Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Barnes Banded Solids - Experiences?

Can anyone comment on the new banded solids? Have you had good terminal performance? In your experience do they have a radically different POI compared to the TSXs? I don't have much experience using solids and have heard/read conflicting reports on just about every brand whether they be traditional construction or monometal.
ANy help would be much appreciated! Thanks.

UtahLefty,

I used a 458 Lott with 450 grain Barnes banded solids in Tanzania in 2005 on three buffalo. They were absolutely awesome in thier performance. I also had with me an identical load, but with 450 grain TSX bullets, and the two grouped within 1/2 inch of each other.

I was exceptionally well pleased with both bullets, but I used only the banded solids on the buffalo.

Tom

I have never used the Barnes solids since the Barnes bullets are unsuitable for my double rifle.

I have used Woodleigh .458", 500gr solids and they have worked well. I have also used North Fork .458" 450gr flat nosed solids and these are phenominal, giving fantastic penetration.

For buffalo I would use the North Fork cup point bullets which penetrate about 20% less than the flat nose solids and expand just a bit for a good wound channel. I haven't used them but those I know who have had great results.

JPK

I've ordered a box to see how they shoot. I'm soon to place a n order for a bolt actin 416 rigby. In the meantime (as many now know) I've gotten ahold of a #1 and am trying out different loads to get a feel for shootability. In principle, tha A-Squares should be the easiest to get shooting to the same POI but I'm not convinced they are worth more than twice as much as any other bullet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. I have tons of experience with TSX & X which is why I wanted to try this one. I may try the woodleighs too.. I was hoping some with real world experience would help narrow the field for me. thanks for the replies!

I have nothing but positive things to say about Barnes Solids and Woodleigh solids. I used Barnes solids in my 450/400 to take an elephant in Cameroon. I am able to get them to regulate in my double rifle very nicely. The banded solids are easier on the bore and foul a little less than the old style. If you like the TSX, go for it.

Hatari,

There are many in the double rifle community who believe, as I do, that the Barnes solids are unsuitable for double rifles. Some mono bullets have accomodation for material displaced when the bullet engraves on the rifling. Examples would be North Fork, GS Custom, Bridger. Barnes, including the banded solids, as well as Trophy bondeds are not on this list.

No issue for a single barrel rifle.

If you would like to discuss this, and perhaps avoid expensive repair to you double rifle, please PM me.

Best,

JPK

JPK,

I'm always interested in such things and will PM. The concept has come up, but never explained satisfactorily for me.

I will say that the terminal performance of the monos has been good to me.

JPK, that's been bandied about for a while without a plausible explanation (A square even dedicated several pages in their manual to it). Please share info if you can! We'd all be interested in your take.

The long and short of the arguement is that the Barnes style solids, X's, TSX and the banded solids don't provide for material displaced by the lands engraving the bullet and they are made of pretty hard metal through and through.

The Woodleigh solids do accomodate material displace in the engraving to some degree. When the bullet begins to engrave the steel jacket gives enough for the lead to be squeezed and displaced. I find direct evidence of this in the small "tit" of lead protruding from the hole in the center of the base of the bullet on recovered Woodleigh solids.

Standard softs accomodate the displaced material when the core is squeezed and displaced forward.

North Fork, GS Custom and Bridger bullets have many narrow - measured from front to rear of the bullet - driving bands and behind each band is a groove sufficiently wide - again measured from front to back of the bullet - to accomodate the material displaced when the driving band ahead of it engraves. The shank of the bullet doesn't touch the barrel, or just barely in the case of a tight barrel. Blow by is prevented by the number of driving bands.

The bands on the Barnes are too far apart to accomodate the engraved material in any meaningful way.

All bullets cause the barrel outside diameter to expand where the bullet is passing through. Because the Barnes do not accomodate displaced material they cause the barrel to expand enough to cause sufficient relative motion between the barrels and ribs of a double rifle to work and eventually break the solder joints.

There are reports of this happening in from just a few rounds to reports of it never happening with a particular rifle. Woodleighs solids are not so easy on barrels either and seperating ribs have happened with too many Woodleigh solids too.

The worst problem is that of overstressed rifling, as it is called. The lands can be forced back into the meat of the barrel steel, or even worse, forced "through" the steel so that the rifling is visible on the outside of the barrel. This is limited to rifles that were used with mono bullets, and not Woodleigh solids as I understand.

I have seen a few photos of double rifles with the rifling visible on the outside of the barrel. I know fellows who have had to have the ribs of their double relaid after shooting Barnes style monos, but more than a mere handful.

The Trophy Bonded softs and solids are thought to be in the same legue as Barnes type bullets because of the solid shank toward the rear of the bullets. I'm not so sure on this theory.

None of this is any issue with single barrel rifles.

Double rifles thought to be most susceptible to the problem are pre WWII English rifles. I think similar period continental rifles are equally susceptible, but you don't here so much about them. The thinking is that barrel steel back then wasn't what it is now or after WWII and that many barrels were made light to acheive the excellent handling. Also, many of these older rifles have seen a reblack or two or more and with each goes a bit of barrel steel.

In any case, with so many excellent bullets out there, why take a risk with a double rifle, especially a vintage rifle?

JPK

I should add that I'm sold on the North Fork solids, which are a mono bullet, but with the many narrow driving bands and many grooves to accomodate the displaced material. Their .458", 450gr flat nose solid provides incredible penetration in elephants and buffalo and no noticeable loss of impact effect compared to the 500gr Woodleigh solids. Penetration of the North Forks far supassed that of the Woodleighs, which is still sufficient for any first shot and most any second shot.

JPK

Excellent, excellent post. This is precisely why I like these forums so much, well-reasoned and insightfull postings to keep some of us amateurs out of trouble! So JPK, aside from the NFs, are the Woodleighs second choice or are there others out there you can recommend? jorge

I have no personal experience but the GS Custom bullets are suposed to be excellent. They are made in South Africa and there is no US distributor. They can be ordered by mail, but I've heard that delivery can be slow.

Bridgers are also supposed to be excellent, but the Gentleman who owns Bridger is fighting cancer and his bullets are not currently available.

The observations above are limited to the solids. I don't know anything about either company's softs.

North Fork softs are suposed to be excellent, but I have no experience. Likewise the Cup Point, but I have heard from fellows who have used them and they all think they're the ideal bullet for buff, replacing the need for another solid for buff. For those who may hunt in herd, I think a premium soft would also be a good idea. But, if you're using a suitable rifle and a premium bullet you still have potential pass through issues I think.

I'd hunt anything with my double rifle loaded with either Woodleigh or North Fork solids. For lion or leopard follow ups I'd prefer softs, but if all I had were solids I wouldn't hesitate.

Ther has been intrest expressed about some of the penetration test I did and the measurements I managed to take or observations I made with the solids I shot. When I get the chance I'll start a thread with some photos and a summary of the notes I took. Might take a couple of days.

JPK

JPK, looking foreward to it!!

To offer a sample of one:

I loaded 400 gr Barnes Banded Solids and 400 gr Woodleigh Weldcore softpoints with 76 gr of Reloder 15 in my CZ .404 Jeffery for my trip to Mozambique. Both loads generated just over 2300 fps, and grouped within 1.5" for four shots at 100 yards when alternated in the magazine. This seemed sufficient for Cape buffalo...



I shot the buff in the nose when he faced off at 18 yrds in the tall grass, and all we could see was his head. The solid penetrated the brainpan and exited three inches below the left horn boss. He did not charge <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. A subsequent insurance shot through both shoulders and the spine penetrated completely and buried in the Zambezi Swamp.

I like them a lot... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

jorgeI,
your sentiments echo mine.
if we pay attention we can learn a great deal here.
thanks to all

The left bullet is a pic of a recovered Woodleigh 500 grain solid. The engraving appears to be the same as on the soft.