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Joined: Jan 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2004
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I think what we really need is some rounds built for the AR15 frame (maybe with some modification) that are truley effective deer rounds. Yes I know the 223 with the right bullets will do it as will the 300Black Out and 6.8SPC but in honesty they're all on the small side. The AR10 frame is so big and heavy that it's not nearly as handy as the AR15 frame.
Some company needs to take this by the horns instead of just making the same thing that 50 other companies are making right now.
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,150
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,150 |
Oh, they'll still try, because once in a while a new cartridge takes off and sells a bunch of rifles. But most new rounds lose money, because it takes considerable money to develop one, which means they've got to sell a lot of rifles to break even.
I must comment for the second time on this thread that most of the "new" centerfire cartridges mentioned on this thread are just tweaks of really old cartridges, especially the various 6.5's mentioned. Several that not many Americans even know existed appeared very early on in Europe, and even the .260 was a wildcat long before Remington and Jim Carmichel claimed to "develop" it. I believe Ken Waters made up his version, called the .263 Express, in the early 1960's.
Even the .300 WSM is just another version of wildcats going back to the 1950's, and all it does is reproduce the .300 H&H in a shorter case. Of course, some people still believe Winchester's PR claims that the .300 WSM's case shape results in ballistic magic allowing higher velocities with less powder than other .300's, but so far no pressure-testing has found that magic.
The main reason so many shooters believe many cartridges are "new" is most shooters don't know much about the history of cartridge development. I suppose even the .17 HMR could be considered a tweak of the 5mm Remington--but unlike Remington, Hornady didn't try to develop a rimfire cartridge to directly compete with Winchester's .22 Magnum.
The original factory load of the 5mm was a 38-grain bullet at a claimed 2100 fps, but it simply didn't exceed the original 40-grain load of the .22 Magnum by enough to make any difference, especially in public perception. But the .17 HMR's an entirely different deal ballistically, using much lighter bullets at much higher velocity--and is also consistently far more accurate than the .22 Magnum. Which is why it became so popular, so quickly.
In contrast, most of the new cartridges mentioned here don't do anything much older cartridges didn't do ballistically, except fit in shorter magazines. But that's because shorter actions became popular, requiring new cartridges to fit them. The basic ballistic performance isn't any different than a pile of other rounds that were developed long ago, some more than a century. So,to put it in a nutshell; What's old is new again.
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,118
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,118 |
Yeah, and since AR's are now popular there's another "platform" for the same ballistics.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,150
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,150 |
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 624
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 624 |
6.8SPC is really close to being a 30-30 with better BC.
30-30 -> rimless -> .30 Remington -> necked down -> 6.8SPC
Over on 68forums, the standard load for a ARP barrel is something close to 30gr of AA2200 pushing a 95gr TTSX @ ~2900 fps. They do OK with most common hunting bullets up to ~115 grains. There aren't many deer-related jobs that won't get done.
If you feel you need more, there's the .30 Herrett, which is SPC necked up to .308. Runs 110gr in the 2700s and 125gr in the 2600s.
One thing you quickly realize after you step through the AR looking glass is that it attracts mechanically creative people. Pretty much any potential cartridge that could feed from the magazine has been necked up, down and sideways. If it hasn't been done, there's at least someone thinking about it.
Last edited by OlongJohnson; 11/21/15.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 64 |
An interesting "new" cartridge is listed in the 1962 Parker Ackley "Handbook" (pg. 442 1965 ed.) as the 30/378 Arch. A 378 cut down and necked down. 3400 plus fps with a 180 grain slug. Take that you 300 WSM fans.
Real new cartridges will feature no cases and electronic ignition, bores will be smooth and bullets will have fins. Our "new" ammo is about like our great grandfathers new ammo. Good ideas are persistent but a change is probably just around the corner.
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Posts: 6,935
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,935 |
Many shoopters think a strain-gauge will reveal the "real" pressure of their handloads. In reality, a strain-gauge doesn't provide actual pressures, and direct strain-gauge readings typically run lower than piezo-electronic readings. This is all presented clearly in the A-Square manual by Dr. Gary Minton, who was in charge of the ballistics and ammo department at A-Square, but a number of other professional ballistic lab people told me the same things over the years. Strain gauges are used widely in the ammo and bullet business, but are reasonably accurate only when their readings can be adjusted with reference ammunition worked up with piezo equipment.
I always thought that the A-Square reloading manual was the best product that Art produced, and I bought several copies to give to reloading friends... jim
LCDR Jim Dodd, USN (Ret.) "If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy."
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,126 |
I think that's the best of the WSM's and it's all but gone from any production rifle chambering line-up. Tough to find brass for them too. Agreed, too bad they came out a little later than the .270 & .300 WSM's. The slow start along with Winchester's plant closing and quality control (feeding from magazines) which gave all of the short fats a bad rap. I'm thinking the arms mfg. industry wants it to die because they would lose so much money from sales of calibers that it would hurt.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Many shoopters think a strain-gauge will reveal the "real" pressure of their handloads. In reality, a strain-gauge doesn't provide actual pressures, and direct strain-gauge readings typically run lower than piezo-electronic readings. This is all presented clearly in the A-Square manual by Dr. Gary Minton, who was in charge of the ballistics and ammo department at A-Square, but a number of other professional ballistic lab people told me the same things over the years. Strain gauges are used widely in the ammo and bullet business, but are reasonably accurate only when their readings can be adjusted with reference ammunition worked up with piezo equipment.
I always thought that the A-Square reloading manual was the best product that Art produced, and I bought several copies to give to reloading friends... jim Just did a search for A-Square reloading manual and it is going for $$$ now days.
Ted
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Any-Shot-You-Want-The-A-Square-Handloading-And-Rifle-Manual-/331623883418?hash=item4d3652e29a:g:RBkAAOSw9N1VxhtM
$750 on feebay
Ted
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,118
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,118 |
It's getting to the point where I might be able to retire by selling my "rare books." Also have a copy of RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS by Harold Vaughan, and a few dozen others that are going for quite a bit. Unfortunately, I don't really want to retire. What would I do? More hunting and shooting?
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 624
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 624 |
For car guys, there was a time when "The Unfair Advantage" was going for about $525 used. I was amazed that nobody in Los Angeles thought to check out a copy from the LA public library and pay the $50 lost-book fee. A couple years later, it was back in print.
Maybe if someone knew a publisher that would do moderate-volume runs of firearms related materials, some of these old titles could have new life...
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Posts: 1,063
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,063 |
I vote for the .327 Federal. After 125 years of smokeless powder, somebody figured out the .32-20 doesn't need a neck any more (no BP fouling) and straightened the case. That's progress, there. ;-)
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,778 |
This morning I was reading an old copy of Rifle that included a review of the 5mm. The original ammo exceeded specs by over 50fps and the downrange energy exceeded the mag a bit. I think the availability of the mag in revolvers plus the difficulty of handling the 5mm pressure (similar to the .17WSM) in ordinary rimfire actions killed that nice little round. We'll see how the new kid fares. With a good stash of brass and a bunch of cute little bullets, I'm sticking with my Hornet. If I was banging out a few hundred rounds a day at pdogs, I'd probably be singing a different tune.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,778
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,778 |
I think what we really need is some rounds built for the AR15 frame (maybe with some modification) that are truley effective deer rounds. Yes I know the 223 with the right bullets will do it as will the 300Black Out and 6.8SPC but in honesty they're all on the small side. The AR10 frame is so big and heavy that it's not nearly as handy as the AR15 frame.
Some company needs to take this by the horns instead of just making the same thing that 50 other companies are making right now. The .30AR already does that, being essentially a .300 Savage in an AR, but it seems to have flopped. I read somewhere that Big Green won't sell brass to protect their ammo sales, but don't know that for sure. Could just be a victim of the crunch. If true, someone needs to read them the Betamax story at bedtime.
Last edited by Pappy348; 11/23/15.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Posts: 7,082
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,082 |
How about the .458 x 1.8". I call it the .458 DNR as they approved it for Indiana Deer Hunting.
When truth is ignored, it does not change an untruth from remaining a lie.
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Posts: 319
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 319 |
It's getting to the point where I might be able to retire by selling my "rare books." Also have a copy of RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS by Harold Vaughan, and a few dozen others that are going for quite a bit. Unfortunately, I don't really want to retire. What would I do? More hunting and shooting? John, Where can I find what my books, guns and hunting, are worth? I have a lot of them and am old enough to need to sell almost all of them. If something happens to me, the kids will throw them away. I have the Harold Vaugh book. What is it selling for? Thanks, Dick
Last edited by Dick_Wright; 11/24/15.
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Posts: 60,118
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,118 |
Dick,
It's relatively easy to get an idea of at least asking prices for used books these days by checking websites like Amazon.com. I haven't checked lately on RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS, but the last time I did asking prices were in the $500 range, give or take.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 708
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 708 |
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Any-Shot-You-Want-The-A-Square-Handloading-And-Rifle-Manual-/331623883418?hash=item4d3652e29a:g:RBkAAOSw9N1VxhtM
$750 on feebay I'll let my copy go for $500
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Posts: 1,033
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,033 |
I'll let my copy go for $500
I've done a little buying and selling of collectible art photography books online. What you tend to see is people asking ludicrous prices for certain niche books that are in short supply, hoping that some desperate sucker will actually buy it. But, those books rarely actually sell at those exorbitant prices. As my father says, something is only worth a big price, if someone is standing there with cash in hand...
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