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Joined: Aug 2002
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,132 |
Thanks Hawk. I'm looking forward to getting this one to the range.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,132
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,132 |
CraigC,
If we're pissing over which one's got the more impressive ballistics, let's just move on up to a 454 or 480, or beyond . . . Not pissing. We can't have a discussion about it? Sure we can. I enjoyed your posts and learned a few things too.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,313
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
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The throats on this 45 are perfect. Could someone please help me out with the specifics of this pistol? The way I load nowadays, I can tell little difference between the performance of the two cartridges. My days of pushing the outer limits of are in the rvm. So when I’m picking it is usually done because of the platform rather than the cartridge. I do rather enjoy the S&W N frames and wish they produced more variety in 45colt, but it is what it is. So when I’m looking at DA it is usually 44mag when SA it is generally 45colt. That being said I do have a dandy 25-5 that I have owned for over 30 years and I covet mightily. AJD Actually, the N Frame S&W you are looking at there, owned by my friend, Jim, is an S&W 25-7 in .45 Colt. There were only 2,000 made according to my understanding. They came with came with a 5" barrel, unfluted cylinder, and were inscribed with "Model of 1987" on the side. I have one as well, and also know of one that was mutilated and turned into a snubby, so that only leaves 1,997 possibly left in the world for you to find..... Very accurate, and a pleasure to shoot with my loads of 250 RNFP at about 1,100 fps
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908 |
Starting Loads....................................................Maximum Loads
Bullet Powder Grs. Vel. CUP Powder Grs. Vel. CUP 310 cast H-110 21.5 1109 24,400 H-110 23.5 1316 32,000 310 cast H 4227 21 1016 24.900 H 4227 22.5 1164 30,000 310 cast #2400 17 1013 24.400 #2400 19 1172 29,400 310 cast HS-6 12.5 994 25.000 HS-6 13.5 1043 29,800
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 545
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 545 |
Brian Pearce's Redhawk only loads that approach 50,000psi, begin a half grain over Hodgdon's "Ruger only" data. Starting with 24.0gr under the 335gr CPBC, he gets 1366fps out of a 7½" Redhawk.
That's a half grain over max with a revolver three inches longer than my Bisley Vaquero.
335 Cast Performance WLN-GC Hodgdon H-110 24.0 1366
335 Cast Performance WLN-GC Hodgdon H-110 25.0 1424
335 Cast Performance WLN-GC Hodgdon H-110 26.0 1485
335 Cast Performance WLN-GC Hodgdon H-110 26.5 1511
Sheesh! My wrists would be swollen and begging for ice before I got through with a couple of cylinders of those top end loads. I had some 300 grain LRN .458's on the shelf (100 bullets marked $7, guess they'd been up there for a while). I resized them to .452 and loaded with 23 grains of H110. They were healthy, only shot six of them - holding the rest in reserve...or something. For a heavy Colt load I like the 270SAA bullet in a Tier 2 loading, accurate and doesn't beat your wrists up - and I'm pretty sure it'll thump anything that needs it.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225 |
Maybe my experience is different than others here. My choice of .44 Magnum or .45 Colt is NOT determined by terminal performance. The two rounds perform at a level that is too close to call.....they both work very well.
With that said I must admit that I am comparing loads pushing a 240-270 grain bullet at 1100 fps or so. At this level I have no problem killing any deer or hog that I might encounter and do so with comfort.
Yes the .44 and .45 can both be pushed much harder. I went through the days when I believed every round should be loaded as hot as possible.....but I got over it. If I regularly hunted Cape Buffalo with a handgun I might feel differently, but for my use the mid-level loadings are perfectly comfortable and effective.
For general use I prefer to go with the .45 Colt over the .44 Magnum.....not because of superior performance, but because of the guns available in this chambering.
The .44 Magnum was, from the beginning, a high pressure round and "most" revolvers chambered for it were built with this in mind. Thus they tend to be a bit bigger and heavier than a "typical" .45 Colt.
Elmer Keith did not choose the .44 Special over the .45 Colt because of some magical superiority of the .429" bore over the .452". He chose it because in the Colt SAA the cylinder walls were a bit thicker....a very important advantage when dealing with the high pressure loads he was using. Even then the strength of the SAA was "marginal" for loads in the 30,000-35,000 psi range. Remember Elmer "blew up" several revolvers when first developing the high pressure .44 loads.
For me, this becomes a problem. To safely handle high pressure loadings (in .44 Magnum as well as .45 Colt) the revolver must be built heavier and larger than a typical low to mid range pressure .45 Colt. I do not have large hands and find the typical .44 Magnum revolver to be just a bit too large to comfortable.
The SAA feels near perfect in my hand. My all time favorite .44 Magnum revolver is an original Ruger Flattop....which was very short-lived due to the fact it was not quite robust enough for a steady diet of high-pressure .44 Magnum loads. Even the N-Frame model 29 S&W is of marginal strength for heavy .44 magnum loads. The Ruger Super Blackhawk and other "proper" .44 Magnum revolvers are just a bit too much to be used every day....at least in my smaller hands.
I "could" solve this problem by loading the .44 magnum to mid-range levels (265 grain bullet at 1100 fps), but no manufacturer in his right mind will produce a .44 magnum revolver that can only handle lower pressure rounds. Thus, every .44 magnum revolver (with the exception of my beloved Flattop) is built just a bit too large for my hands.
The typical .45 Colt revolver (think SAA size) is just right for daily carry (in my hands) and will handle the mid-range loads I find to be so effective.
I think the .44 magnum has a place, but is not nearly so user friendly and versatile as the .45 Colt. The .45 Colt can be loaded to equal (or exceed) the .44 Magnum in a properly sized revolver.....but then I'd have to remember to not load those high-pressure loads in my SAA's and they would not be as comfortable in my hands due to the increase in frame size.
I own and will never give up my .44 Magnum revolvers, but they are more specialized than my everyday-carry .45 Colt. Each has it's place, but for me, the .45 Colt is my choice for everyday use.
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 127
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2014
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Own both, shoot both, killed plenty of deer with both, no differences in accuracy or killing power.
Does this .405 Winchester make my butt look big?
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,245 |
OK, assuming you plan to reload for either caliber and assuming both calibers are offered in the same pistol. Which would you pick and why? For me it doesn't matter, not a nickles worth of difference between the two performance wise, but I do think the 45 Colt is a bit more nostalgically cooler.
Trump Won!
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,401
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,401 |
I don't even like shooting standard pressure loads in the Redhawk, much less 50,000psi! A 335gr over 1500fps is going to be nasty! Make a great carbine load!
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,124
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,124 |
The typical .45 Colt revolver (think SAA size) is just right for daily carry (in my hands) and will handle the mid-range loads I find to be so effective. I agree and Colt-sized guns are my favorites for carry and general purpose use. Although I prefer the .44Spl in mid-sized guns such as my custom Old Model Blackhawk .44Spl. Along with several Colt's, USFA's and Uberti sixguns. But this discussion was more about, or became about, the maximum potential of the two options. The original Ruger flat-top .44's were the same frame size and strength as the Super Blackhawk that eventually replaced it. What made the Super easier to handle was the longer, heavier, steel grip frame. The only gun Keith ever "blew up" was a Colt .45 and that was just the loading gate. The Keith 1200fps .44Spl load has been tested many times at 25-26,000psi.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,849
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
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Starting Loads....................................................Maximum Loads
Bullet Powder Grs. Vel. CUP Powder Grs. Vel. CUP 310 cast H-110 21.5 1109 24,400 H-110 23.5 1316 32,000 310 cast H 4227 21 1016 24.900 H 4227 22.5 1164 30,000 310 cast #2400 17 1013 24.400 #2400 19 1172 29,400 310 cast HS-6 12.5 994 25.000 HS-6 13.5 1043 29,800
Not sure the source of this but its very close to my observations in a couple of 45 colts. My heavy load is 23 grains H110 over a 300 gr BTBWFN for 1250-1275 in my 5.5" Bisley. I've also run 2400 to 20 grains but can't recall the velocity - accuracy with H110 was much better. I also run HS 6 for a plinking load and run it 950 ish. I dig the 45 colt.
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908 |
Starting Loads....................................................Maximum Loads
Bullet Powder Grs. Vel. CUP Powder Grs. Vel. CUP 310 cast H-110 21.5 1109 24,400 H-110 23.5 1316 32,000 310 cast H 4227 21 1016 24.900 H 4227 22.5 1164 30,000 310 cast #2400 17 1013 24.400 #2400 19 1172 29,400 310 cast HS-6 12.5 994 25.000 HS-6 13.5 1043 29,800
Not sure the source of this but its very close to my observations in a couple of 45 colts. My heavy load is 23 grains H110 over a 300 gr BTBWFN for 1250-1275 in my 5.5" Bisley. I've also run 2400 to 20 grains but can't recall the velocity - accuracy with H110 was much better. I also run HS 6 for a plinking load and run it 950 ish. I dig the 45 colt. The source is Hogdon
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,521
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Posts: 3,521 |
Well, I ended up with a 45 Colt. After listening to the arguments for and against each one (I thought the thread was very civil for the most part BTW) it came down to this; I've owned several 44 Mags in the past but never a 45 Colt. It was really that simple in the end and reason enough for me. After the decision was made I planned on getting a Blackhawk convertible in the Colt/ACP variety but walked in a local gunshop and they had a SS Vaquero .45 Birdshead sitting on the shelf and it was calling my name. I've always wanted a birdshead revolver too and this kills two birds with one stone. I'm thinking this is going to be a fun pistol. Thanks for all the replies. There was actually a lot to be learned in those 4 pages. Terry That will make you a dandy little packing gun, even if you need to throw on a jacket & run into town. Great choice.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,857
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 15,857 |
While learning about heavy loads in the .44, I pushed the heavier projectiles at the best speeds I could get, using H110.
In the end I found out that while bullet weight helped, and 300+ grain .44s are exceptionally effective, shooting them faster than 1200 FPS really did not get me much, performance wise.
What I quickly realized was that shooting the heavy bullets at a more sedate speed provided substantially better accuracy on my part through recoil control. The 320s at 1350 may be just as accurate (mechanically) as 320s at 1200, but I personally could not shoot them as precisely.
240/250 grain loads are another subject entirely, but as far as the heavy for caliber 300+ grain 44s (and .45s) go, I see no reason to push them past 1200.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,108
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,108 |
Non-handloader, I'd say .44 mag. For Loonies, the .45 Colt offers a lot. It's my pick of the two and I have both. I took a .44 three screw SBH, had Jim Stroh line bore to .45 Colt, fit a 6" Shilen barrel, build custom sights, fit a long ejector. I did a trigger stop, tweaked the trigger to near perfection. DF It shoots: 20 yds. over a bag. Hog medicine, 270 gr. Thunderhead by Penn Bullets.
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,787
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,787 |
I'm thinking I want to load up some of those Thunderheads for my MG to test prior to bear season this year.
George
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,108
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,108 |
They do hit critters with a whallop; no they don't bounce off... DF
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,692
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,692 |
The throats on this 45 are perfect. Could someone please help me out with the specifics of this pistol? The way I load nowadays, I can tell little difference between the performance of the two cartridges. My days of pushing the outer limits of are in the rvm. So when I’m picking it is usually done because of the platform rather than the cartridge. I do rather enjoy the S&W N frames and wish they produced more variety in 45colt, but it is what it is. So when I’m looking at DA it is usually 44mag when SA it is generally 45colt. That being said I do have a dandy 25-5 that I have owned for over 30 years and I covet mightily. AJD Actually, the N Frame S&W you are looking at there, owned by my friend, Jim, is an S&W 25-7 in .45 Colt. There were only 2,000 made according to my understanding. They came with came with a 5" barrel, unfluted cylinder, and were inscribed with "Model of 1987" on the side. I have one as well, and also know of one that was mutilated and turned into a snubby, so that only leaves 1,997 possibly left in the world for you to find..... Very accurate, and a pleasure to shoot with my loads of 250 RNFP at about 1,100 fps Frogman did a good job there, and I can only touch up on one point. The barrel actually says "Model of 1989". IIRC the 5 inch stainless 625 in 45 ACP I had a few years back, was marked "model of 1988" Not sure what the 1987 gun was. Can't remember if those were guns from Ellett Brothers, or some other distributor.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,108
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,108 |
I have one of those .45 Colt 25-7's with unfluted cylinder, "Model of 1987" on the barrel. Sweet gun, very smooth.
Didn't know they were that rare.
What they worth?
BTW, I got a Brownells tool to ream throats, have done all my .45's that were too tight. They now all Kosher, shoot great.
DF
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,692
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,692 |
After your post, I had to go dig mine out and make sure I read that right. Sure enough, mine does say 1989.
Whatever year your pistol says, if it is a Smith 25-7 with a 5 inch barrel and an unfluted cylinder, you have a dandy.
I like mine quite a bit.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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