Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JB; came across your article on the 45 Colt

To recap.

The data mule deer posted from Hogdon

44 Magnum, 8.275” barrel:
240J 1582 36,200
270J 1439 38,300
300J 1325 38,300
325C 1368 38,100
330C 1350 38,800
355C 1247 37,900
Average pressure 37,933


.45 Colt, 7.5” barrel:
240J 1532 30,000
260J 1374 30,000
300J 1203 29,800
325C 1266 27,400
335C 1240 28,000
360C 1167 29,800
Average pressure 29,167

Compares the 2 cartridges at different pressure levels


Max load from Hogdon reloading web site shows a max load for a 325 grain 44 bullet of


Grains22.0 H-110
Velocity (ft/s)1,368
Pressure38,100 CUP

The 45 colt Ruger only loads or not loaded to this pressure level but the 454 is

Grains26.0 H-110
Velocity (ft/s)1,511
Pressure34,300 CUP

That is 200 FPS more velocity with 3,800 Les CUP pressure it is not meaningless.

The 454 loads were loaded to over all length of 1.760" this overall length and case capacity can be equal led in 45 colt brass

The data posted by mule deer shows the pressure level an average of 8,766 psi lower in the 45. The dat that I posted also from Hogdon shows a pressure of 3,800 psi lower again in th 45, but at this level the 45 with same weight bullet is 143 FPS faster, showing the internal ballistic superiority of the larger diameter 45 over the 44. This is a fact that refuses to be acknowledge by a poster. He discounts it as meaningless, while claiming that .429 is larger than .452, the logic escapes me and goes against every experienced handgun hunters experience on large game.

Another example,

355 GR. BTB LFN GC
ManufacturerHodgdon
PowderLil'Gun
Bullet Diameter.430"
C.O.L.1.710"
Starting Load
Grains16.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,178
Pressure 37,900 CUP



BULLET WEIGHT360 GR. CPB LFN GC
ManufacturerHodgdon
PowderLil'Gun
Bullet Diameter.452"
C.O.L.1.760"
Starting Load
Grains20.0
Velocity (ft/s)1,330
Pressure38,000 CUP


With a 5 grain heavier bullet and only a 100 psi difference in pressure the 45 is 152 FPS faster and

Here is an even heavier bullet of 395 grains in . 452 diameter

BULLET WEIGHT395 GR. CPB LFN GC
ManufacturerWinchester
Powder296
Bullet Diameter.452"
C.O.L.1.770"
Starting Load
Grains18.5
Velocity (ft/s)1,169
Pressure27,200 CUP

With only 27,200 CUP the 395 grain 45 bullet is going 1,169 FPS and the 44, 355 grain bullet at 37,900 PSI is going 1,178 FPS AGAIN DEMONSTRATING THE 45's ability to handle heavier bullets better, this is something that one poster claims is not correct. Hogdon data again proves the 45 with its larger diameter has the ballistic superiority over its smaller brother

All data is from Hogdon

According to Grizzly Ammo their 45 Colt loads are loaded to 30,000 PSI. This picture shows the chronogragh results of their 335 grain hard cast fired from a 4 3/4" FA-83

This photo is of the chrono results of the Double Tap 44 mag 320 grain load fired from a 6" barrels Ruger Bisley

Very Good JWP. !!

I appreciate the FACTS and pressure tests by the companies.

Hopefully any/all less experienced loaders will read FAR enuff to learn and stay out of danger.

Thnx Again

Jerry

If I may, I'd like to interrupt this love fest with a couple of questions, relevant to the original post of this thread.

First, one of the Linebaugh articles cited on the first page states that the frames of the S&W revolvers chambered in .45 Colt aren't heat treated like the magnums are and that makes them more likely to suffer long-term wear damage from a steady diet of heavy loads. Does anyone know for certain if that situation has changed?

Secondly, some time ago, S&W developed an Endurance package for magnum caliber N frames that strengthened internal parts subject to wear from recoil. That wear, which I have experienced first-hand on an early 629, allows the cylinder bolt to release enough under recoil that the cylinder can rotate out of position, causing a chamber to be skipped. Similar lockwork improvements along with a crane detent, made the L frame .44s possible. Does anyone know if the Endurance package has been added to the S&W .45s?

Thanks.

Yes.

I have a 625-9. Assume it has an "endurance package". What parts were enhanced exactly. It is a nice shooter.

This. So says the S&W gunsmith I use. Unlike the S&W collector crowd, he loves the newer S&W's because the durability of the parts and the precision of the machining is better than the old guns. So far I'm not selling my old S&W's, but I'm buying new ones and liking them.

Don't know exactly, but suspect larger cylinder bolt, larger notches, and possibly stronger springs where needed. I found references to a "floating hand" as well. I'd suggest contacting Smith for specifics for your gun, which based on the -number, should fall into the improved series I would think.

I seem to recall reading that not all the mods were done to all calibers, specifically the .357s, but you know how reliable an old man's memory is!

So now you're comparing .44Mag data to .454Casull??? Yeah, dummy, you increase powder capacity even further and run at the same pressure, it's rather intuitive that velocity is going to go up. Linebaugh wrote the same sort of nonsense. Only problem with that is that the .45Colt can't run at the same pressure unless it's in a five-shot or a Redhawk. How about we actually compare the two cartridges in question instead? With the velocities I recorded from actual guns with 4 5/8" barrels in parenthesis.

.44Mag 355gr - 18.8gr H110 - 1245fps (1130fps) - 38,000CUP
.45Colt 360gr - 21.0gr H110 - 1151fps (1060fps) - 28,300CUP

In Hodgdon's data, the .44 gets 100fps higher velocity. In my testing, the .44 got 70fps higher velocity. So apparently, that added pressure is actually doing something. You're an idiot if you think that the .45Colt handles heavy bullets better, or handles heavier bullets. It doesn't. Fact, not opinion.

Nice job comparing a tight chambered FA to a Ruger too. My guns were as close as I could get them. You throw up two random examples and accuse me of cherry picking.

Where's the pressure data for your guns???

No I am not the dummy here. As I explained in a previous post when loaded to the same overall length which I do as well as others with heavy bullets ther is no difference in case capacity between the 2 cases. The pressure data clearly shows that the load in question is well within the pressure that is acceptable for reloading Ruger only loads

When loaded to the same overall length the base of the bullet is the same distance from the case head, thus the same capacity.

If there is a "dummy" here it sure isn't me, try looking in the mirror to discover identity.

That same Ruger chronographed the same velocity with the same Ammo on the same day as my 6" FA-83 did, JRH was a witness.

You assume way too much and your chrono data doesn't diminish or discover anything new. Different loads pressure up different in guns.

The data I posted to anyone interested that will accept it shows the ballistic saperiority of the larger. This is a fact in rifles and handguns

Metal masturbation.

Ballistic beat-offery; buffing the ballistic banana.

Egotistic onanism.

Kinetic chicken choking or choking the kinetic chicken.

I've been trying to work up a good saying involving "semi-auto erotica" except this is about revolvers.


My favorite so far is "having a gack jack".


Perhaps others can come up with alliterative terms to describe where this thread has gone?

Pap, I've been told by guys who are in the business that the stainless steel N-frame guns are all built the same, whether .44 or .45 or .41. What the exact serial number demarcates the boundary is anybody's guess, though... even the guys at the S&W Performance Center argue about that. Or so I'm told.

That's brilliant! You're going to use cartridges loaded to 1.760" or 1.770" in a cylinder that's 1.7"? Allowing for a 0.060" rim, you're either right at the end of the cylinder or 0.010" over. And what are you dong for a crimp groove? Because if the bullet moves at all it's going to tie up the gun. That is, if you can even get it chambered.

And since when is a six-shot Ruger Blackhawk safe for 38,000CUP? Are you refuting Linebaugh's 32,000CUP limit? Or will you just go to any and all lengths to prove me wrong? You're not doing a very good job. You're grasping and you aren't very well prepared.

Been loading my 45 colts loads to the same overal length of my 454 load since the mid 80's works like a charm.

Why do you not comprehend that it shows that will equal pressure the 45 runs away from the 44, at lower pressure the 45 colt keeps up with the 44 show the ballistic advantage.
The accept load today is 30,000 psi, I personally would have no qualms useing 40,000 psi loDs but would never recommend them on a forum or to just anyone.
Oh, I've known John Linebaugh since 1986 and talked with him yesterday.

Sorry but a 1.76" load doesn't work in a 1.7" cylinder.

Obviously, the .45 runs away at equal pressure. It has greater case capacity. Which is why I always say it doesn't even really come into its own until you get into five-shot territory. At which point, I'd rather have a .475 or .500. It's irrelevant in this case because the guns are not of equal strength and cannot be run at equal pressure. And if you're going to run the .45 at 40,000, then let's run the .44 at 50,000.