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Well as I posted in the 3D thread on my second to last shot a screw popped out of the cam on my Heli-m. Went to the dealer today and need a new cam which is covered under warranty by Mathews no problemo.
The dealer tells me it's something that they have had happen before with the Heli-m. I started asking him about new models and brands and he asked if I wanted to shoot a couple? I knew this was a mistake but said"sure thing"
I shot the new Mathews Halon and I knew I was in for trouble,great smooth draw and nice solid back wall.Quiet and no torque on the shot.
I shot an Elite Synergy and Impulse and they were good but the Halon just spoke to me.
I also had a new peep put in my Outback and when I got home I shot a few arrows through it to adjust the sight. Still shoots good but wow what a difference. 65% let off and boy if you don't keep steady back pressure she wants to go.
Talked to a friend and he was in the market for a new"old" bow and I told him I'd sell him the Heli-m all set up for $500 and he said sold!
Sooo now I'm going back to the dealer tomorrow to shoot some bows and verify what I know and think I'll be getting a new Mathews Halon 7(maybe 6 but leaning 7)

Where did you go for the work and to shoot the new Mathews? I'm hesitant to even consider a new bow since Phil shut down Indian Mountain and left. The Z7 I bought there that he setup shoots so well and I see nothing but problems from multiple other dealers and their bow setup and tuning.

Traditions Archery in Henrietta,and I had no choice as to the cam and warranty work. We shall see how good of a bow tech the gentleman is,seems knowledgable asked about his procedure for setting up a bow. I'll find out more tomorrow morning
I do miss having Phil around for sure, he knew his stuff and was honest if a bow was a piece of crap he'd tell you straight out

http://www.traditionsarchery.net/

4ager his part to blame for this purchase,he's been egging me to go shoot some new bows, I tried resisting but everything fell into place today so why fight it

EvilTwin will be proud. The Force grows stronger (pulling screws from hundred of miles distance ain't easy, you know).

LOL well it worked

There are no Prime nor Obsession dealers close so they have been eliminated from my list.To me an important issue is service locally. Besides I've been a Mathews guy since my MQ-32

Just heading off the "you should have bought a .... " from the get-go, eh?

Yea kind of... When you're spending as much$$$ on a new bow you better make sure you really like it and get what you want. I try not to preclude any bow but like I said I need a dealer a reputable dealer in my general vicinity for service.The closet Obsession dealer is almost to Buffalo and it's a meat market/ bow shop. I called and spoke to the owner and he has 2 of last years models in stock and nothing else, if I can't shoot one I sure as heck ain't buying one.

Yep.

The Halon is a damned nice bow. Hell, even Bear is making some ridiculously nice bows these days, as is PSE, Prime, Elite, Mathews, Hoyt, Obsession, Parker, High Country, etc. It's pretty hard to find a BAD bow out there right now; truly a golden era and only getting better.

Well I hope it doesn't get better too fast....I've actually had the Helim for 4 seasons,I usually don't up grade until after 5 seasons and as long as 7
But the timing seems right I I can notice enough difference from the Helium to the Halon to warrant it

Actually this has been my bow purchasing scenario

MQ32.....1998

Outback.....2004

Heli-m.....2012

I'm way ahead of schedule for a new bow thanks 4ager

I think I was/am due. Martin Bobcat in 1988, then shifted to trad with a Bear Super Kodiak in 1991. Added a Bear Kodiak Magnum in 1996. Picked up an old Hoyt compound (early 90s vintage) about 10 years ago. In fact, I don't think I have/had ever bought a new bow until ... now.

You are due for 2 then!

Oh, I think one will be plenty for now, thank you.

When crossbows were made OK here I got one and it's fun.

They are quiet and I shoot it in the basement.

It looks cool like a rifle! They have a scope and a trigger!



$189.99
Buy here!

DumbassDon,

No one cares about your cheap Chinese junk, nor what you DON'T hunt with.

Go stay in your basement and see if you can't figure out how to suck start that crossbow (which isn't even the same one in your link, you stupid SOB).

Nice rifle lmao

OK it's done
Mathews Halon 7 (lost camo XD)70lbs 28"draw(they are coming in 1/4" long),QAD Ultra rest Pro HDX,Mathews HD 4 arrow arrow web quiver,HHA Optimizer OL single pin adjustable sight. G5 Meta 1/4" peep(stabilizer to come after)
Pick it Monday 14th after I get back from the TX hog hunt

http://www.mathewsinc.com/bow-builder/halon-7

How do you REALLY feel about Savage99??? ...don't hold back now.

He was on my ignore list for a while, but I was missing so much entertainment... he is back now.

You have done well Grasshopper

Those Halon's are nice. We've probably sold 40 or so since January 1st. Guys come in, pull everything from the rack, shoot a few through each, then buy the Halon!

I notice a difference in the draw cycle between the Halon 6 and 7. The 7 feels smoother to me.

I'm shooting a Hoyt Defiant right now, but have a Halon X arriving any day now. I may end up with a Halon 7 too before the dust settles.

Congrats on your new bow!

Didn't know you sold bows also. Will have to look a little closer.

Man i wish you could have gotten your hands on an Obsession to try. I just swapped over to a K34. OMG this thing is sweet. Absolute best draw cycle I have ever felt. And ive shot a lot of different bows. This thing is flat amazing. At 34ATA and 7" bh even Elites Impulse 34 cant match its speed. The Def Con 6 and M6/M7 blow the Halon away. Better draw cycle, better back wall. More speed. Whisper quiet. Better warranty. Whats not to love? I have tuned a few Halons this yr. And they are nice. Best thing Mathews has put out since the SBXT.

Funny, dvdegeorge and I were talking the other day about whether this would be your response. We both agreed and almost verbatim.

For the record, I did try an Obsession before buying my new one. Very nice bow, but I just preferred something else (Prime).

I would have loved to try out an Obsession but again I'm not buying something without trying it and without having a dealer local.I can't fathom liking anything better as I was pretty blown away by the Halon,I had no intentions of buying a new bow I was very happy with the Heli-m

Archery was a big goal of mine when I took over.

Local guy was a huge dealer and was tired of working seven twelves. We bought him out and moved him in. He's working for us full time, but still has lots of time off. He and I discussed the move for about 6 months. We made sure we had all his lines locked up before the deal was finalized.

You probably won't see much online from us regarding archery. Good pro shops are a hands on thing. We may start listing used bows though....

Sorry for the interruption, just wanted to clarify.

No interruption good stuff!And 10/4 on the hands on thing

Really good info for later on! Thanks!

IMHO it's best to learn how to setup/tune your own gear.
Not difficult.

BTW, anybody shot the G5 Rival?

Thanks I'll pass I have enough stuff to deal with between hunting,shooting, reloading, fishing which includes boat and gear maintenance

Hopefully one day you can. When you get ready to have that Halon restrung and tuned, let me know. Ill fix it up right

The eagle has landed just picked up the Halon 7






Group at 25 yds



100 gr SlickTrick Broadhead 25 yds

That'll do, Donkey. That'all do...

Just ran some arrows over the chronograph 71 lb @ 28" draw length approx. 400gr arrow set up getting 283 fps seems about right for the Halon 7 and a 28" draw

That won't bounce off much.

Looks nice I think I'm going to shoot one of these along with an Elite Impulse 31

Your in the same shop area as Dan, right?

The I31 (and the I34, if you can) are really nice bows, as is the Halon.

Scott, Tom at Traditions Archery seems to know his stuff,he got me set up and tuned and I came home and shot a broadhead right to the same point of impact as the field points
He has the Elite's and Mathews in his shop so you can test them

Awesome I will have to go out there and do some shooting.

Very Nice... sure wishing I could use a bow. I tore my right bicep tendons of off the bone last August. While I do have almost full use back now, I'll probably never be able to draw a heavy pull bow again.

You don't need a heavy pull bow. A modern compound at 50#, or even 40#, will give you everything that a bow of 20 years ago at 60-70# gave you.

Did a little more tinkering today and broadhead tuning
here's a 25 yd group with 2 field points and a 100 gr Slick Trick

Well....I followed your lead. I brought home a Halon 7 today.

I'd been tinkering with a Halon X or two the past couple of weeks in the shop. I'd been waiting on the X's before I made my decision. I kinda hoped it would grow on me, but it didn't!

Im pretty happy with the decision.

I'm quite happy with mine! Congrats

OH REALLY???? When did Newton's Third Law change?

Have there been improvements in limb materials and cam designs in the last 20 years? Certainly, but none that would come anywhere near making your statement accurate. Has there been changes in arrow components during that time? Yes. But the IBO formula of 30/70/350 has not changed and it doesn't matter if the arrow is aluminum or carbon, it still weighs the same 350 grains and the bow still has to move that much weight when drawn to 30 inches and set at 70 pounds pull.

Do we have drop away arrow rest now that help increase arrow speed? Yes we do. Do we have new limb and cam designs? Yes we do. But do those add up to allowing a 40 pound pull bow today equal a 70 pound bow 20 years ago?? No flipping way. Not even close.

And if you want to get all the speed that these new bows offer today, you are going to have to draw it back to 30 inches, shoot an IBO arrow weight, and set it at 70 pounds. You can't draw it to 28 inches, set it on 60 pounds and shoot an IBO arrow at anywhere near the top speeds and you sure as hell can't get anywhere near that set on 40 or 50 pounds.

No repeal of physics necessary, Bob; only a chronograph and actual shooting of bows is required. Since you're going to follow me around, you might as well learn something.

I've a couple compounds that, in their day, were pretty danged fast (20 years ago). Set at 80#, a 500 grain hunting arrow gets shot just as fast as the Prime I'm shooting now set at 60# (that's the bottom end of a 60-70# Prime, for reference as well).

The wife of the local pro shop shoots an Obsession (he's an Obsession dealer) set at 53#. It shoots a 450 grain hunting arrow for her just as fast as either of the older bows I have set at 70#. In fact, given how much draw length she is giving up, if that were equalized, her bow would actually be faster.

Those situations aren't unique today; in fact, they are very common.

BTW - I did NOT say a 40# bow of today equals a 70# of twenty years ago. I said a modern compound of 50#, or even 40#, would give you what a 60-70# bow twenty years ago could. 40# bows today can, and often do, shoot heavy hunting arrows (400+ grains) at speeds equivalent to what a 60# bow twenty years ago was delivering with the same weight arrows; and 50#s now can do what 70# did then as well.

IBO speeds from the mid-1990s (20 years ago) were, at best, 300 fps. In fact, a lot of bows were still being rated AMO (60#, 30", 540 grain arrow), and those speeds were in the 220 fps range. The reason for overdraws back then was to drop the arrow weight without reducing the spine to achieve higher speeds. I know; I was hunting and shooting bows back then (and before then).

Today, 340 IBO is pretty easy to achieve. Go see for yourself how fast a mid-1990s 70# compound shoots a 500 grain arrow, and then shoot a 500 grain arrow out of a current compound at 50#. You're going to have speeds in the 230s. Shoot a 400 grain arrow out of the same bows, and you're in the 260s.

The arrow, nor the chronograph, care what poundage you're pulling, only the speed at which the arrow is launched. No changing any laws of physics, just tracking efficiency.

Well now that is a reasonable response, so let's bury the hatchet here and discuss this because you seem to be a lot more up to date on this stuff than I am, so as you suggest, I may be able to learn something from you other than how to call people names. The navy taught me all about cussing and calling names.

Back in 1986 (30 years ago) I was using an early Oneida bow running at 70 pounds and an over draw and going to bow jamborees all over the south and winning the speed contest that they all had. I was averaging 305 FPS even back then.
But I was not able to translate that arrow speed into arrow lethality until I gave up on the kinetic energy/arrow speed stuff and started shooting heavier arrows with better broad heads at slower speeds.

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another. That being the law, a bow capable of storing 50 pounds of energy in its limbs 20 or 30 years ago is no better or worse than a bow capable of storing 50 pounds of energy in its limbs today because 50 pounds of energy is 50 pounds of energy and it does not change. 50 pounds of energy 30 years ago could accelerate an arrow of the same weight, head, fletch, nock, etc. to the same velocity as a 50 pound bow can accelerate that same arrow today and that will always be the case unless the Law of the Conservation of Energy changes.

These kinds of discussions usually get started because of the Madison Avenue hype about arrow speed being an "improvement" in archery gear. I was once one of those guys who bought new bows every year for another 5 FPS of arrow speed. I changed my arrow rest if I thought it would give me one more FPS. And new bows are always a temptation for those of us who try to be the best we can with our archery shooting and hunting. I looked forward to going to the local pro shop every year when the new bows came in and trying them out on the indoor range and shooting them across the chronograph and just talking about the upcoming bow season with all the other bow hunters and all of that. That's all great and it's a big part of the enjoyment of the sport.

But it's still Madison Avenue hype and increased arrow speed isn't the measure of "improvement" in archery gear. Bow weight, quietness, durability, and those kinds of things have certainly improved over the years and arrow speeds have no doubt increased. But at what point do you need increased arrow speed? How much is enough? Once you achieve arrow pass through, why go any further?

That question then leads to a discussion of speed vs momentum and that opens up another can of worms and it really gets some people all po'd because they want to believe that they have the latest hot rod bow with the fastest arrow speed and now they are better able to kill than they were before. No doubt a faster arrow speed yields a flatter trajectory which can increase the range you can shoot and hit targets. But does it translate to better arrow penetration and better killing ability at those increased ranges? I simply question that it does.

But then, I am a Luddite who goes with the heavier arrow momentum school, so I am probably an outcast around here.
So if we can have this discussion without you going off and calling names, and every sailor I ever met was a lot better at that than you are, I need to know about these new mechanical broad heads since I have never used any of them. But that's a subject for another thread.

You are aware of how some of the the magnum rifle guys are making claims of being able to hit elk at 700 to 1000 yards, and no doubt some of them probably can. But can their bullet then have enough energy on it to kill the elk? How many elk run off and die without ever being recovered doing that kind of thing? I shoot a .338 Win. Mag, but my absolute outside range for shooting elk is 300 yards and I really don't like to shoot even that far.

I am the same conservative hunter with my archery hunting. I don't critize bow hunters with the latest gear and fast arrow speeds. We need them to support the archery manufacturing industry. But I am begining to wonder how long it will be before bow hunters, who are usually conservative by their nature, are going to start doing what the magnum rifle shooters are doing. I would hate to see that happen.

I'm no bow expert but I can tell you this, 4ager is dead right. You're hung up on the draw weight when there are a lot of other things going on with the bow's design that affect arrow speed.

Don't believe it? Explain to me why my brand new Elite Impulse draws the exact same weight as my twelve year old Hoyt Xtec, but the Impulse will bury the same arrow past the fletching into a target that the Xtec will only sink it half way. Again, both bows are set to 70 lbs at 28" DL. Both shooting the exact same set of arrows. My brother's old Bear can't even come close to either of them.

Edited to add: Actually, I just remembered something. When I had my Hoyt restrung, I had it set to a measured 69 lbs of draw weight. The Impulse was set to 67 at the same time. Both measured on the same weight scale and draw board.

So how is it that the impulse is launching those same arrows faster than the older bow which is actually drawing more weight? Clearly draw weight is only one aspect of the calculation. . .

I don't know dryfly. That is what I asked 4ager. I only know and understand what the Laws of Physics say.

Let me ask you where that extra energy came from in your new bow?? If both your old and your new bows store the same amount of energy, they are only capable of delivering that amount of energy because energy cannot be created or destroyed if the law of the Conservation of Energy is correct. Since it has been correct for a long time now, I am inclined to believe that it still is and that is the reason for my question.

I am attempting to learn something here. I am NOT TRYING to start a disagreement so let's have a civil discussion and maybe we can all learn something.

You guys are all waaaay ahead of me as I have said, my stuff is old. So you guys could save me a lot of time, effort and money explaining how all the new stuff works. I have no clue, so I'm depending on you boys for help. Somewhere down stairs in the back of my relaoding note book I think I still have some velocity test that I did maybe 10 or 12 years ago. I'll go see if I can find them.

Limbs, rests, arrows, materials, sights, broadheads, holding weights,,

All have been improvements, comparing my orignal Hoyt Defiant to a current Matthews is eye-opening.

That Defiant, a trend setter at the time, put the Arch, into Archery.

Modern Archery equipment has come a long way.

No question about that Ken. All I am asking is how it has done that because the energy required to move the same arrow in different bows of the same draw weight has nothing to do with limbs, rests, arrows, materials, sights, broadheads, ect. It simply has to do with energy.

You may have mistaken me for an engineer,

Different limb materials, which create the kinetic energy, have different coefficients?

The strings have less stretch?

Don't know, and don't care what algebraic formula derives the product number,

I cant explain how a toaster works either, but I know I'm eating toast.





I actually do know how a toaster works, it just sounded so appropriate. grin.

Yeah Ken. I agree, but I do like to know about how some of this stuff works. I was just looking in one of my old bow books and came across this which makes a lot of sense to me: "The shape of the cam determines how the draw feels and also determines how much energy the bow stores. Bow engineers tweak the shape to make the do what they want it to. They can make it faster by causing the draw force to come up quickly as soon as you start pulling on the string remain high before dropping off into the letoff valley. That bow will store a lot of energy and has the potential to be faster than a bow that comes up to maximum draw weight more smoothly and slowly."

That is why I shoot Oneida's. They draw hard right from the start and only let off right at the end of the draw. So I can see why they might would shoot an arrow faster. So the new cam designs have taken this science way out there and it has resulted in faster speeds. That plus all of the other things that have improved as you noted. This is dang interesting stuff.

But I'm still trying to work through the Law of the Conseveration of Energy. My old school brain just won't let that go. But I'll try to catch up with you guys because I see a lot of younger guys out there doing some dang impressive shooting with this new equipment. They may not know why it works, but they sure know how to use it.

Bob,

Looking forward to a discussion, and not an argument. More than fine on my end.

First of all, I agree with you on momentum and penetration being highly important in bowhunting. Back in the "bad ol' days" (1980s and early 90s) when everyone was chasing the last possible fps, those 4-5" overdraws and soda straw arrows were "fast" (for then) but they sucked on game. The trajectory got flattened, no doubt, but at the expense of momentum and thus penetration.

Fortunately, that's changed. For me, hunting arrows need to be at least 400 grains and preferably heavier. I call it my "one ounce rule"; the hunting arrow needs to weigh about an ounce, maybe a bit more, before I'm comfortable trying to take game with it. 400 is also about the maximum distance I'm comfortable taking a shot with my long-range guns at unwounded game as well, but that's another discussion and seems to be another area where we agree. For comparison purposes, let's make it easy and set the standard arrow weight at 450 grains for later (much easier than 437.5 ).

I also agree with you that a lot of the every year "newest/fastest/bestest" is marketing hype. There's no disagreement there. However, when you're talking differences over decades, it's not hype any longer. It's not that the older stuff doesn't work any more, it's that the stuff that much newer is so much more efficient.

That word, "efficient", is the key to the entire thing.

You're looking at the energy and speed issue as a 1:1 with no other factors. As with anything else in life, that's just not the case. Humans can't design machines that are perfectly efficient, and thus the losses in efficiency are where the "gains" in performance are made.

Now, I'll also say that I am NOT an engineer. However, I do know I can point back to certain changes that were big sea changes in the performance cycles of bows. One of the first was the use of FastFlite type strings/cables. The old steel cables and B50 strings were durable (and still are), but they are considerably more inefficient than the stings/cables of today. They were heavier, and that mass requires energy stored in the limbs to move it and thus robs it from moving the arrow, and they stretched more which robbed even more energy from being transferred.

A second was the change to the parallel and beyond parallel limb systems. The older bows, like what we saw in the 80s and early to mid 90s, had essentially the same profile design as recurves or long bows (some still had the recurve limbs; Golden Eagles and Hoyts were famous for this). When the design engineers started playing with the parallel limb designs, the efficiency increased. That, coupled with the weight-forward riser designs gave them the advantage of using longer limbs in the parallel design and reducing brace height (again increasing efficiency).

Add in the changes in limb materials and you get further increases in efficiency. Ditto that with the changes in cams. All that stuff adds up. In the mid-1980s, the AMO (60#, 30", 540 grain) speeds of bows were generally right at 210, with 220s being an absolute screamer (Darton was generally trying to push this envelope, along with PSE; often with a bit more than a grain of salt needed; the Hoyt "Rambo" was an honest 225 and that was one of the fastest of that era). The Martins and Bears I was shooting back then ran about 210 or so. Changing those speeds (210 fps) over to IBO (70#/30"/350) for comparison, you'd be looking at something like 290 fps. For comparison, and assuming that you were shooting a 350 grain arrow at 70# and a 30" draw on your Oneida for what would now be an IBO of 305, you had a bow that had an AMO rating of around 225 or so, which would have been about right for the Oneidas then.

The mid-1990s had AMO speeds at 220 and IBOs at 300 or a touch faster, and that wasn't uncommon at all as Bear and Golden Eagle and many others were honestly right in that range. That's not a huge difference, but that's largely before the new strings and parallel limb designs took over and before the dramatic changes in cams. Even still, if you took a 450 grain arrow and shot it from a 30", 70# 1980s bow with an AMO of 210 and an IBO of 290, and had that bow set up for hunting (string silencers, peep, etc.), you're going have it somewhere in the 240s; call it 245 fps. A 30", 70# 1990s bow set up the same but with an AMO of 220 and an IBO of 300 is going to give you that extra 10 fps (255 fps). 10 fps doesn't sound like much, but it's the difference between 60 ft.lbs and 0.49 lb/ft of momentum and 65-66 ft.lbs and 0.51 lb.ft. That's a pretty big difference on the receiving end with a roughly 10% increase in KE and a 5% increase in momentum. There was (and still is) a TON of game taken with bows set up just like that, so let's put the "1996 standard" at 65 ft.lbs, and .51 lbs/ft with a 450 grain arrow fired at 255 fps for comparison. Draw weight is irrelevant, but the delivered KE, momentum, and arrow weight, at shot velocity are not.

Now, you jump up to today's bows... IBO speeds are easily and honestly in the 340 fps range with more than a few beating that by a chunk. Take a 30", 70# bow with an IBO of 340, and you're going to fire that same 450 grain arrow at 300 fps pretty easily. Obviously, that's a huge difference in KE and momentum (90 ft.lbs and 0.6 lbs/ft, actually).

Just HOW LIGHT of a draw weight today is going to give you the same 255 fps with the 450 grain arrow to deliver the same KE and momentum that we "needed/had" in "1996", if the IBO rating of the bow is 340 fps? Honestly, it's not going to take more than 50#, maybe a touch less. Yes, really - 50#.

I'm shooting a 450 grain arrow right now from a bow with an IBO speed of 340, but at 29" draw length and 60#, and it's clocking 276 fps with 15 extra grains of weight on the string. That's a solid 20 fps advantage at 9# less draw weight an 1" less draw length than the "1996" bow. I also know that it's a very valid comparison because one of the old bows I'm shooting is from 1996 and it was a pretty high end, fast, bow for it's day. If I swapped out the limbs on this Prime for a set of 50-60# limbs and backed it down to target that 255 fps with a 450 grain arrow, I'd reach the lowest draw weight to do it, and maybe still be a touch faster.

340 IBO isn't even a screamer today. The bow that my local pro shop guy's wife is shooting has an IBO better than 350, and PSE (at least) makes a bow or two that go better than 360 fps IBO. You can drop way down in draw weight to get the same 450 grain, 255 fps, 65 ft.lbs, .51 lbs/ft performance that 70# of draw weight required 20 years ago. All of those newer bows do that more easily, and MUCH more quietly, because of the increases in efficiency over what we used to have.

One way you can very easily observe the changes in efficiency is just by listening. Take a bow from 20 years ago, take all the silencers and stuff off of it, and shoot it next to a "bare" bow of today (no silencers installed). The sound difference is dramatic. That noise you hear from the older bow is energy loss; energy stored by the limbs and released at the shot that does not get transferred to the arrow. That's speed that would otherwise have been there that just isn't because of the inefficiency of the design. The new bows are just better.

I talked to my friend Dan (dvdegeorge) here about this some months ago when I picked up the Prime I'm shooting now. I had been shooting that for about a week and had it dialed in pretty well. I got one of my older bows out and shot it during the same session. Now, the two bows are shooting almost identical arrow set-ups (less than 20 grains of weight difference). At the first shot with the old bow, the sound at the shot was so loud I pulled it down fast and looked it over because I thought something had broken. It was that much louder that it literally startled me. Dan laughed pretty good at that one because it took him some cajoling on his part to get me to try a new bow (I was in the "ain't broke, don't fix it; new stuff CAN'T be that much better" camp).

My neighbor was on his deck one afternoon when I was shooting in my yard. We got to talking afterward and he asked how I liked my new bow. He doesn't shoot and doesn't hunt and probably has never drawn a bow in his life, so the question surprised me. I asked him how he knew I got a new bow and he said he could here it when I practiced; "until a couple weeks ago, every time you shot, I could here the bow and then the arrow hit the target. Now, I just hear the arrow hit, so I figured you had to have gotten a new bow."

As for Oneidas; damn, they were fun and cool. They were, in their day, pretty quick (among the fastest). I think the fastest one that they ever produced was, logically, one of their last - the Stealth, or something like that. It was, IIRC, somewhere in the 320 IBO range and that's probably been 10-15 years ago at this point. One of my good friends from college is still shooting the Oneida he got back in the mid-1980s; same vintage as yours and shoots about where yours would have or did as far as speeds. Great bows; smooth (even today), but not very quiet or fast by today's standards. Still damned cool, though.

Now, WHY consider shooting a lighter draw weight bow today when obviously if you can shoot a 70# draw weight and get even MORE performance? Well, for me, it's several reasons. The game hasn't gotten arrow-proof over the years. In fact, with better broadheads (FIXED blades, thank you; still don't like mechanicals), they are less arrow-proof than they were. The ranges that I can honestly, ethically shoot game haven't really changed that much; 40 yards is about it and in most of the places I bowhunt 40 yards is a pretty long shot, so the extra fps isn't going to get me much more than a flatter trajectory and the arrow stuck further into the dirt or a tree on the offside.

Another big reason is wear-and-tear on the shoulders and elbows. Yes, I used to shoot heavy weight bows (considerably more than 70#), and yes, I still have bows that will go WAY higher than that. That stuff just hurts over time. A 60# bow puts less strain on my shoulders and elbow than does a 70# bow; 50# even less than that, etc. If I can draw it more easily, hold it more easily, and have it stress and strain my joints less, and STILL get equal or better performance than I got years back at a level that I KNOW kills stuff well, why wouldn't/shouldn't I?

A bow is essentially a spring.

On occasion, I've had to help customers when they wanted to launch an object at x feet per second with a spring. The design of the spring significantly influences how fast it releases energy. The release speed is basically proportional to stress, for a given metal, but it also varies by type of metal. For example, titanium springs release energy faster than steel springs, because they store more energy per pound.

In a bow you've got various composite materials that flex, combined with a sophisticated mechanism (the pulleys and string) that magnify the release velocity.

Archery is very competitive, so manufacturers are constantly trying to refine their designs, not just for marketing hype, but also to gain speed & accuracy. I would guess that "smoothness" and the "back wall" also influence shootability, which is somewhat subjective.

Well JUST DAM Sean!! That was a LOT of good information and I thank you for it. I think we have more in common than we have differences here and since I am trying to catch up, you guys who know about this stuff can be a big help.

Recently I went to the camp and was sitting on the front porch thinking That I used to have a lot more fun there than I have had in the past few years. The more I thought about that, I realized that I have become trapped by old habits and familiarity. There is no more mystery about where I hunt because I've had the camp for many years and I know every square inch of those 1160 acres. I go to the established stands and hunt, or I stalk through familiar woods hunting. Then I started remembering when I last had excitement in my hunting because I want it back.

Because bow season is always the first to open here, I and most other hunters always look forward to it all year. And no real bow hunter can pass up the day all the bow company reps come to the local pro shop and show the new stuff. Man I could hardly sleep the night before. Those were exciting and interesting times, so I decided to check out some of the new gear and was blown away by the improvements that have been made since I kept up with it. But since I did not know much about all of the new stuff, I thought you boys could help me because I am going to be lost going to a pro shop. Heck, I don't recognize some of the names even . But I have seen guys come to camp with Matthews single cam bows and those bows have been quiet, fast, easy to shoot and keep in tune. Keeping an Oneida in tune is always an issue and I don't want to have to mess with it.

I draw 28 inches when I use a release and string loop. I don't like giving up draw length, but the advantages of a release out weigh the draw length loss for me anyway. I bow hunt at very close range because I have stands on game trails or on food plots. And since I own the camp and land and only use it for hunting, there are few surprises. So I can probably use one of the new bow's and shoot 50 to 55 pounds draw weight and do as well with it as my Oneida that I shoot at 70 pounds getting ready for season, and then back it off to 60 pounds for hunting season. That is because when I keep it set ay 70 pounds and get out there on my stand before daylight and stand there for a couple of hours when it is still cool, I get stiff and have trouble breaking that dern Oneida over at 70 pounds. It's no problem when I am out there all warmed up shooting on the range, but it's a different story just after daylight when I've been on stand not moving for a couple of hours. Then my old bones get cranky and stiff.

So where would you guys recommend that I start given my draw length, shoot with a release, and want to shoot 50 to 55 pounds? Oh, and I think I want a single cam bow.

Bob,

Thanks! I suspect you're right in that we're likely a lot more alike than different (truth be known, that's likely the case for most on this board).

Sounds like you've got "the spot" worked out to hunt, and that counts for a LOT.

As for recommendations, I'm going to give you the same recommendation I got from Dan and others - go to a good pro shop and shoot as many different brands as you can. Don't get caught up on or fixated on a name or even a single cam system vs others; just shoot stuff and see what speaks to you. You'll find one that works best for you, and that's what counts. There are a bunch of great makers out there now; Mathews, Obsession, Prime, Elite, Hoyt, G5, Mission, Parker... Hell, even Bear makes a damned great bow. It's pretty hard to go wrong, at all, and whatever fits/feels best to you will be "right".

So, you're hunting the Oneida at 60#? What draw length (28?), arrow weight and what speed? The reason I ask that is it's clear you don't want to lose the performance you're used to so if you can provide the speed and the arrow weight, we can back into an IBO range and narrow down the choices (perhaps just a little). If you're hunting that Oneida at 60#, 28" then it's going to be fairly easy to get the same performance at a much lighter draw weight; figuring out where is the next step.

Sounds like good advice and I am going to take it. THANKS!!

As soon as the river goes down, I am going to camp for spring clean up, close up all the deer stands for the year, cover the heaters in them with plastic bags to keep the dirt dobbers from filling them with mud, check the gas level in the tank at each stand and replace those that are low, find any downed trees to cut for fire wood and haul it up to camp to split, clean out the wood stove and the stove pipe, clear out all the roads and trails, check all the bridges because they have been flooded since late january, clean out the camp water system and flush it with bleach, replace the water filters, check the levels in the camp gas tanks, the batteries on the solar pannels, and all of that kind of thing that has to be done. My archery gear is over there at camp because that's just where it has been for about the last 12 to 15 years or so. I have a nephew that has wanted that stuff for several years and I think I'll just give it all to him and then I'll HAVE to get new stuff. Don't you just love it when a plan comes together?

Ain't camp clean up in the spring such fun? Helluva lot better than sitting inside, though.

The plan to give the stuff to the nephew is a great one. He'll love it, and you'll be fresh and clean looking for new gear. That plan never fails.

Just doing a little spiff-balling give what you've been saying earlier, I came up with this.

Let's ASSUME a few things (yeah, yeah, I know...)

Put the IBO of the Oneida of yours at 305 fps at 70#, 30", and 350 grain arrow. Now, up the arrow weight to 420 grains for a hunting arrow (fairly reasonable), put the draw length at 28" for your use of a release, and back the weight down to 60#. Odds are that you're shooting that set up at about 235 fps. Yes, I know that sounds slow, but you're giving up speed with the decrease in poundage, draw length, and the increase in arrow weight (along with putting stuff on the string that makes it huntable). Four hundred and twenty grains at 235 fps ain't no slouch, and it don't bounce off.

That calculates out to 51.5 ft.lbs., and .44 lbs/ft of momentum; PLENTY for deer, and given the age of the bow rather efficient (for that era, especially). I suspect that your hunting set up is pretty danged close to this, and to completely truthful, it's pretty danged close to what I was shooting prior to getting a new bow. I know, for a fact, that this is PLENTY for deer. There's been PILES of venison put in the freezer with performance that looks a lot like this, and there is again every season.

To get or beat 51.5 ft.lbs. and .44 lbs/ft with a 420 grain arrow, you're going to need to equal or beat that 235 fps, right? Looking at a 50# draw weight, figure on needing something with an IBO rating of at least 320 fps, and preferably 325 or better. There's a LOT of really great bows out there that will do 325 fps or better these days. Some that will exceed that threshold by a lot, in fact, but there are plenty that met or exceed that minimum to get your where you want to be in both draw weight and performance to allow you to choose between several different manufacturers and models.

Me, personally, I like Prime; absolutely feel in love with their bows when I shot them. Elite makes really great stuff as well, as does Mathews, and Hoyt, of course, and I'd have been quite happy with any of them. Obsession shooters rave about those bows (just didn't do it for me, though I found them to be very well made and quite nice). All of those bow manufacturers have very "smooth" drawing bows, something you're used to with that Oneida and something I suspect you'll be looking for. Every one of them has several bows that exceed the 325 IBO speed floor you're probably going to be looking at, and easily at that. Don't overlook Bear, either. I did shoot a couple of their new bows and was rather impressed. Again, they draw in a cycle that you're likely going to be looking for and have the speed you want as well. I left Parker out, unfortunately, because I don't think they go below 60#, and their draw cycles aren't as refined. PSE is still making great bows, but they've just never done much for me. YMMV, of course.

I'll give you an example off my bow from just this evening. I recently got some new arrows in and will be tuning up the bow for them. With a 125 grain head, the total arrow weight comes in at 503 grains. They are a high grain-per-inch, low-diameter arrow designed to penetrate like mad (and the do; I bury them to the fletchings on every shot into a Block target).

I cranked the bow up to 69# and then back down to 61# (I don't like really bottoming out the screws, nor taking them all the way out) and draw at 29" using a release. This is a bow that has an IBO rating of 340 fps (70#, 30", 350 grains). With the 503 grain arrows and my bow set up for hunting, I'm getting 270 fps at 69# and 256 fps at 61#. That equates out to 81 ft.lbs. and .60 lbs/ft, and 73 ft.lbs. and .57 lbs/ft, respectively.

Now, to match even the lowest of those numbers with the same arrow, your Oneida (or either of my older bows - and I've chronoed them to know their speeds) would have to be drawing roughly 85#. My shoulder says "OUCH" just thinking about that, how about yours?

I don't really care where in the poundage cycle that bow tunes in those arrows; the performance is WAY MORE than enough for anything I'll ever hunt with a bow. All it really is going to do is just bury my arrows deeper into the ground (or trees) on the offside of whatever I shoot. In fact, I think you can see why after I'm done with these arrows, I may very well put a set of 50-60# limbs on that bow, or maybe even 40-50#ers, and be plenty content shooting deer without straining my shoulder, elbow, or other things that go "pop".

Oh, one other thing - I don't know what you're currently shooting for broadheads, but if you haven't taken a look at the Magnus Black Hornets or Slick Tricks or QAD Exodus, you owe it to yourself to do so. All three of them tune great, fly great, and penetrate like mad. The Magnus also have a lifetime warranty (yep; you break one and they give you a new one).

Actually, that is exactly what my little Chrony says I am shooting and as you say, no problems killing deer at all. Dang man!! You know your schitt and it's great to have that kind of experience to draw from. Thanks a bunch and I will definitely look at what you have recommended.

I was shooting right there as well.

Wait until you shoot some of the new stuff out there. I suspect your reaction is going to be what mine was. "Wow", would be an understatement.

As for "knowing my schit"; there are others here that know FAR more than I do. I'm a relatively quick study and I try to pick up and pass on all I can. This stuff is FUN!

I am looking forward to it and thanks again.

Well I am trying to put some fun back into my hunting and archery was always fun back when I was keeping up with it. As I think back on it, I don't know if it was the compound bow and ever changing and improving archery gear, or the Baker climbing tree stand that just busted the sport of Bow Hunting wide open, but I bow hunted before either of those things hit the commerical market and things were a lot different then because there was not all the neat stuff we have today.

That Baker stand made it possible to hunt places where you just couldn't hunt before it came along because the DNR would fine you if you drove a nail into any tree on state owned land, so you couldn't build stands in the national forrest or on game management areas. I used to use a rope to climb trees back then. You didn't need to do that if you had a Baker. And wow. Tree stands have imprived about as much as the archery gear.

I am a little long in the tooth to use climbing stands anymore, but boy did they ever make bow hunting a lot better when they first came out.

Well, Bakers certainly made hunting more exciting, too. Any of us who ever hunted out of those know how "exciting" coming down a tree (often before we wanted to and faster than we wanted to) could be with a Baker.

Yep, and I have scarred arms and belly to prove it. And none of us even thought about a safety belt back then. It was only after we started learning about people breaking their necks that somebody started making safety belts. It's a dam wonder some us survived all of that because I was in the woods up a tree hunting every chance I had back then.

LOL, I snagged a used Samick Equus/rival (copy of Blackwidow SAG).
Had the first one in the US yrs ago (bought at ATA). It went 6# over spec.

This one I hope runs a little hot too, as it's 20# lighter than my first one (spec).

Could be a fun small game bow.

Also bought my old Tradtech Pinnacle 2 that was riser slimmed. Buddy bought it from another buddy, so i got it back. TT mediums on it, bottoms out at 58#. Decent, smooth.............but with meds is 62". Might dump those and get shorts.

Or not.

Still interested in a BW HS58 48-56# and FF rated. Found one, a little steep IMHO.