Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders BP Accuracy

I used to shoot a side lock with iron sights and shot 3"- 4" groups at 100 yards.
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<br>Now I shoot a inline with a 2-7x35 scope and still shoot 3" groups at 100 yards. It was windy the day I shot but I just expected better.
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<br>What kind of groups can be expected from a decent smoke pole. And do you have to really play with bullets and loads to get better accuracy?
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<br>Also, the rifle has been fired only about 50 times total and I've been told the barrel is not broken in yet and that with continued shooting accruacy should improve.
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<br>What do you guys think.

Tinman, My old TC hawken would group at about 2 1/2 inches on it's best day using maxi balls,
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<br>Unfortunately it gave up the ghost and I bought a TC inline ( Black Diamond). I was having a heck of a time getting a group under 10", so I called TC. They reccomended CVA Power belts with 100 gr FFG. Went to the range and tried it. It shot thess groups under 2 inches. This was with iron sights, no scope.
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<br>It will not shoot any of the cast lead bullets that you typically see, Horady, TC , remington etc.
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<br>They said the inlines of today are more acurrately bored and therfore you need to shoot a more consistent , closer toleranced bullet in them

I was shooting a CVA - 1:48 twist with TC Maxi-Balls
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<br>Now I'm shooting a Remington 700ML - 1:24 twist with Hornday XTP 240 grain Magnum sabots.
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<br>I thought by going to an inline with production sabot bullets and a scope, I would get down to the 2" groups you are getting ... or better
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<br>To tell the truth, I fully expected to do better than 2" groups without much trouble .... Maybe I'm expecting too much

I have a T/C Renegade in 50 cal I use ball and patch and shooot maxi's in that I cast. I can get 2 inch or less at 100 with my open sights. I piddled with it some but not a whole heap. I'd sure expect a lot better than what you guys are stating from the inlines. May take some tinkering though.
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<br>Best of luck.

Tinman:
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<br>You will have to try different load combinations to see which your gun likes the best. I have a TC Black Diamond (1:28)that will cloverleaf at 100 yards, but it would not do it out of the box.
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<br>I found that by reducing my powder charge to 90 grains 2F adding a wonder wad over the powder and using a green MMP sabot incasing a 44 caliber lead pistol bullet (310 grain) that I mold gives me excellent results. I can get similar results using a Hornady XTP 300 grain pistol bullet.

Tinman. I suspect mine would do better if I had better vison.

Well after hearing from you guys, it' pretty obvious I have some time at the range in front of me.
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<br>I'm really a greenhorn concerning ballistics - so I started looking a published ballistic tables
<br>I even bought a computer ballistics program and started playing with loads & bullets.
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<br>Again, I'm green so be gentle .... but it seems to me that a 10 or 20 grain difference in powder
<br>doesn't make that much difference in the ballistics.
<br>Even changing from a 240g bullet to a 180g bullet doesn't make that much difference for a given charge
<br>at least out to 100 yards. For that matter the ballistic coefficient doesn't make for a great change either.
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<br>Can I assume that I should take a given bullet and work up a charge in 15 grain or 20 grain increments ?
<br>Take another bullet and do the same until I find a good group and forget about the ballistics?
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<br>How about different sabots ?
<br>Does anybody think changing the sabot for a given load will change the group size ?
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I don't even have a ballistics chart and know little about coefficients. I was told by my mentor some 35 years ago that the only thing I needed to bring with me from the modern gun range to the black powder range was a concern for safety.
<br>That advise has served me well over the years.
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<br>As for working up a load, change only one thing at a time. Start with 1 grain of powder per 1 caliber (50 caliber=50 grains powder) and increase your powder charge by 5 grain increments until you get to the maximum charge for your gun. If you change bullets, sabots, or powder brand start back at the 1 for 1 and increase your charge by 5 grains until you find the most accurate load for your gun. Keep good records of how each load performs. Once you have found the most accurate load for that gun write it down in a log book to be kept in you shooters box.
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wall gives good advice, take one kind of bullet and start from there.
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<br>When developing a load, I swab one wet patch then one dry patch, no more no less, so I can continue loading. Otherwise fouling gets pretty tough.
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<br>As a side note, if you get a patch and ball stuck or a dry patch on your ram rod stuck in the barrel. Add a copious amount of spit or water to loosen it up. Don't worry after you get it out use another patch to clean it.

Tinman,
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<br>Yes, changing the bullet or powder charge will make a difference in group size. I have seen a few shoot 0.75" groups consistently. Changing the load or bullet alters the vibration of the barrel which may make you more accurate while changing the ballistics little.
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<br> When I am working up a load, I'm looking to maximize speed (to minimize drop) and still shoot good groups. Of course I am using only "modern", inline muzzleloaders where the mfg. has stated the max charge for my muzzleloader. I pick the sabot I would like to shoot, start with the max load, and shoot for group (usually 3 shots). (Remember to foul your barrel with a shot before shooting groups) I then reduce the charge weight in 5g or 10g increments and shoot for group again. Usually one or more of these groups will be smaller than the others. If so, shoot a group with that load again. If it consistently groups well, (and you are satisfied with the group size) and you are satisfied with the velocity you are getting, you have a hunting load. If not, try a different bullet that interests you. Some shoot terrible, others usually shoot well.
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<br>Keep in mind that not all powders are created equal. Some are consistent, others produce wild velocity variations (it helps to have a cronograph). Not all sabots are created equal either (I'm referring to the plastic "housing" part of the sabot, not the bullet) Some are designed for "low pressure" loads (less than 100g) and some for "high pressure" (120g - 150g) Choose the proper sabot for the load you are shooting.
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<br>You received good advice above, after each shot wet patch, then dry patch. (I use a small amount of BP solvent on the wet patch)
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<br>Notice I am not trying to recreate the "frontiersman" experience. I have a lot of respect for the guys that do that.......and hunt as our forefathers did. I'm trying to get the fastest, flatest shooting, safe load possible.
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<br>HogWild

Tinman - I'd like to add a little different approach. As qualifier, I'll note that I am getting 1" 100yd groups with my Knight Wolverine (w/scope) - but I had to do some homework to get there.
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<br>Plastic sabots are not created equal. Some will work at higher pressures where others will not. (By "work", I mean "be accurate"). Also, all barrels do not work the same with a given load. Your 1:24 twist probably won't work well with the light 240gr bullet, except at reduced charges.
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<br>Here is what I reccommend...
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<br>Buy different weights of the same bullet/sabot. You could start with the Hornady XTP rounds, since they are relatively inexpensive. I'm assuming yours is a .50 cal, so you could get a couple boxes each of 180gr, 240gr, and 300gr (I don't remember if they go higher).
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<br>Hornady reccommends a maximum load of 90gr Pyrodex, but I would start at least as low as 70gr - especially if you want to try the 777 powder instead.
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<br>Now - bring a 3-ring binder to the range, and lots of targets (the type that clip into a 3-ring binder). Set up your targets at 50yds, even though you have a scope. Once you determine the most accurate loads, you can check your shots at longer distances.
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<br>Swab your bore with wet patches until it is reasonably clean, then run a dry patch, turn the dry patch over and push it down the barrel again. Snap a cap with the patch and rod still down against the breech. does the patch come out singed and black in the middle? If so - good.
<br>Do this before every load (for now, at least).
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<br>Start with 70gr of powder and the 180gr bullet. Fire 3 shots (swabbing between) at the target. Assuming you made three good shots, (no flinches, etc.), take out a new target and replace the one with 3 holes in it. Put the first target in the notebook - label it with the load data and distance. Shoot at least a second target with the same load (for good measure).
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<br>Now bump your charge up 10gr, and shoot the next set of targets. Repeat the process until either you see accuracy getting worse, or you approach the load limit of your gun.
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<br>Now move on to the the 240gr bullet and repeat the process. Then the 300gr.
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<br>I am going to wager that at this point, you will see a trend towards better accuracy with the heavier bullets over about 90gr of powder in your gun - but ya never know...
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<br>If you aren't getting good enough groups yet (and assuming groups got better, at least, with heavier bullets), start looking for even heavier bullets in similar sabots. I've had good luck with Precision Rifle (PR) bullets and those from a company called Buckskinner Bullets.
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<br>Just keep moving your bullet weight up as gradually as you can, while repeating the previous process.
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<br>Pretty soon, you'll get a feel for what your rifle likes. Oh yeah - keep those targets for future reference!
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<br>You can do the same with conicals. They might not be as accurate, but you will probably find something that works pretty good (might even get a surprise).
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<br>Also, once you find the bullet weight your rifle likes, you may want to experiment with different brands. Changing to a sabot of different construction can allow you to use heavier charges, in some cases. You may even want to buy your own sabots and bullets seperately.
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<br>BTW, it can't be overstated that consistant loading technique is important for extreme accuracy. Give your barrel the same number of taps after each powder charge. Start your bullet the same way and seat it with the same pressure every time. Swab the bore so that your last patch looks the same as every other last patch.
<br>Of course, when you're out hunting in the field, all this consistancy will likely go south. But for now, you are looking for a benchmark. The better you get at the range, the better it will be in the field, eh?
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<br>Good luck. Let us know what you find.
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<br>-FreeMe
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Tinman,
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<br>FreeMe offers very good advice. Interesting that FreeMe has had good luck with the Knight Wolverine. The most accurate muzzleloader I've seen is my brother's Wolverine and I have heard of others shooting well. My brother switched to the 209 shotgun primers in his and accuracy went to pot. Switched back to the original primers and, Viola, accuracy returned.
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<br>I have also shot good groups with PR bullets so you might consider them.
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<br>HogWild

Thanks for all the advice from all you guys - I can tell you it's really appreciated.
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<br>I have been cleaning between groups, every 3 shots - going to change to cleaning between each shot
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<br>Also going to change target distance to 50 yards
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<br>May also change my powder, I've been using Pyrodex, I think I would like to change to "Triple 7" for it's reported cleanliness - any reports on consistency ?
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<br>It is interesting that 'Freeme' thinks a 1:24 twist will work better with heavier bullets - I thought it would be just the opposite - but I don't doubt the advise
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<br>And 'Hogwild's' comment about the switch between 209's and standard primers has me thinking too - I can shoot wither with my rifle
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<br>My apologizes to the buckskin shooters, but I'm going for the best performance I can get - where I hunt you can't use a centerfire rifle - so I need to dress up a smokepole as best I can
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<br>Right now I'm pretty busy with work and I try to spend my free time on hunting. But I'm going to download the advise and information, and keep it in my black powder binder for reference. When I get to spend some time at the range I will definitely let you guys know how things worked out.

Tinman - I've been using the 777 powder in fffg, and am very pleased with it so far. I haven't had the cahnce to shoot it over a chronograph, but it does seem to be consistant.
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<br>At any rate, the accuracy is definitely there, and it does clean up real easy.
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<br>-FreeMe

I'm a beginner in black powder, but would like to share what I have learned. I have the Black Diamond XR .50 cal. with Tasco 1X scope.
<br>I started with six different bullets (sabots) in the 240/250 gr. range. Using Pyrodex pellets and 209 primers. Testing at the range with the different bullets with 100, 130 and 150 grams of powder. Found the 150 grams performed best overall.
<br>Narrowed it down to the Barnes 250 gr. sabot and the Swift A-frame 240 gr. sabots. Both grouped 1" at 100 yards, but the Swift A-frame excelled at 200 yards!! Note: I cleaned after each shot because when hunting I would be firing from a clean barrel, it's not like centerfire where you can wait until after the season to clean it. I found an excellent deer load. The Swift A-frame did an excellent job on two does!
<br>I feel lucky that I got a good shooting rifle, it is as accurate as many of my centerfire rifles!
<br>Cary

tinman- BP and it's substitutes are somewhat inefficient, but to get the best
accuracy you need to work up a load in 5 gr. increments and I'd recommend initially doing it at 50 yd's to minimize wind drift problems etc, once you get your basic accuracy loads down you can always refine them at 100 yd's
shoot off a benchrest to eliminate as much shooter error as possible working up loads shooting offhand is pointless, a waste of time, powder and lead.
Shoot 3 to 5 round groups, wipe between shots, document the group size
you'll see the groups expand and contract along the way, by doing it this way
you'll find your rifle has at least 2 optimum loads a lighter target or small game load and a long range target load and bigger game hunting load.
once you've found the magic loads that make your barrel resonate for
the tightest accuracy, you can start playing with the other variables to refine
your loads,(patch thickness, lubes, different brands of caps, seating pressure
different diameter balls, etc) you'll likely be shocked at the accuracy your rifle is capable of. If you don't bother to this you're just pissing in the wind.
each rifle and barrel is a rule unto itself, no 2 rifles are going to behave the same way with a given load, you could buy 3 consecutively numbered rifles of the same model as yours and they are all going to have slightly different
most accurate loads, there are no universal accuracy loads.
fredj

Hogwild, I've got a Wolverine, too, and get good accuracy with it. Shooting 100 grains of Clean Shot and 250 gr. Barnes MZ's. I still shoot no.11's but have pondered the idea of changing over to 209. After your post I think I'll stay right where I am. Cloverleaf groups at 50 yards now, so I'm afraid I'll screw up a good thing by changing to 209.