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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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It's not too tough to figure out where things went wrong on google earth. Those two turns would take some pulling to get around. I'm no river expert, but I do own a pro pioneer (the Soar 16's fatter twin) and did sleep at a holiday inn last night. I've also paddled on a 14' otter bailer with a frame, and a 13' bucket boat with frame. I know enough to say that:
1. Oar saddles (such as those on a S16 or PP) don't allow you to pull nearly as hard as a frame (but saddles are way better than paddles - I have plenty of experience in the PP running heavily loaded and alone on small-ish busy rocky fast water with a paddle, and typical result is several close calls with breaking the paddle...).
2. The SOAR boats are remarkably stable, but infinitely less so than a round boat of similar or larger size. Big haystacks aren't much fun in a PP, having been on some during some upper Chitina misadventures...Stability gets better with a load, which gets the floor fully submerged and puts waterline up the side tubes for a wider footprint.
3. Weak people with no experience have no business running busy, fast water, particularly in a raft with no frame. If you aren't a good water reader, you better be able to pull hard to find the late line through and orient the boat and get yourself out of trouble. Problem is, only experience on the oars allows you to both read water and skillfully pull hard. The two big turns mentioned in the story would be trouble for a poorly-manned round boat, let alone a PP or S16.
4. There's no good way to build experience besides running a raft. I'd pulled on lots of oars in a rowboat, but my first significant time on a river had me in a PP on the upper Chitina. Not optimal, and not the way to do things in hindsight. Would not have been fun if I was brand new to running oars. Absolutely agree with every point you make! The only thing I think you left out, which is huge IME&O, is the heavy rain and running while the river was still quite high. The way I read it, they weren't even able to make it to the right angle bends while still in the boat... Dry pants and splash jackets? In remote AK. With a combined air/water temp under 100 degrees? What do you want to bet that exposure is a contributing factor in at least one of their deaths? The woman that was unable to move towards the single throwbag. It sounds like the outfitter was 20 years lucky... Old saying here: Hell of a difference between 20 ears of experience and one year of experience 20 times... I agree completely...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I don't have as much experience as some here, but it never ceases to amaze me when I hear of someone planning a remote trip and not familiar with terms such as "ferry angle" and "cross ferrying"
I've run several remote rivers, the problem is you're out there long enough for weather patterns to change drastically and you're a long ways from any help other than what you can provide for yourself.
took my kids on the Chena one year, bluebird night when we got started, rains came and river raised 6 ft. overnight.
big ole trees floating by and water moving fast
was glad to get them off the river.
I feel for the guides, truly do, helluva thing to lose a client on your watch.
still wouldn't put two grandmas in an inflatable canoe to run the Kongakut, the Sheenjek or the Tickhik.
Everyone of those rivers was a work out at points along the way. I agree completely...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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This is precisely why I have only done one float trip in all the time I've been up here.
We don't raft anything where I'm from and every time I've been in a raft I've felt completely out of control and helpless. Not that a person who knows what they're doing isn't in control, but I don't know what I'm doing. Water is cold and drowny and I don't care to be in it. I have caught schit from many for saying exactly what you just said... slightly less drowny, but the same idea. I have years of experience in whitewater canoes and quite a bit in rafts and every part of the descriptions says YGBFKM!
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Come on Sitka, you have every reason to pissed at several events that took place that day. Bottom line is the guides lost control at the top and never regained it. Try to lighten up on the guides. I have a great friend that had a fatality on her boat, after seeing what she went thru I can tell you that they have enough on there shoulders.
We have to remember where we started. Pushing rubber is fun but sleeping in a tent and putting on wet river gear on every day gets old. $55 a trip doesn't do well for the 401K side so most people I worked with were college kids just wanting to get paid to play. Most were happy to have saved enough cash to get home.
A tight run Blue Angles style would have saved the trip and 2 lives. But at the same time, I know for a fact that when you have custies on the stick and fast water it's impossible to keep it tight. Their hesitation spread things out quick.
You oar frame guys can have that crap. I can get by on a good class 1 -2 fishing trip but those things scare the hell out of me in whitewater. It's a art form like tele skiing And you bring in another point with no answer... Coasties say the number one killer in boats is lack of local knowledge... I would be birddogging the weather and river flow numbers non-stop before that kind of trip. Finding a 6" rise in water would make me sit until things leveled out... they only waited until it came back to +6". Saddled with schit gear for the conditions and staff I doubt seriously that a Blue Angles run was possible. I see no reason to lighten up on the guides because there are so many freaking obvious points that scream "CLUELESS!!!!!".
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Regular
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At no point did I say that's where they fell in. The big cliff pileup at the second bend is where the one lady got stuck and ragdolled and drowned per the article. Up from that is a mile or two of whitewater per satellite, presumably where they wrecked. My point was - obstacles like that require that one is able to identify the line and pull hard. It's not too tough to figure out where things went wrong on google earth. Those two turns would take some pulling to get around. I'm no river expert, but I do own a pro pioneer (the Soar 16's fatter twin) and did sleep at a holiday inn last night. I've also paddled on a 14' otter bailer with a frame, and a 13' bucket boat with frame. I know enough to say that:
1. Oar saddles (such as those on a S16 or PP) don't allow you to pull nearly as hard as a frame (but saddles are way better than paddles - I have plenty of experience in the PP running heavily loaded and alone on small-ish busy rocky fast water with a paddle, and typical result is several close calls with breaking the paddle...).
2. The SOAR boats are remarkably stable, but infinitely less so than a round boat of similar or larger size. Big haystacks aren't much fun in a PP, having been on some during some upper Chitina misadventures...Stability gets better with a load, which gets the floor fully submerged and puts waterline up the side tubes for a wider footprint.
3. Weak people with no experience have no business running busy, fast water, particularly in a raft with no frame. If you aren't a good water reader, you better be able to pull hard to find the late line through and orient the boat and get yourself out of trouble. Problem is, only experience on the oars allows you to both read water and skillfully pull hard. The two big turns mentioned in the story would be trouble for a poorly-manned round boat, let alone a PP or S16.
4. There's no good way to build experience besides running a raft. I'd pulled on lots of oars in a rowboat, but my first significant time on a river had me in a PP on the upper Chitina. Not optimal, and not the way to do things in hindsight. Would not have been fun if I was brand new to running oars. Absolutely agree with every point you make! The only thing I think you left out, which is huge IME&O, is the heavy rain and running while the river was still quite high. The way I read it, they weren't even able to make it to the right angle bends while still in the boat... Dry pants and splash jackets? In remote AK. With a combined air/water temp under 100 degrees? What do you want to bet that exposure is a contributing factor in at least one of their deaths? The woman that was unable to move towards the single throwbag. It sounds like the outfitter was 20 years lucky...
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Campfire Outfitter
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Quote: "Before [the trip] began, each person signed paperwork acknowledging the trip's risks — the greatest one being death."
You guys think that will get them off the hook?
67 and 69 Y.O. women in the same boat? As Art says: YGBFKM
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
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Quote: "Before [the trip] began, each person signed paperwork acknowledging the trip's risks — the greatest one being death."
You guys think that will get them off the hook?
67 and 69 Y.O. women in the same boat? As Art says: YGBFKM
If they do end up in a legal fight I bet the defendants' attorney will wish they had kept their mouths shut...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Sounds a whole lot like the clusters for Mt Everest these days.
One big problem.
The desire for as much money as one can make, damn the torpedoes... well one torpedo got through...
I'd not have an issue if was all done correctly and something happened, but done correctly likely nothing would have happened.
Carolyn and I really want to do some floats once we get up there... I don't konw that it will be safe but sure hope we can find some calmer runs just to have the experiences.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
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Quote: "Before [the trip] began, each person signed paperwork acknowledging the trip's risks — the greatest one being death."
You guys think that will get them off the hook?
Nope, because it reads like negligence to me.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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rost495:
I'd not be one to discourage you in anyway. Float trips are a true marvel as one feels like he's in his own world. There is a learning curve, however, and one for sure should begin on the gentle side. Some experienced company is a great asset, especially if they have local knowledge and used similar craft.
There are great books covering many of our lower 48 rivers listing precise details all the way down to which clump of grass one should align with. One should still be constantly aware though, as events create new rapids, trees fall, and massive boulders move. About the same as any busy freeway.
Change is a serious issue with many of the far north streams given their braided nature and extreme variation in seasonal flows. Routes can shift throughout the season and for sure between years.
To quote the famous Johnny Cochran; "if in doubt - get out and scout."
Have a good one,
Last edited by 1minute; 06/30/16.
1Minute
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I run our local river all the time, mostly in an airboat. I understand a bit about currents and such, and what reading the calm water indicates the water is doing, or is under the water etc.... Don't own a raft here though, maybe should but then we'd have to get it to AK after that....
I am hoping to get some reading in on braids and the like, to figure things out, we walk around out on the ... dang wanted to say Salcha but thats not right, on the braids in teh fall when its clearing up and learn a bit just by wondering around.
I've generally never been one to push hard, rather pull back and weigh out choices before going, as sometimes my spur of the moment choices are not the best.
Good advice. Learning comes with a curve, we sure won't do the blackwater rapids first, hopefully never, LOL
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Quote: "Before [the trip] began, each person signed paperwork acknowledging the trip's risks — the greatest one being death."
You guys think that will get them off the hook?
Nope, because it reads like negligence to me. Release forms are seldom worth the paper they are printed on. It's one thing if the guides were on the boat with them, did everything they could and things just got out of control. But when the guides noted that the water was higher than normal, they send the two elderly ladies down by themselves and don't even have them in sight, it should be no problem for a lawyer getting a jury to find the guides negligent. One could argue for criminal negligence.
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Campfire Member
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Whoops - my bad. I interpreted your focus on the turns incorrectly. And yeah, I continue to lightly bump into the wall at one local rapid, no matter if captaining a paddle boat or rowing. Doesn't matter how hard I/we're pulling either. One of these days I'll get it sussed. P.S. Of course I just took a peek on Youtube, and apparently the right side I thought was too bony to use, isn't. Sonofagun.... At no point did I say that's where they fell in. The big cliff pileup at the second bend is where the one lady got stuck and ragdolled and drowned per the article. Up from that is a mile or two of whitewater per satellite, presumably where they wrecked.
My point was - obstacles like that require that one is able to identify the line and pull hard.
Jeff, I suggest you get your initial paddling/rowing whitewater rafting experience down in the lower 48 where it's nowhere near as remote, the water itself may be a LOT warmer (southern states) and for sure it's going to be a lot less expensive for training.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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gonna be much harder down here, but I'll put it on the list. No whitewater that I"m aware of anywhere close, but maybe just running the Colorado here out the back door would be better than none at all.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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When we ran the Sheenjek it was a pretty busy time at the oars
Lots of hard turns, shallow water, sweepers, bfr's etc
On that trip I had a pard on my boat a local doc
When we finally got to the lower river on an easy stretch he offered to take the oars to give me a break
Will never forget his incredulous response to how "hard" it was to keep the boat in the channel & not get hung up on the shallows
It's not rocket science, but it takes some knowledge of boating & often sheer muscle & energy to keep from winding up in a bad place in heavy water
Some knowledge of how boats move across the water, reading current & channels & setting up beforehand so you're not working against the teeth of the current is extremely helpful but even with said knowledge you often need muscle mass & energy to pull it off
Plus it never ceases to amaze me how an increase in water volume can make things harder
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Rafting nor canoeing is not my thing, although I do like to canoe is placid or calm waters. Through the years I have seen in the water canoes that have been folded in half by the water when getting caught mid point by a rock or even a tree trunk.
That happened to an aluminum boat in Chitina. Something happened to the motor, and the boat ended by one of the bridge's pillars where it got caught and folded in half by the water. The occupants were lucky to swim to the shore.
Last edited by Ray; 07/01/16.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Always remember it is easy to throw stones at these guys as we second guess what they should have done. Life up here is either spent reading about adventure or doing it. Preparation is key to a successful trip regardless of whether it's a remote float or a sno-go trip.
Bottom line is $hit happens even when we are 100% prepared for the worst. Any of us who think risk is preventable most likely has never been in these type of situations.
I give the guides the benefit of the doubt unless you have some inside information.
More Wag and less Bark
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Always remember it is easy to throw stones at these guys as we second guess what they should have done. Life up here is either spent reading about adventure or doing it. Preparation is key to a successful trip regardless of whether it's a remote float or a sno-go trip.
Bottom line is $hit happens even when we are 100% prepared for the worst. Any of us who think risk is preventable most likely has never been in these type of situations.
I give the guides the benefit of the doubt unless you have some inside information.
More Wag and less Bark Only an idiot like you could fail to see the obvious failure points. Failing to see them in hindsight means you are clueless on the water...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,683
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Always remember it is easy to throw stones at these guys as we second guess what they should have done. Life up here is either spent reading about adventure or doing it. Preparation is key to a successful trip regardless of whether it's a remote float or a sno-go trip.
Bottom line is $hit happens even when we are 100% prepared for the worst. Any of us who think risk is preventable most likely has never been in these type of situations.
I give the guides the benefit of the doubt unless you have some inside information.
More Wag and less Bark Only an idiot like you could fail to see the obvious failure points. Failing to see them in hindsight means you are clueless ... fixed it for you, you must have not read many of Walt's posts. if he isn't  he does a dang good imitation of it.
Last edited by 2legit2quit; 07/01/16.
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Only an idiot like you could fail to see the obvious failure points.
Failing to see them in hindsight means you are clueless on the water.. . The only thing I am clueless to is how an arrogant A$$ like yourself can hold yourself so high and mighty. We you there? Do you have another info other than what was in Alaska Dispatch. Have you ever #^cked up a decision? If you answered no, no and Yes than shut up! If you answered Yes, Yes, No than enlighten up with your pearls of wisdom. Are there mirrors in your shack of a home? If the answer is yes take 2 mins. to look into that mirror just once a day and describe your holiness for us otherwise say less. If you have nothing good to say than don't say anything at all...That was my mom back in 2nd grade. You could learn a lot from a mom.
Last edited by northwestalaska; 07/01/16.
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