Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Living with grizz and wolves.

As Mule Deer wrote earlier, this topic has been hashed over here on the 'Fire many, many times before, and feathers always get ruffled, and no consensus ever seems to be reached. But I guess that's just the nature of the 'Fire.

So I guess I'll weigh in myself and keep the pot stirred. 'Cause, after all, I've seen more than a few bear charges in person myself.

First point I'd like to make is that the study Mule Deer alluded to earlier (the one with the 90% bear spray success rate vs the 78% firearms success rate) was, sadly, a flawed study. (Which I wrote to the editors of the journal it was published in, and which was privately agreed to by one of said editors, even though they didn't publish my letter.) You can't compare use of pepper spray by general tourists and backpackers to the use of firearms by hunters. The two activities are hugely different, in that hunters are being stealthy while trying to get close to game, whereas backpackers and forest service workers are not.

So what %age of times will spray or firearms actually work to defend against a bear attack? Nobody really knows... but if you factor out the hunting behavior by the humans involved, the success rate of firearms in bear defense is probably higher than Herrero et al. reported. (BTW... the latin abbreviation et al. means "and associates", not "et cetera... just one of my personal bête noirs) At the same time, I believe the 90% figure for pepper spray was probably a tad high, but close enough for government work.

That being said, I'll make my second point: most people who carry heavy caliber handguns in the bush suck at using them. And I do mean SUCK, an opinion which I base on years of handgun instructor experience. I've been teaching revolver classes since the 90's, and in those classes I start off by having everybody do a time draw-and-fire from the holster with their chosen carry handgun. Most guys who consider themselves experienced with their defensive revolvers have draw-and-fire times (you have to hit the target at 7 yards, BTW) of 3 to 5 seconds, and I've seen many who had a hard time breaking 8 seconds. And these are guys who consider themselves good with their handgun.

That's with a DA revolver, BTW. Guys with SA guns have a hard time getting it done under 5-7 seconds. With training, most people can get their DA draw under 3 seconds, but few will get to a "competitive" speed of 1.0-1.2 seconds. I've never seen anybody with a real SA .44 or bigger caliber draw and fire much under 3 seconds, even with a lot of practice. We're not talking dedicated fast-draw or competition "cowboy" pistolas here, boys. I'm talking about serious hoglegs: Ruger BH, Freedom Arms 97's, etc. You know, the kind of guns you'd use for real bear defense.

I generally advise anyone who decides to carry a handgun in the bush and is serious about it to actually train with the firearm in question. Which means firing lots of rounds FROM THE HOLSTER, using a timer and a scorable target to keep yourself honest. Cheat if you want, but the only person you're cheating is yourself. How many rounds is "lots"? I dunno. I've been shooting 10,000 to 20,000 rounds of DA revolver ammo per year in training competition since the late 90's. That's probably too much for most folks. But a couple hundred rounds a week for a few weeks prior to a wilderness trip isn't too much. And training with lower-recoil ammo than the stuff you're going to carry is smart, as long as you finish off each session with the real stuff. Just my humble.

I think carrying firearms in bear country is smart. I do it myself whenever it's legal. And I also carry pepper spray, and I've trained to use it, too. I've also taken a bear-defense class and shot slug guns and rifles at charging bear targets. It's interesting and worthwhile.

But the bottom line is that bears are not as dangerous as many folks believe they are, and encountering them in the wild is one of the greatest experiences most backcountry users can hope for. Knowing bear behavior is the most important part of bear safety. Defensive weaponry comes a distant second place.

Just a thunk to throw in here...some manufacturers of bear spray market the product with a holster....which you don't have to get the spray out of, just flip the safety and let her rip! For those who have seen bear charges....you'll be lucky if you have enough time to do that, let alone draw a handgun, aim and shoot. And as I used to tell my customers, if a bear is charging , don't worry about the wind....the worst thing that could happen is you'll get a face full of spray, but then at least you wont be able to see whats going to happen to you!

Anyway, here is a pic of the no-draw ( or quick draw if you choose...) holster on a fishing pard.....

Please read a book by...... Alaskan pilot and plane dealer. I love his sarcastic comments especially when the park ranger chick says the bear thought he heard a mouse in the tent, that's why her jumped on it and bit the teenage boy. When you go in the hills hunt like your life depends on it. How did the original people survive without bells and bear spray????? They hunted and were aware of their surroundings. The authors name will come to me and I'll post it. He makes a hundred times more sense than these nitwits paid by tax dollars.

The authors name is Thomas Hron. He also makes a dandy alarm system for camping.

I usually think about it as a closer encounter than others think of it. I would hate to be in a poor tree with my rifle on the ground. I would hate to try and cock my 45 Colt single action, manage the safety of a semi auto handgun, or successfully wield my Winchester in 50-110 when my right arm has been disabled. I feel better with a double action that I can put to use by simply pulling the trigger. At least 44 mag for big bears, short barrel for close work.

However, I can certainly understand why folks would rather settle such a dispute at longer range.

And of course, if you're out hunting anyway, carry a rifle or shotgun. My 50-110 loaded with 500 grain hard cast and unspeakable amounts of smokeless powder is pretty capable. Hurts on both ends though.

Bill

Never been charged by a bear, have been by a pissed off pitbull and the mace that hit him dead in the eyes and face didn't even register in his radar. Not a bear I get it, but if a bear really means it I wonder....

Last summer I went fishing in SE AK. Every person except me and the guy I was fishing with that we saw walking on the ground had a short 12 gauge pump shotgun except 1. That guy had a Marlin Lever 45/70. I didn't see bear spray on any of them.

I think I found this link back when I first joined the Campfire. There were some pretty nasty "discussions" on the topic. I can't remember the name of the guy who showed black and blue pictures of himself from his giant revolver recoiling into his face. Pretty funny!

The link still seems pertinent, although without new cartridges, firearms, etc. A .458 Winchester Mag bolt rifle w a 22 inch or so barrel looks good to me as a primary rifle, although a real grizzly hunt might be an excuse to buy that .50 BMG semi-auto every gun safe should hold (I might need a gun bearer).

Bill

Safety in Bear Country: Protective Measures and Bullet Performance at Close Range.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

Speaking to the issue of having a hand disabled when a bear charged, I have a story about just such an event.

I've only killed two Black bears and neither was charging, but years ago when I was hunting with a bear hunting outfitter in Calif., he told me what happened to him.

He had a dude in camp bear hunting up in the Sierra. The dogs had treed a large boar and when the outfitter and the hunter arrived, the bear was high in a bull pine tree with branches out over a steep ravine.

The outfitter told the hunter where to shoot the bear, right through the heart, etc. The hunter, nervous and pumped, using a scoped rifle, fired at the bear and hit him in the foot. The bear came down out of the tree and ran straight into where the outfitter's best strike dog was tied. The bear immediately began to tear up the hound.

The outfitter screamed at the dude to not shoot again as he feared his strike dog would be hit. The outfitter was carrying a S&W 58 .41 Mag. and his partner was carrying a S&W 57 .41 Mag.

The outfitter pulled his .41 Mag. revolver and started down the side of the steep ravine which was deeply covered with slick pine needles. He slipped on the pine needles and rapidly slid directly into the enraged bear and his mauled hound.

He said that the bear who had by then killed his dog, turned his attention to him immediately and was on top of him. The bear was swiping at him, clawing at his arms. He had his left arm covering his face. The bear managed to break the outfitter's right thumb back as he held his revolver. He still hung on to it and began firing point blank into the bear's body.

The outfitter said that the only thing he really remembered about the bear being on top of was his .41 Mag. going "Click, click, click, " as he'd emptied it into the bear which fell dead on him. He said it all happened in just a few seconds.

His partner and the dude got him back to their truck along with their dogs and took him to a hospital for treatment of his injuries. This happened about three years before I was there.

The first night I was there in camp, he was cooking dinner for us in the cook/eating trailer. He had on a tee shirt and I could see on the backs of both his upper arms, huge, ugly, purple scars from where the bear clawed him. It looked like someone had attacked him with a couple of hay hooks.

The subject of "double action" vs. "single action" revolvers came up. He said that if he'd been carrying a single action revolver, he'd have been killed by the bear because his thumb was completely broken back along his wrist and was useless.

Both he, his partner and their dog wrangler were carrying double action revolvers. The outfitter's name was "John Webb." He had been written up in Outdoor Life a couple years before.

Regarding .41 Mag. as opposed to .44 Mag., he and his partner both said that they'd killed many Black bears with both and could not tell any practical difference between the two calibers and their effect on Black bears. Therefore they carried the double action .41 Magnums instead of the .44 Magnums as they said they recoiled less and one could get back on target faster.

That is my "disabled hand" story by someone who experienced it first hand with a very angry Black bear.

(I carry a S&W 57 .41 Magnum when out in bear country. )

L.W.