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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
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smokepole, Well, speaking strictly for myself, I don't need Mr. Chouinard, you, or anyone else telling me why I hunt. I'm pretty sure I can figure that out for myself. There are lots of different reasons people hunt and not all are as grandiose as "gaining physical and spiritual growth." Some hunt so they can spend time with friends and family. Some just like to get outdoors. Some want to put meat in the freezer, and some really need to put meat in the freezer. The reasons I hunt change over the course of a season, and also change depending on the animals I'm hunting.
To use your terminology, anyone who presumes to speak for all hunters on "why we hunt" has his head firmly up his [bleep]. At my campfire we all sit around and sign Kumbaya. Oh, wait a minute. I usually hunt alone. Well reasoned post, smokepole.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
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Wildcat33, never mind Ringman. He's only got one soapbox and he's always on it. Nope. I disagree with Ringman on a lot of things, but getting on a soapbox is not something he does. In fact, he's pretty much the opposite when he talks hunting methods, there's not much he objects to. Your right, it was a poor attempt at a joke on my part.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
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No worries, most of my jokes fit that description.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Well, speaking strictly for myself, I don't need Mr. Chouinard, you, or anyone else telling me why I hunt. I'm pretty sure I can figure that out for myself. There are lots of different reasons people hunt and not all are as grandiose as "gaining physical and spiritual growth." Some hunt so they can spend time with friends and family. Some just like to get outdoors. Some want to put meat in the freezer, and some really need to put meat in the freezer. The reasons I hunt change over the course of a season, and also change depending on the animals I'm hunting.
To use your terminology, anyone who presumes to speak for all hunters on "why we hunt" has his head firmly up his [bleep]. Hunt for whatever reason you want. I'm not talking about meat hunting with friends and family or just to get outdoors. I'm saying that if you're going trophy hunting; going after horns and bragging rights, then the way you do it does matter, in my opinion. Killing from a 1000yrds? That's not a hunter, that's an [bleep]. How about learning some woodcraft and stalking skills instead. Show me a youtube video of a guy making 1000+yrd shots on elk because times are tough and he needs to feed his family and I'll send you my address and you can send me that soapbox you promised.
Last edited by wildcat33; 03/02/16.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,937 Likes: 5 |
wildcat33, How about learning some woodcraft and stalking skills instead. There are probably many bow hunters here who have, like me, killed game from a distance of less than twenty steps......and have the ability to make a 1000 yards first round hit. Now what?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Member
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Ability to do something doesn't mean that you should. Your bowhunting success shows a level of skill most only dream of. That's a game of man vs animal that goes back to the dawn of time. At any moment the wind could shift, a branch could rustle, an arrow could knock against your quiver, and the animal has a chance to win the game. The same cannot be said for the second situation.
I believe that marksmanship should be the cornerstone of a good hunter. When and how to apply that is a personal choice. If a man considers something like the B&C fair chase statement and feels that a 1000yrd shot does honor to the hunter and the hunted then so be it. I opine that it does not.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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To my mind, shooting game at that distance is very I sportsman-like. It's not hunting, its target shooting regardless of age or ability. Come on, at least get within 500 yards. I'm not an archey hunter, but I have to utmost respect for those that are.
Last edited by Dr_Lou; 03/02/16.
************************ NRA Benefactor member
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
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Dr_Lou, Come on, at least get within 500 yards. Why not say 300 yards?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Dr_Lou, Come on, at least get within 500 yards. Why not say 300 yards? It was tongue in cheek - I forgot the proper emoji.
************************ NRA Benefactor member
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Ringman, I know it was simply two letters turned around and easy to figure what you meant, but the mental picture I got of you sitting around the campfire and signing Kumbaya was worth a pretty good laugh.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,273 Likes: 14 |
I believe that marksmanship should be the cornerstone of a good hunter. When and how to apply that is a personal choice. Killing from a 1000yrds? That's not a hunter, that's an ass-hole. Wildcat, can you reconcile these two statements? If when and how a hunter applies marksmanship is simply a personal choice, then how is it that a hunter making that personal choice is an ass-hole?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
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Hunt for whatever reason you want. That's good, we're making progress. We've gone from "hunting is for spiritual or physical growth" to acknowledging that people hunt for their own different reasons. It's a start. Show me a youtube video of a guy making 1000+yrd shots on elk because times are tough and he needs to feed his family and I'll send you my address and you can send me that soapbox you promised. What if I showed you a video of a guy making a 1,000-yard shot because making that shot is what turns his crank? Are you going to say that his reasons for hunting are not as good as your reasons, and he's an ass-hole? I don't think I need to send you a soapbox, you've got a pretty good one of your own. Or is that a pedestal?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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All four sentences? Don't know if I'm up to it. BTW, I wrote an article for Colorado Outdoors magazine about those goofy muzzleloader regulations. That's not a subject I'm unfamiliar with. Comparing what is considered a "primitive weapon" (and regulated as such) to modern rifles used for long-range hunting is apples and oranges.
Your post questions whether we have the "political will" to ban scopes or otherwise restrict equipment used on modern rifles. That skips right past the implication (and makes the underlying assumption) that banning scopes is "the right thing to do" and is not happening because our politicians and electorate don't have the will to do it.
So far as I know, there are zero movements afoot to ban scopes, and no pending legislation. So yes, I comprehended your post, and I can unequivocally say that its underlying premise is without basis.
Slashing the federal budget deficit is something that should be done, but we lack the political will to do. Banning scopes for hunting is just a stupid idea espoused by one guy on an internet forum; a solution in search of a problem. Polesmoker, The subject of banning LR guns was the question at hand. You said it couldn't be enforced. I used muzzleloaders as an example and said they could place similar restrictions on rifles. I don't see how primitive weapons is apples to oranges. It is a tool used to take game animals that the government regulates. Pretty simple to see the similarities. I never said I was in favor of banning scopes, only that it could technically be done and would solve the issue of 1000 yard kills. You need to relax a bit. Maybe try some of that Colorado green?
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
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Polesmoker,
The subject of banning LR guns was the question at hand.
No, banning LR guns was not the subject at hand, or the subject I commented on. Why don't you go back and see for yourself. Read the posts twice if you have to. You're the one who injected the idea of banning scopes into the discussion. I don't see how primitive weapons is apples to oranges. Yes, that's readily apparent, so let me explain it to you. They're different weapons, and they're used in different seasons under different conditions. So not surprisingly they're regulated differently, and for different objectives. In CO and other states muzzleloaders are used in special early seasons. In CO the season falls during the elk rut, and before the general firearms season. Centerfire rifles generally can't be used during the rut. So hunters using muzzleloaders have the huge advantage of hunting during the rut, before everyone else gets a crack at the elk. Hence there is a need to limit the effective range or too many bulls would be taken by a relatively small number of hunters. There is no similar need to limit the effective range during the general season. If too many animals are taken during the general season the DOW will cut the number of tags the next year to let the numbers rebound. The two seasons have different objectives--the general season is used to manage the population, and the special early seasons are used to provide "increased recreational opportunities" meaning more hunters in the field spread out over the season. I got that information from interviews with the DOW staff who worked on the regulations. I never said I was in favor of banning scopes... No, you just said that scopes could be banned to limit LR hunting. Great idea, that. Come to think of it, so could rifles.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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I'll bring up the point of terminal performance of a bullet from that range. No matter how accurate a shot is, there comes a distance that a bullet loses enough energy to ethically perform. So beyond the whole accuracy thing, there's the compounded effect of, or rather lack of effect, of the bullet. Never mind the trouble of combining a high BC design and one designed for terminal performance on game.
Even a 338 Lapua like cartridge will essentially be like a 357 magnum around 1000 yards. Just fine if we can place our shot right in the boiler room, but that boiler room of even a large elk shrinks down to about 1 moa from this ultra long range. I know people can shoot those kind of groups, but that happens after adjusting for things only known after test shots! Long range accuracy, at best, is a process. The best sniper with the best training still needs actual real time dope to make a reliable shot at that kind of range. If someone says they can set up, spot the wind, adjust the dope perfectly before the first shot, and hit from a cold bore within 1 MOA of a 1000 yard target with better than 30% odds, I call BS. And until someone can, a gut shot elk with a 357 mag is just as likely as one dropped right there.
Does anyone think a gut shot elk with a 357, without reliable means of immediately tracking it (because you're probably over an hour away), is ethical?
The only way I could see an ethical shot over 1000 yards is with a very powerful cartridge and true adjustments made by a series of shots on a dummy target, before the shot on the game is attempted. This is what the folks in the video did, but after attempting a shot on the elk.
Last edited by akmtnrunner; 03/02/16.
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Campfire Tracker
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Not that I'm promoting shooting elk at 1376 yards, but your calcs of comparing a .338LM to a .357 magnum pistol are slightly off. My .338LM pushes a 300gr bullet at 2840 fps. It still has 2000 foot pounds of energy at 1000 yards.......
Luck....is the residue of design...
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Posts: 46,273 Likes: 14
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,273 Likes: 14 |
Not that I'm promoting shooting elk at 1376 yards....... Me either. Or 1000 yards for that matter. I'm not promoting anything other than a little tolerance for a hunting method that doesn't fit with a lot of people's personal preferences and biases, including mine. Just pointing out the flaws in some of the logic used to denigrate long-range hunting in general.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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That 338 Lapua can kill Charlie at better then 1 mile and Charlie is a smaller target then an Elk.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
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I'll bring up the point of terminal performance of a bullet from that range. No matter how accurate a shot is, there comes a distance that a bullet loses enough energy to ethically perform. So beyond the whole accuracy thing, there's the compounded effect of, or rather lack of effect, of the bullet. Never mind the trouble of combining a high BC design and one designed for terminal performance on game.
Even a 338 Lapua like cartridge will essentially be like a 357 magnum around 1000 yards. Just fine if we can place our shot right in the boiler room, but that boiler room of even a large elk shrinks down to about 1 moa from this ultra long range. I know people can shoot those kind of groups, but that happens after adjusting for things only known after test shots! Long range accuracy, at best, is a process. The best sniper with the best training still needs actual real time dope to make a reliable shot at that kind of range. If someone says they can set up, spot the wind, adjust the dope perfectly before the first shot, and hit from a cold bore within 1 MOA of a 1000 yard target with better than 30% odds, I call BS. And until someone can, a gut shot elk with a 357 mag is just as likely as one dropped right there.
Does anyone think a gut shot elk with a 357, without reliable means of immediately tracking it (because you're probably over an hour away), is ethical?
The only way I could see an ethical shot over 1000 yards is with a very powerful cartridge and true adjustments made by a series of shots on a dummy target, before the shot on the game is attempted. This is what the folks in the video did, but after attempting a shot on the elk. I think if you think that you need to track a gut shot animal right away, you ain't doing it correctly....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ringman, I know it was simply two letters turned around and easy to figure what you meant, but the mental picture I got of you sitting around the campfire and signing Kumbaya was worth a pretty good laugh. He's not very good at building fires, so that's how he stays warm.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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