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Joined: Jun 2006
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,273 Likes: 14 |
That, to me, is where the ethics come into play...the difference between the 90% lead pipe cinch, and the 50-50% call that could as easily result in a wounding circus as a clean miss. That's where the shoot/don't shoot ethic comes into play for me. I'm never going to say don't do it,but think a guy should really deal with better odds than 50-50,which is actually a really terrible field shooting average on BG animals. I agree 100%.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,936 Likes: 5 |
I didn't see any hunting in the video. Of course not. It was only a few minutes long. You didn't see the hours of time hiking over hill and dale HUNTING before they got ready for the shot.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,266 Likes: 5 |
If you need a lesson on why this is more shooting than hunting, then you wont get it.
Not calling for anything to be banned or outlawed, but the shooter and crew get no atta boy IMo.
For all I care, they could keep at it, I could give a [bleep] what some other guy is doing.
But if you cant get closer than 1400 yards, maybe you need to work on the craft a little. And if you didnt try, then you are shooting more than hunting.
Do I have to have different rifles to do these two things? Or can I still use the same gun, it just totally changes at X yards? You could have 1, 2 or a hundred rifles. I couldnt care less what you or anyone else does. You want to call this hunting? A kids dad setting him up behind a gun, dialing up everything including the video crew & video cameras, and then shooting and missing a deer 1400 yards away, a kid who frankly looked about as excited as one who just got a C+ on his homework? OK. I was taught differently and hunt differently. YMMV
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,273 Likes: 14
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,273 Likes: 14 |
A kids dad setting him up behind a gun, dialing up everything including the video crew & video cameras, and then shooting and missing a deer 1400 yards away..... I hesitate to say this but if that truly was the kid's first elk, as a parent there's no way I'd let my son or daughter take that shot, much less put him/her up to it. Too much can go wrong and I'd hate to saddle my kid with the memory of a bad hit and a lost elk on his first one just because he was following my lead. If he's going to make a mistake and lose an elk I'd want that to be his decision, not mine.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
I didn't see any hunting in the video. Of course not. It was only a few minutes long. You didn't see the hours of time hiking over hill and dale HUNTING before they got ready for the shot. You have to make a lot of assumptions to believe there was any hunting going on. For myself, I doubt it. I suspect they knew the area and either knew aforehand or were pretty sure the elk would be there. I can take you to areas where there are almost always elk and an opportunity for a long shot like that would pretty much be a daily occurrence during Colorado's rifle seasons. Drive up followed by a five minute walk, if that. No indication in the video that this place was any different. IMO it was a set-up from the get-go and the kid and elk were little or nothing more than props for the video.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
I hesitate to say this but if that truly was the kid's first elk, as a parent there's no way I'd let my son or daughter take that shot, much less put him/her up to it. Too much can go wrong and I'd hate to saddle my kid with the memory of a bad hit and a lost elk on his first one just because he was following my lead. If he's going to make a mistake and lose an elk I'd want that to be his decision, not mine.
Agreed. In 2014 I lost my first elk in 32 years of hunting them. I still get angry at myself and a sick feeling in my stomach every time I think about it.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,936 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,936 Likes: 5 |
Coyote_Hunter, In 2014 I lost my first elk in 32 years of hunting them. Tell us the difference in your elk that got away and what you are complaining about.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
Precise may not be precisely the right word--and the book is translated from Spanish, so may not be precisely what Ortega y Gasset meant. It would depend on the animal and terrain, as well as the range.
Yes, humans have always used technology to defeat animal's survival, which I thought was obviously a part of my post, where I mentioned using a club instead of a rock. If we wanted to get even more picky, we'd use a hand-held rock as an example of technology, instead of choking or biting an animal to death.
But that's not the point. If humans have to kill and eat animals to survive, we've always found ways to do it, ranging from digging pits, making snares, driving them over cliffs or into lakes, or whatever else works.
However, Ortega y Gasset's essay isn't about subsistence hunting. Instead it's about is generally called "sport" or "recreational" hunting, even though we often eat the meat and it may even help us get by economically. If I had to get some meat to avoid starving to death, then I'd use whatever means possible. But that's not what we're discussing, so claiming using technology is OK, because humans have always used technology for obtaining meat, is irrelevant.
Of course we've always used technology, since the use of technology is one of the definitions of being human. Instead we're talking about the essence of modern hunting, which is not basic survival. And discussing it all not around a campfire but on computers linked to the internet, I think that is unethical.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
BTW I don't think thats anyway to take your first animal either. It would not be with kids if we had any.
But I can sure see the time and place, especially for some of the youth competitors out there that are national champs and the like... the ability to make the shot at times and in places, is there.... Just have to know when and when not to.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,236 Likes: 29
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,236 Likes: 29 |
Discussing anything on the Internet is obviously unethical, because Al Gore invented it.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
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Coyote_Hunter, In 2014 I lost my first elk in 32 years of hunting them. Tell us the difference in your elk that got away and what you are complaining about. First, I'm not "complaining", merely commenting. What other people do is up to them but what these people in the video did wasn't something I would do and no. I don't give them any kudos for their "hunting" skills as I didn't see anything I would remotely consider "hunting" in the video. The elk I lost was the first and only one I've lost since I started elk hunting in 1982 and would have been the 14th for me since 2000 (15 years). Not at all sure just how many more I took between 1982 through 1999, or how many I passed on during those years because the shot opportunity didn't measure up to what I was comfortable with. A second difference is I hit the elk with the first and only shot. In spite of the most massive blood trail I have ever seen, it escaped to private land where we couldn't follow. The dark blood and chest-high blood on the brush on both sides of its trail suggested a liver hit with a pass-through. Another is that the range was 389 yards, not 1376 yards. I practice pretty regularly out to 600 yards and when the wind cooperates I am able to hit clay pigeons at that range on a pretty regular basis - something I proved two weekends ago to hit 8 clay pigeons at 600 with about 30 tries. While that is only about a 27% success rate all but a couple would have hit an 8" plate and I believe all would have been in the kill zone for an animal the size of an elk. I underestimated a crosswind, which we couldn't see or feel from our position, and that lead to my shot hitting the elk a bit further back than I intended, assuming it was indeed a liver hit. Add 1,000 yards and there is a lot more room for things to go wrong, as the kid's first shot miss proved. Finally, I actually "hunted" to obtain the shot opportunity, something you suggest the people in the video did but without any evidence to back up your claim. Convince me that the video wasn't just a promotional video with the kid and the elk being props.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,936 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,936 Likes: 5 |
Coyote_Hunter, you suggest the people in the video did but without any evidence to back up your claim.
Convince me that the video wasn't just a promotional video with the kid and the elk being props. You and I are just the same. You are speculating they didn't hunt to get the video shot and I speculated they hunted to find the elk.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1 |
Recreational hunting, hunting for sport, as concept is what we've been discussing. The notion of sport implies rules, standards, and boundaries. Many have asked if the technologies, which have made successful ultra long range shooting accessible to the masses–– when used in the pursuit of game, conform to conventional notions and accepted norms delineating the scope of "good" sportsmanship. Battue references "fair chase", a long standing ideal frequently integral to many descriptions of acceptable sportsmanship.
Society evinces its notions of sportsmanship in the broadest sense through laws regulating hunting. While these laws are unavoidably influenced by widely shared ethical norms, they are not society's proclamation of an rigid ethical doctrine. We as individuals, are free, within the broad bounds established by law, to individually determine the scope and nature of sportsmanship in our personal pursuits of game. Every interaction potentially involves a novel set of choices. Choices about fairness and responsibility to the game animal.
Our choosing is not arbitrary. The sporting pursuits have a tradition of thoughtful and self reflective consideration. We're taught notions like "fair chase", honor, duty, and responsibility. Sport hunting is a luxury, not a necessity, that demands its participants individually develop and apply these notions. This is our heritage.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,814
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,814 |
Just to throw it out for consideration. The Dad's face looks familiar and I'm sure I've seen him on some LR hunting show. Perhaps he owns the rifle company being used? Which if this is the case I doubt if the Kid hasn't had a pretty good foundation in LR shooting. At the end they even commented on the fact they have steel that goes past a 1000.
Hunting or shooting, it is up to the individual to decide, but I doubt if many of us here could hang with that Boy when it comes to shooting.
Last edited by battue; 02/28/16.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16,972 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16,972 Likes: 2 |
I made a post on another thread that shooting critters haplessly at long range was bad karma.. Ringman asked this... Spotshooter, I don't understand what you're trying to communicate in your post. Would you elaborate, please?
this time I'll answer and cut to the chase - Would it be OK for a God, or "God" to be careless with ending a life and causing crippling, or long suffering death ? When you shoot an elk at a range it never, ever could be capable of defending itself via sensing you (and they've seen me at 100's of yards, but not at 1000 plus)... Then you are playing God and being careless... If you play the "not careless card" - well your a liar. I think my quote was - you'd better hope God isn't as careless as you are... The inferred principle is the gold end rule... God to no a God... Humans have dominion over critters, and our quality as gardians of them is shown by how careless we are with them, especially when harvesting one. Tech makes people flinpet about responsibility... The Internet is a good example. So go forth and multiply - .. Either responsibility, or otherwise. Cheers Spot
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 11,273 |
Just to throw it out for consideration. The Dad's face looks familiar and I'm sure I've seen him on some LR hunting show. Perhaps he owns the rifle company being used? Which if this is the case I doubt if the Kid hasn't had a pretty good foundation in LR shooting. At the end they even commented on the fact they have steel that goes past a 1000.
Hunting or shooting, it is up to the individual to decide, but I doubt if many of us here could hang with that Boy when it comes to shooting. His Daddio and Uncle are the owners of Gunwerks.... Rifles, scopes, ammo, classes, undies, etc.... Just for conversation.... Tanner
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,936 Likes: 5 |
Spotshooter, Would it be OK for a God, or "God" to be careless with ending a life and causing crippling, or long suffering death ? You are using limited human intelligence to ask about an Infinite Being. I don't approve of all God does. What that shows is I don't understand. God brought about a world wide flood. If you look in the fossil record you see millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock. Many of them have broken bones and many display evidence of extreme suffering. God does not need my input and I am certainly not qualified to judge His actions. When I go hunting I use binoculars. I am always delighted when I find game before it knows I'm there. Many times the animal knows I'm there and goes on alert. Sometimes they wait to see what's up and sometimes they immediately run. My longest kill on game is a measured 400 yards. My longest on a varmint is 527 yards. I don't condemn someone for killing an elk with a spear; the way some here did awhile back. I don't condemn someone for killing an elk at 3/4 of a mile with a rifle. I do my thing; which includes posting on the net. If you play the "not careless card" - well your a liar. I have no idea what you are saying in this sentence.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1 |
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Coyote_Hunter, you suggest the people in the video did but without any evidence to back up your claim.
Convince me that the video wasn't just a promotional video with the kid and the elk being props. You and I are just the same. You are speculating they didn't hunt to get the video shot and I speculated they hunted to find the elk. The same? Not hardly. You stated pretty flatly that “You didn't see the hours of time hiking over hill and dale HUNTING before they got ready for the shot.” There is no evidence in the video that that is how it happened. To the contrary, the fact that the father talked about a gong at the odd range of 1360 yards makes me very suspicious that this was a pre-planned shooting, long in the making. Nowhere, however, will you find where I claim it didn’t happen – I merely have strong doubts. In any case, I stand by my statement that I didn’t see any hunting in the video.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,273 Likes: 14
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,273 Likes: 14 |
His Daddio and Uncle are the owners of Gunwerks.... Rifles, scopes, ammo, classes, undies, etc....
Undies? They got Realtree Scentblockers in stock?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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