2000-2200 fps, approximating a 22 magnum

Accuracy is OK I presume.....

Sounds like you had a great hunt.. May have to head north after I hunt deer this next few days.. Glad you had a good trip with lots of shooting..

You don't need to go north of the MT border, hit that area around Lovell...its crawling with bunnies.

I forgot to mention that this is in a 222 Rem with a 20" barrel.

I was working from 8.5-11.0 grs of 2400 with 8.5 giving around 1800 fps and 11 giving around 2300-2400 depending on the bullet. Three shot groups varied from around 3" down to 0.6-0.8" with the better groups in the 10.0, 10.5 and 11.0 range.

It just so happens that I have a .222 laying around here someplace......

MD - that article was the basis for my experiments, as well as exploring possible sub-sonic loads, but I didn't quite get there with the 40gr bullets.

I got subsonic with Blue Dot, but then BD disappeared from the market. I suspect other powders of about the same burn rate would work, but haven't tried any in the .223, partly because I found it much easier to produce rimfire-equivalent loads in the .22 Hornet.

My Ruger No. 1B shoots the cast Lyman bullet to the top of the post in the Ballistic Plex reticle at 50 yards when the rifle's 3-9x Burris FFII is set on 6x, and sighted-in an inch high at 100 with full-power varmint loads. The powder charge is around 5 grains of 5744, if I recall correctly, and velocity is around 1100 fps.

Unique is pretty good for those real slow speeds....

a Cast Bullet manual is your friend.... tons of good and often overlooked info in those...nothing is high pressure, so you can use jacketed bullets instead of cast and be nowhere near SAAMI max pressure specs...

ya wanna live on the wild side, for subsonic loads in the 223, Hodgdon's Annual Manual lists using TiteGroup and a 55 grain FMJ....talk about double charge potential....3.1 grains...heck I've got more media dust in the case from tumbling probably....

Subsonic loads with a 55 grain FMJ in the 223 from the 2013 Hodgdon Annual Manual....

Trail Boss 4 grains 1074 fps No pressure given
Titegroup 3.1 grains 1064 fps 4000 CUP
Clays 3.2 grains 1060 fps 3700 CUP

there ought to be some fun hiding in there for a few of you guys...

So far Im liking the Trail Boss because you couldn't double charge it...easy to work with...

Found a can of Trail Boss at the local shop.. May try and load some up for later this fall..

Good info.. Thanks..

I've been fooling with .22 centerfires and cast bullets for almost 40 years now. Hornet, R2 Lovell, Max Lovell, .222, .223, and for sh*ts-and-giggles- .219 Wasp. Right now it's mostly with the Hornet. Out of a half dozen .22 molds in my drawer, the one I wish I'd had all along is the Lee Bator.

I have messed with Trailboss but because it takes so much more of it to equal velocities made with Bullseye, Clays, Unique, etc. I don't anymore. Better bang for the buck with the fast pistol powders, IMO, even if extra super care need be taken to prevent double/triple charges.

With the Bator bullet in the Hornet I like either 6 grains 2400, 1680, or Lil Gun- it really doesn't seem to make a difference in my gun. Performance is like a .22WMR, groups less than MOA out to 100 yards. For a more sedate load I switch to an old Ideal 225438 mold 45gr.±, and 2 grains Bullseye or 3 grains of either Unique or Universal Clays.

I only shoot rimfires anymore when I want to make bughole groups with a target rifle. For general plinking/experimentation/hunting I reach for a .22CF and cast loads. I never minded the Great Rimfire Drought as a result.

LOAD UPDATE


I just HAD to mess with things, so tried a couple more loads. The 50 grain Hornady Zombie Max ( aka V-max) and 8.0 grains of Trail Boss in the .223AI looks like where I want to be for awhile







Also got real good accuracy out of some Remington 55 grain HPs...but they didn't feed worth a crap.....

Did you chrono that load? looks similar to what I got with TB.

BTW - found a guy selling a 5lbs jug of TB about a month ago - I'm pretty set for a while. I did notice that the jug was the same size as a 8lbs jug of regular powder, so that shows you how bulky TB really is.

Just for grins, I have a cast bullet load for my 375 H&H with TB. 265gr GCFN @ 1500fps - really makes practice fun!

No, I haven't been able to chrono and have only my eyeball and trajectory to go by, and Im still guessing it in the 1900fps range...


At least trajectory matches up with similar data for .22 cal bullets at that speed.

And performance on game seems to put it right about there too....much more damage than a .22 LR but less than the faster 17HMR...

Cost is the same as 17HMR, interesting.....

Actually cost is less if you use budget bullets...and at those speeds the bullet doesn't matter much....

With Hornady 55 grainers I figure it runs me about $6.25 for fifty....With Z-Max it will be about $7

Tag




Thanks Boys.
Great stuff.

Yep I always hit the bins at gun shows looking for these to shoot from my Hornet at reduced loads for tree rats. Usually can Jew them down to about 10 - 12 bucks a box. That makes for pretty cheap shooting and great accuracy.

Looks like 492 rounds out of a 9oz jug.

0.14 per ZMax
0.04 primer
0.03 powder
0.02 brass

I get $11.28/50. But either way, I'd rather shoot my Tikka than RAR.

Just what I needed, something else to monkey with!!!

What's the scoop with cast vs jacketed and Trail Boss? Is that just for the cowboy stuff?

Ive not been shooting cast bullets, so can't help you, but check out the other thread on reduced loads on this forum, some guys chimed in with some good info on cast...

Don't know, but I intend to find out.

It works well for both.

I was thinking it was supposed to only be used with lead, but clearly that's not the case.

75 Amax and 22Mag outta the same rig. I like the idea.....

Not in 223 but in 243 got interested and had some extra powder and some bullets pulled from a long time back. Used the 47th Lyman book and tried some loads, found that W296 and Clays did a good job in pushing them down the barrel. Now beginning to think that Trail Boss would be fun to play with a bit.

This....from my OP...


Heres the idea: since I have more than enough " Varmint Rifles" and a spare action and stock laying around,I figure to barrel it with a plain jane .223 factory barrel, cut to 22inches, put it in the " Mountain Rifle" synthetic version stock, duracoat it and scope it with a Leupy 3x9 and make it a 'dedicated' reduced load ( i.e. substitute for a rimfire) rifle.....



Looney enough?



Whaddaya think?

INGWE

I use the 35 gr hornet bullet with a few grains of blue dot in my 223 rem. Works great!

Trail boss would be a better option but was not available then

I just bought 1000 of these.

BULLETS

Tom,

Your "dedicated reduced load" .223 idea is interesting, but why not just buy some .22 rimfire ammo? Or don'ty you have a .22? Or are you looking for projects to keep you busy?

The money made from selling all those rifle parts would pay for a whole bunch of 22 LR ammo, even at scalper prices.....

MD and PG...to help answer your questions I refer back to my OP.


If logic, rational thinking, or even economics was introduced into the looney line of thinking, none of us would be here reading/writing this.


I like messing with gun stuff!


It doesn't have to make sense? Does it?


And JB...Ive never been quite a fan of .22 LRs...yeah, Ive used them plenty, but again, I can rationalize all things gun.....

See above post on 22LR...meanwhile Im rationalizing phasing out the 17HMR....



That could change within the hour.

Stand by.

Better yet, buy a suppressor.

I went through the whole downloading the 223 thing for a couple seasons. Then I found that a suppressed full power 223 makes similar or less noise than the "tweener" round like the Hornet or 17 HMR, and I don't give up any trajectory or splat factor.

Thought about that, but salvageable meat is another consideration. Even on head shots with a full power 222 I occasionally get collateral damage. And besides, if I bought a suppressor, I wouldnt really be messing enough with my gun stuff!


As I intimated earlier, don't interject logic here! I'm on a roll!

Plus, now that we are legal to hunt big game with a suppressor, the purchase can be considered double useful!

WOW! I didn't know that!

Thats good news and wayyyyyyyy overdue !

Yep.

For some reason the bill didn't get much press when it passed.

Here's a link to some info:
http://americansuppressorassociation.com/montana-full-game-suppressor-hunting-now-legal/

Cool! Thanks!

I've been doing this stuff for years... Calhoon's Website got me going on it, with the 218 Bee or Not article...

allows a lot of shooting and is more accurate than a 22 LR...

originally I found that I could reduce load a 223 for less than the cost of 22 Mag ammo, and that was when it was like $7 a box of 50.. plus was more accurate and could be tailored to fit my desires or needs....

I liked the flexibility it offered, the economy of it, reduction in barrel wear, not having to stop and let the barrel cool off.. sure it isn't macho like full power loads, but I don't need that feeling anyway....

people who shoot my loads in my guns, love em...

right now I am messing with 12.5 grains of IMR 4198 in both the 223 and 22.250.... turns them both into very accurate 22 Mag equivalents... and with the right scope on top, gives me a 150 yd load, and if understand the trajectory thing...can easily give me a 200 yd load...

30/30 speeds....which at a 200 yd range is more than enough for my target shooting needs...and works well come varmint season.. ain't all I carry, but is what I do most of my shooting with....yet with the right bullets can be awfully explosive still....

Tom re inspired me to play with this stuff... so these 12.5 grain loads are now my Official "Ingwe Bunny Loads"...

Trail Boss, I've got about 7 lbs of that ( which will go a long way)... especially when 4 grains of it, are my official
"Ingwe 22 LR Substitute Loads"....

and as Tom said, its as much fun loading this stuff up as it is going out and shooting them...

still haven't forgotten my Blue Dot loads either... this just adds more fun to it all...

and Bulk Bullets and Nosler's Shooters ProShop are your friends... l

Nothing looney about it. Makes good sense to me....or does that just make me a Looney?

John, Im gonna write this one down and give it a try!

But first, you gotta tell me what weight bullet!

Inquiring minds want to know...

Well Tom,

Been playing with it earlier this week, but between my son being in an accident in his ambulance, then the Umpqua College Shooting ( his agency is the one in Roseburg that was called in ) and now I have to go home to Virginia for my aunt passing....I've gotten a little side tracked....

I haven't chronographed these yet, , but am guestimating the MV based on info out of a Lyman Cast Bullet manual based on their data...

but I have tested it this week for accuracy, out to 100 yds, in both the 223 and 22.250, with 50 grain Hornady SPs, 55 grain Hornady SPs, and 60 grain Hornady SPs....

each one was as accurate as my Blue Dot loads...

I can pass on, that with a 12.5 grain charge, IMR's 4198 is a lot more accurate than Hodgdon's 4198 was with these charges...

Since the pressure is so low on these loads also that:

1. Neck sizing is all that is needed for the next 4 reloads...

2. Pistol or Rifle primers work equally well...

a little higher pressure ( I assume) due to a higher point of impact with the rifle primers... but pistol primers worked just fine...

According to Cast Bullet load data, these loads are in the pressure range well under 20,000 CUPs...

as soon as I am back home from Virginia, I'll chronograph these....might be a week and a half to 2 weeks from now tho...I am going there by Road Trip...

In my Ruger American Predator ( 223) and the Steven 200 ( 22.250) these proved more accurate than Trail Boss in these two rifles...

also on the list for the Ruger, is 75 grain bullets with this powder charge... along with 68 grain Hornady HPs...

I am not looking for these to be an alternative to Trail Boss loads...( which I'll be shooting a bunch of this winter), but as a step up...right in the 2000 fps range..

Thanks John. As Always, good info!

I'll try some of these!


Im headed out of town myself this week, so It'll be a few days till Im back.

I am in utter concordance with this rimfire substitute idea, and have been for a few years. I ended up getting a Lee Bator mold and working up rimfire power level loads for 218 Bee and 223, and assisted my brother in doing the same for his 221 FB, 22 Hornet, 22-250. I opted for Unique and Blue Dot, he decided finally on Titegroup. We both picked two power levels: the lessor at about 1200, using non-GC Bators, and the greater at about 1600 using GC. I'm still working on accuracy problems for power level #3: 2k+. We were using a very soft alloy for the other two, and accuracy falls apart at about 1700 in my bee, and below that in 223. Have some harder bullets ready to load, but haven't gotten to it yet. These cast bullet loads are more accurate than my rimfires.

We moved on to work up loads for 17 Mach 4 and 17 Fireball with 20gr bullets and Titegroup to mimic the 17 M2 and the HMR as well. Accuracy hovers around 3/4" at 100.

OK...an outing with the 50 gr load ( Vmax) The load seemed to be a tad faster, and more destructive, no worries cause it was nothing but head shots, but the wounds were on par with the 17HMR.....shots were taken out to 75 yards. 20 bunnies in the cooler, all head shots with the reduced 50 grain load...

Heres the last nine.....

BBQ?, hassenpfeffer?

Dog toys?

Nice job, where do I apply?

Thnaks for the thread Ingwe. With any luck I'm going to try out the 25-20 with trail boss as my 22 substitute.

Geno

Most of those are destined for the frying pan, gravy and biscuits!

biscuits, gravy, and "furry things",

a man can't get a whole lot better than that.

Time for the hockey game. Nice that I can get them on the 'puter,

Enjoy those bunnies.

Geno

Please advise, I'll bring dessert...

Well, Ive laid in enough of them to last a year, so it'll be happening once a week....

OK, FWIW my spare rifle is at the Smith getting rebarelled to plain .223 and cut to 22 inches to ostensibly become a dedicated reduced load gun.......




I suppose I could shoot regular .223s in it if I ever got the hankering to...



Cant have enough .223s....right?

how fast will you twist the barrel?

Its gonna be a Rem. take off with a 1 in 12 twist...should handle 50s and 55s no problemo......

I've been out testing 80 grain Match bullets in a Ruger American Predator.... need to finish tomorrow...

just in case anyone has any interest in the results...

using 4198 vs Trail Boss...

I'm interested in you charge range of 4198

You know I'll be interested in your results.

I bet a 75 Amax would dig deep with Trailboss loads. I'm always impressed by what they do to rocks way out there.