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I should add that
59gr would be too hot in my gun with the components I listed.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'm a one gun guy. That gun is a WBY MarkV Alaskan in 300wby mag. If I'm hunting Elk I use the WBY factory 180gr Nosler Partitions and if I'm Deer hunting I drop it down to the 150gr Partitions.
No complaints for a the last 20+ years and it's hard to believe it's been that long! Wow- this thread has now returned to Earth, after leaving orbit and circling the moon several times....... No wonder, that phugger is a space cadet. I'd just use one load (180 gr. nosler partition) and call it a day. Why all this switching around. Makes no fu cking sense to me.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There are modelling programs out there that cover the "numbers" for differences in bullet contruction,design and materials, and they also show the susceptible stress & fatigue zones and how they effect the bullet deforming during the penetration
process of your chosen test media/medias. Why don't you post a link to a few. What's that sound....crickets?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Why don't you post a link to a few.
The high capability programs are only available to their purchasers like engineering institutions & manufacturers and their registered staff, teachers & students because it is a very expensive capital investment and legally licensed product. e.g.; Abaqus Just Try asking bullet manufactures to give you access to their purchased / licensed programs they have for modelling their bullet designs and modelling for BC figures , and Im sure you will get a blunt NO. So, one needs to decide if they just want be a backyard hack when it comes to understanding & explaining bullets, or do they want to invest in the required time,effort and avail. technology to better avoid erroneous & vague assumptions and theories.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's some funny stuff starman. You're FOS and you know it. You're one of those guys who likes to throw around technical-sounding terms in hopes that people will be impressed and think you know what you're talking about. The only problem is, you're using the terminology incorrectly and it shows just the opposite: Todays modern bullet fatigue modelling programs also allow you to create a test media with multiple/varied composition. "Bullet fatigue??" "Fatigue," as it applies to metals means damage to and weakening of the internal structure due to cyclic loading. So how many times do you have to fire a bullet into an animal before it gets "fatigued?" Bullets don't fatigue from cyclic loading, they deform plastically, once. Then you want to castigate someone for not using a modeling program that by your own words is only available to a select few because it's an "expensive capital investment." How does that make sense. Finally, you cite an example of a modeling program that has a variety of uses in engineering analysis. It is by no stretch of the imagination a "bullet fatigue modeling program," and calling it that is like calling your PC a "bullet fatigue data processor." So let's see you cite one case study where Abaqus was used to successfully model bullet deformation as the bullet passes through an animal. By "successfully," I mean, producing results that were meaningful and agreed with empirical observations. I won't hold my breath waiting.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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I've driven a 140g 7mm ballistic tip stem to stern through a muley buck. Not bad for a bullet 75% cheaper than a BT.
Range was 200 yards from a 280 remington. 3150fps at the muzzle iirc. Given those parameters, Nosler’s claimed B.C. of .485 for the 7mm 140g BT, an altitude of 7500 feet and a temperature of 59F, the impact velocity would have dropped from 3150fps to about 2846fps at 200 yards. Retained energy, the same energy that destroys flesh and bone and attempts to destroy the bullet as it is lost, falls from about 3084fpe at the muzzle to 2518fpe at 200 yards. Your experience simply shows that a cup-and-core bullet like a BT can penetrate deeply at a moderate impact velocity and energy. Congratulations, but this is not exactly headline news. Experimenters other than myself have shown over and over that higher impact velocities often result in less penetration. In my own tests I’ve driven a 300g and 350g .458” bullets through 12 water jugs with a MV of 1167fps and 1097fps respectively on multiple occasions, a feat I have been unable to duplicate with any bullet at higher velocities. In fact, here are a few of my results, sorted by MV: 7 jugs = 3100fps 180g Barnes .308” MRX (expanded diameter .674”, one petal lost, 93.4% retained weight) 4 jugs = 2800fps 165g Federal .308” Trophy Bonded Tip (expanded diameter .677”, retained weight 92.8%) (Federal factory laod) 4 jugs = 2800fps 165g Sierra .308” GameKing (expanded diameter .718”, 84.2%) (Federal factory load) 6 jugs = 2742fps 225g Nosler .338” AccuBond (expanded diameter .628”, 62.3% retained weight) 4 jugs = 2707fps 225g Hornady .338” SST (expanded diameter .743”, 56.2% retained weight) 3 jugs = 2707fps 225g Hornady .338” SST (expanded diameter = fragments, 43.6% retained weight) 6 jugs = 2189fps 350g North Fork .458” FP (expanded diameter ..800”, 97.4% retained weight) 8 jugs = 2147fps 350g Speer .458” JFN (expanded diameter .665”, 87.6% retained weight) 9 jugs = 1812fps 460g Cast Performance .458” WFNGC (expanded diameter .582”, 76.5% retained weight) 9+ jugs = 1554fps 500g Speer .458” African Grand Slam (exited side of jug #9, not recovered) 6 jugs = 1531fps 300g Speer .429” Gold Dot (expanded diameter .645”, 99.1% retained weight) 8 jugs = 1467fps 240g Speer .429” JSP (expanded diameter .494”, 97.9% retained weight) 4 jugs = 1460fps 125g Hornady .357” XTP (expanded diameter .544”, 90% retained weight) 4 jugs = 1252fps 115g Hornady 9mm XTP (expanded diameter .563”, 84% retained weight) 12+ jugs = 1167fps 300g Oregon Trail .458” LaserCast (exited jug #12, not recovered) 12+ jugs = 1097fps 350g Oregon Trail .458” LaserCast (exited jug #12, not recovered) 6 jugs = 975fps 185g Barnes .458” TAC-XPD (expanded diameter .796”, 100% retained weight) While the only NF bullet tested on water jugs was a .458” 350g, I have fired smaller varieties into elk and deer at close range/high velocity (10 feet and up) and even into steel and they have held together. My 7mm RM launches the 140g North Fork HP at 3214fps and I don’t have any concerns shooting an animal with that load no matter how short the range. I do question how a 140g BT would hold up at similar velocity, which is why the 140g NF HP is my preferred load for the 7mm as well as the .280 Rem. The .30-06s and .300WM get NF SS and Barnes MRX/TTSX for the same reason – no concerns about close range performance.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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I've driven a 140g 7mm ballistic tip stem to stern through a muley buck. Not bad for a bullet 75% cheaper than a BT.
Range was 200 yards from a 280 remington. 3150fps at the muzzle iirc. Given those parameters, Nosler’s claimed B.C. of .485 for the 7mm 140g BT, an altitude of 7500 feet and a temperature of 59F, the impact velocity would have dropped from 3150fps to about 2846fps at 200 yards. Retained energy, the same energy that destroys flesh and bone and attempts to destroy the bullet as it is lost, falls from about 3084fpe at the muzzle to 2518fpe at 200 yards. Your experience simply shows that a cup-and-core bullet like a BT can penetrate deeply at a moderate impact velocity and energy. Congratulations, but this is not exactly headline news. Experimenters other than myself have shown over and over that higher impact velocities often result in less penetration. In my own tests I’ve driven a 300g and 350g .458” bullets through 12 water jugs with a MV of 1167fps and 1097fps respectively on multiple occasions, a feat I have been unable to duplicate with any bullet at higher velocities. In fact, here are a few of my results, sorted by MV: 7 jugs = 3100fps 180g Barnes .308” MRX (expanded diameter .674”, one petal lost, 93.4% retained weight) 4 jugs = 2800fps 165g Federal .308” Trophy Bonded Tip (expanded diameter .677”, retained weight 92.8%) (Federal factory laod) 4 jugs = 2800fps 165g Sierra .308” GameKing (expanded diameter .718”, 84.2%) (Federal factory load) 6 jugs = 2742fps 225g Nosler .338” AccuBond (expanded diameter .628”, 62.3% retained weight) 4 jugs = 2707fps 225g Hornady .338” SST (expanded diameter .743”, 56.2% retained weight) 3 jugs = 2707fps 225g Hornady .338” SST (expanded diameter = fragments, 43.6% retained weight) 6 jugs = 2189fps 350g North Fork .458” FP (expanded diameter ..800”, 97.4% retained weight) 8 jugs = 2147fps 350g Speer .458” JFN (expanded diameter .665”, 87.6% retained weight) 9 jugs = 1812fps 460g Cast Performance .458” WFNGC (expanded diameter .582”, 76.5% retained weight) 9+ jugs = 1554fps 500g Speer .458” African Grand Slam (exited side of jug #9, not recovered) 6 jugs = 1531fps 300g Speer .429” Gold Dot (expanded diameter .645”, 99.1% retained weight) 8 jugs = 1467fps 240g Speer .429” JSP (expanded diameter .494”, 97.9% retained weight) 4 jugs = 1460fps 125g Hornady .357” XTP (expanded diameter .544”, 90% retained weight) 4 jugs = 1252fps 115g Hornady 9mm XTP (expanded diameter .563”, 84% retained weight) 12+ jugs = 1167fps 300g Oregon Trail .458” LaserCast (exited jug #12, not recovered) 12+ jugs = 1097fps 350g Oregon Trail .458” LaserCast (exited jug #12, not recovered) 6 jugs = 975fps 185g Barnes .458” TAC-XPD (expanded diameter .796”, 100% retained weight) While the only NF bullet tested on water jugs was a .458” 350g, I have fired smaller varieties into elk and deer at close range/high velocity (10 feet and up) and even into steel and they have held together. My 7mm RM launches the 140g North Fork HP at 3214fps and I don’t have any concerns shooting an animal with that load no matter how short the range. I do question how a 140g BT would hold up at similar velocity, which is why the 140g NF HP is my preferred load for the 7mm as well as the .280 Rem. The .30-06s and .300WM get NF SS and Barnes MRX/TTSX for the same reason – no concerns about close range performance. If I'm ever hunting steel plates or water jugs I know where to go for info! In all seriousness I have shot an elk with a nosler BT, 180gr 30 cal with a launch velocity between 3300 and 3400 and an impact of less than 100 yards. Worked flawlessly, crunching bone on the entrance, wrecking vitals, killing very swiftly and penetration deeply. Not sure how the same bullet does on water jugs? Or Steel plates.
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I'm a one gun guy. That gun is a WBY MarkV Alaskan in 300wby mag. If I'm hunting Elk I use the WBY factory 180gr Nosler Partitions and if I'm Deer hunting I drop it down to the 150gr Partitions.
No complaints for a the last 20+ years and it's hard to believe it's been that long! Wow- this thread has now returned to Earth, after leaving orbit and circling the moon several times....... No wonder, that phugger is a space cadet. I'd just use one load (180 gr. nosler partition) and call it a day. Why all this switching around. Makes no fu cking sense to me. Didn't your mother teach you anything? Boggles the mind why people feel they need to be rude for no apparent reason. (going back to just reading and not posting since it's an elementary school playground around here anymore)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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300, keep on posting. Like bighorn, I like to hear "down to earth" perspectives along with all the high-falutin theoretical BS that circulates hereabouts....
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So let's see you cite one case study where Abaqus was used to successfully model bullet deformation as the bullet passes through an animal. Wonder what happened to starman?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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He apparently doesn't visit the Campfire very often, but after thinking about his posts I think bullet companies are missing a good marketing scheme.
It could be called the Mathematical Model of Penetration (MMOP) Seal of Approval, with a nifty symbol such as a circle with a slash across a 6-point bull elk, and include a numerical rating for how deeply a bullet is predicted to penetrate when shooting a bull up the wazoo. After all, that's the scenario suggested by many hunters during bullet arguments: "It's the last hour of the last day of an expensive 10-day hunt in Wyoming, and the only mature bull you've seen the entire time is running directly away through the timber. What sort of bullet do you want in the chamber of your rifle?"
The MMOP Seal on a box would prove the bullets inside had been comprehensively computer-modeled before being shot into test media or animals. Hunters would start demanding to "see the seal," and bullet companies could up the price to more than cover the computer-program costs.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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You better copyright that soon, before someone else steals your idea.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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After all, that's the scenario suggested by many hunters during bullet arguments: "It's the last hour of the last day of an expensive 10-day hunt in Wyoming, and the only mature bull you've seen the entire time is running directly away through the timber. What sort of bullet do you want in the chamber of your rifle? Interestingly enough, I had almost that exact scenario last year, except the animal was a ram and the hunt was on day 12. It was the last day though. My bullet was one commonly derided as a "target bullet," a 123 grain Lapua scenar. I used it because it's the most accurate bullet in the rifle I used, and bullet placement is more important than anything else.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Ranger
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smokepole, Interestingly enough, I had almost that exact scenario last year, except the animal was a ram and the hunt was on day 12. It was the last day though.
My bullet was one commonly derided as a "target bullet," a 123 grain Lapua scenar. I used it because it's the most accurate bullet in the rifle I used, and bullet placement is more important than anything else. Then you make the target right below the horns and fire. 
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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... I'd just use one load (180 gr. nosler partition) and call it a day. Why all this switching around. Makes no fu cking sense to me. bsa- For 20+ years I was quite happy using the same rifle and load. Then Speer changed how the Grand Slam bullets were made and I switched to North Fork SS and tried the Barnes XLC. The North Fork worked great and the Barnes were unacceptably inconsistent. Then, as my daughters got out of high school and college (and my pocketbook), I started acquiring more rifles - not because I needed them but because I enjoyed and had the money to do so.. When it came to bullets I stayed with the North Fork, which have yet to disappoint, but also tried the Barnes TSX/MRX/TTSX, Swift Scirocco II and Nosler AccuBond. Because I chose to use 165-168g bullets in my .30-06s, I tried 140g North Fork HP in my 7mm RM, replacing the 160g NF SS I had been using (and will continue to use until my supply is gone). For my .45-70 I developed 17 different loads, from light recoil plinkers to deer/elk loads to shoulder-busting loads I call Rhino Blasters that would stop anything that walks. For my .30-30 I have 19 different bullet, powder and powder charge combinations worked up. Why? Because it was a lot of fun. With the ammo and component shortages of the last 8 years I've worked up multiple loads for every one of my rifles, using different bullets and often different powders as well. Because of those shortages and seasonal production of brass and bullets, my .375 Winchester only has 4 loads developed for it - with bullets from Sierra, Hornady and Vollmer and one with the more available.38-55 brass. When it comes to loads I would use in the field, every rifle I own has at least two. For the more expensive loads there is a cheaper cup-and-core practice load that shoots to approximately the same POI. I've purchased lifetime supplies of brass for most of the cartridges I use and some of the bullets as well. In addition I've stocked up on components so I don't end up in the situation again, as has happened three times now, where I can't shoot one of my firearms due to lack of factory ammo and reloading components. That said, when it comes to choosing a rife to hunt with, I enjoy taking different rifles as much as I enjoy hunting different areas. When I was interested in a new hunting bullet they would get tested on game before I stocked up. These days I'm pretty content with North Fork SS and HP, Barnes TTSX, Nosler AccuBond and Swift Scirocco II for my bolt guns. While I have a generally preferred load for each rifle, sometimes the rifle and load selected for a particular hunt is based more on what I have in the way of loaded ammo or components on the shelf than any other reason.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I think there's too many hunting bullets.  Fortunately many of them are good and others I wouldn't give two cents for if I could have something else. The conversations about them get silly after awhile as people try to create scenarios of crowning achievement or catastrophic failure for one or the other. It gets boring after awhile and is counter productive. Truth is a guy could pick one good one for the 300 Weatherby (since thats the thread topic) and hunt the length and breadth of the continent for anything and never break a sweat...if he can hunt ....and shoot . No mystery. If we're befuddled by it, we need to shoot more BG animals and think about it less. Of course that's harder,a lot more expensive, and generally takes a lot more time than talking about it on the internet. I don't care a hoot about target bullets for BG although it makes for interesting reading,and I guess they make sense for stretching envelopes past 600 yards or so but I don't do that stuff and don't really care much about it all. I do enjoy plinking at distance though....it's fun. But if the elk is 900 yards away I don't need him that badly and am content to watch and figure out how to get closer.. I could also care less that others like and use them.If target bullet manufacturers intended their bullets for hunting it would say so on their web sites. "Accuracy" and bullet placement are of course paramount but if the bullet fails to behave properly after it lands you might have more problems than if you missed completely. After the bullet leaves the barrel you are no longer in control and have been reduced to the status of an active observer but you are responsible for what happens nevertheless.......and the differences in accuracy in the field between your MOA and half MOA bullet are no where near as significant as many make them out to be under 99% of most BG shooting scenarios. I'm not a big believer in"accidental" designs and unintended consequences but that's just me. OTOH I could care less what anyone else wants to do. I've rarely suffered from "bad bullets" because from early on I refused to use anything that i thought sucked.......my hunting life has been pretty free of strife and doubt as a result YMMV.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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"Accuracy" and bullet placement are of course paramount but if the bullet fails to behave properly after it lands you might have more problems than if you missed completely. That's a big "if," and one that none of the premium bullet proponents seem to have a handle on. No hands-on experience in other words, just so much hot air, like most of this thread.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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"Accuracy" and bullet placement are of course paramount but if the bullet fails to behave properly after it lands you might have more problems than if you missed completely. That's a big "if," and one that none of the premium bullet proponents seem to have a handle on. No hands-on experience in other words, just so much hot air, like most of this thread. I'll say....
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A wise man is frequently humbled.
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