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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
With any rifle....one has to shoot it to find out what it's capable of!! Applies to handguns, too.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
Was my neighbor once, long ago, in a place far away....The High River Country, in SW Alberta.
Ian Tyson
GTC Longview, IIRC... 
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 23,319
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 23,319 |
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,683
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,683 |
Love these type of threads. Thanks guys
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,639
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,639 |
Three hits out of eight shots, 1540 yards. .45-70, paper patched bullets, iron sights, 75 y/o eyes. Note the elevation and windage on the Hoke. All 44 minutes of windage weren't enough; had to hold off and still should have given it more, as the right side hits indicate. Paul ![[Linked Image]](http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m88/Paul39/038_zpsedf9c901.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m88/Paul39/035_zps734a561f.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m88/Paul39/019_zps5b9e74f6.jpg)
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,917 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,917 Likes: 2 |
I will add that before the Comanches became in volved with Cattle as Birdy mentioned, in the late 18th and early 19th century they were the premiere horse and mule raisers/traders on the western frontier. Which implies a great deal of commerce, and if not cash then large amounts of trade goods passing into the hands of Comanche middlemen. Likewise breeding mules ain't a random event but something which requires a great deal of husbandry, and the Comanches were trading a lot of mules, presumably not all of these were stolen or traded from Mexico. On the one hand we have the image of the Indian pony as an unprepossessing mount, on the other we have the famous example of the Nez Perce who only acquired horses late in the game selectively breeding fine horseflesh. We know that Comanches also practiced selective breeding and gelded those colts deemed lacking, if only because at least some extended this practice to some unfortunate youths captured in raids who were then set to tend the herds. Such organization of effort and large-scale commerce jibes poorly with our popular conception of a rather simplistic Comanche society revolving around buffalo, skin tents, and raiding. A pity the inner workings of Comancheria were so poorly documented by literate observers at the time, so much so that many thousands, fully half of their population, could be wiped out by cholera in '49-'50 with scarcely a peep from contemporary American or Mexican observers. This followed by the catastrophic but likewise poorly documented drought years of the 1850's that impoverished many Comanche survivors of that epidemic, further reducing their numbers and driving hundreds to settle in the Brazos Reservation, disease and drought together removing the more Southern and Eastern Comanche bands as major players from the Texas scene. In the same way that the remote Lakota Sioux up on the Northern Plains rose to historical prominence as a result of being pretty much the only ones left after disease and attrition had decimated adjacent tribes closer to the advancing Frontier, so it was the remote Quohada (??) Band of Comanches, the Antelopes way up on the Panhandle, still remained intact enough to become protagonists in the Indian Wars of the 1870's. Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,917 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,917 Likes: 2 |
A further note on the weapons and revolver thing.
One of the more catastrophic blows ever inflicted on the Comanches by force of arms, indeed one of the major blood lettings of Western History, occurred when Texas Ranger Captain John Moore led 90 Texan volunteers, guided by a party of Lipan Apaches, deep into Comancheria in October of 1840.
The previous year Moore had led a similar strike on a Comanche village on the San Saba, but that had ended ignominiously when the Comanches reacted to the attack by stealing Moore's own horses, leaving the party on foot with a long walk home.
On this second attempt, heeding the advice of his Lipan allies, Moore did everything right, and succeeded in surrounding a large Comanche camp on the Colorado completely undetected.
In the subsequent flawlessly-executed dawn attack, Moore's men killed between 120 and 180 Comanches at no loss to themselves. That death toll puts this attack right up there with the likes of Sand Creek, the Marias Massacre and Wounded Knee, but unlike those infamous incidents Moore did not strike a camp of Indians who believed they were safe, hit the wrong camp, nor was he attempting to disarm a captive band.
On the contrary Moore penetrated deep into hostile territory against a numerically superior enemy at a time when a state of war acknowledged by both sides was in effect. WHY this highly significant event has been almost totally overlooked in contemporary popular history is a mystery.
Pertinent to this discussion, by 1840 a prosperous plantation owner like Moore may have been packing a brace of what were then very expensive Paterson revolvers but no mention is made of it if he did. We do know that only one member of his force had a repeating firearm in the form of a Paterson carbine.
The rest of Moore's force were packing muzzle-loading rifles, the best estimates are that about half of the rifles carried by the Texas ranging companies in those years were still flintlocks.
So, possibly the greatest Comanche loss of life in a single fight was achieved by guys carrying what would have been mostly longrifles, about half of 'em flinters.
Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
As for Billy Dixon's famous shot, I am fully prepared to believe it may have been from the better part of a mile away, mostly because of the testimony of Billy Dixon hisself, who alway said it was a "scratch" ie. lucky shot, almost a fluke. Of course, if he weren't an outstanding shot, the shot would never have connected, lucky or not. I've read that having a few drinks, while pelting away at rocks up on the ridge on which that poor Comanche bastid caught some of Bridgeport's finest had been popular for some time prior....e.g. they already HAD the elevation sorted out.Thinkin' Red Meineke ( sp ?) wrote about that in his series in SPG's BPCR News. GTC I read something of the same, Cross. When I was much younger and knew a lot more "settled shooting science" than I know now (ahem) I scoffed at such long-range shooting claims. How could a primitive weapon like a Sharps rifle possibly perform at long range to such exacting specifications? Impossible, I'd say. As for Elmer Keith's claim of shooting a wounded mule deer at 600 yards, well, that had to be one of the most laughable tall tales of all time. Right? Wrong. When I started working heavy-duty revolvers a dozen years ago out of curiosity I thought I'd try ol' Elmer's "long-range" shooting technique to see if I could plunk some 265 gr bullets into a bucket at 100, 200, and 400 yards. I had time on my hands, y'unnastan. My initial results weren't good. It was hard knowing just how high I was holding the front sight up above the notch of the rear sight, so my shots were falling long and short all the time, but pretty good for windage, with some practice. So then I used some super-glue and fine gold fly-tying wire to make some horizontal hashmarks on the front sight of my Ruger Bisley revolver, in much the same manner as Elmer had the gold bars notched into the front sight of his No. 5 sixgun. Well, lo and behold, I found that once I could consistently index my front sight, I could lob 45-caliber bullets onto a 12" steel plate at 200 yards, and I did it often enough at 400 yards to know I could probably get pretty good at that range, too, if I took the time to practice. (This was not guessed-at 400 yards. This was on a NRA-certified 100-, 200-, 400- and 600-yard rifle range.) And using the vernier sights on my eye-talian replica 45-70 Sharps rifle, I could do the same at 400 yards. That's as far as I took it, but I know sharpsguy here on the 'Fire has experience ringing gongs way farther than that with his smokepoles. As have others, like jorgeI and Eviltwin. Now, as to range: I read an interestin' column by a BP aficionado who goes by the handle of Duke. Y'all who know who he is, he's the guy who gave Shrapnel his handle. I happen to have a PM link to Duke on another site, and we have been known to discuss things Darksiders are interested in at length and in detail from time to time. Stuff that non-Darksiders aren't that interested in. So he and I discussed this following incident at length. Here's the article:
HOW FAR WILL A SHARPS RIFLE SHOOT?
Mike Venturino
In the fall of 1992 the people at Shiloh Sharps were approached by a group of forensic scientists who were going to have a meeting at the Yuma Proving Grounds early in November. The were going to be allowed to use some newly unclassified radar devices to test the performance of various types of ammunition. Shiloh was invited to bring down some rifles and participate in the doings. Especially they wanted was a .50-90 So, Wolfgang Droege, previous Shiloh owner, Kirk Bryan, one of the present Shiloh owners, and Dennis Bardon, Shiloh’s custom gunsmith began making plans to attend. They also asked yours truly if he wanted to go, and I said I wouldn’t miss it.
However, I must admit to being a bit puzzled as to why they wanted to use such new—fangled radar gadgets to test such old guns. Well, when we got there we found out. It seems that one of the forensic scientists wrote an article in their newsletter saying that the Billy Dixon shot at Adobe Walls in 1874 could not possibly have happened. (Remember Billy Dixon knocked an Indian off his horse at a distance later surveyed to be 1,538 yards.)
Anyway, this particular forensic scientist did some calculations and arrived at the conclusion that a .50-90 Sharps (What Billy Dixon said he used could not have a bullet out that far. When I heard what this was all about thought, “That scientist is going to be embarrassed. He must not have fired Sharps Before. We all know they’ll throw a bullet that far.”
When we arrived at the Yuma Proving Grounds I was suitably impressed by it all. We had to have badges pinned to our shirts to move about the place, and I couldn’t take my camera out of the vehicle. A picture of the row upon row of Russian T—72 tanks would have been neat, but if I had tried we would have been thrown out. The test facility was a large bunker filled with electronic equipment, and covered with armor plate. I asked why and was told it was also the bunker from which they tested tank guns and the plate was to protect the inhabitants in case something blewup during testing. Since they weren’t too worried about our Sharps blowing up and killing the crew, we were free to roam out to the machine rest, which happened to be a modified gun carrier from a Russian T—72 tank.
This whole assembly was not about just testing Sharps. Many of the scientists brought their own weapons to gather data on ranging from .38 Special handguns to 12 gauge shotguns up to even a 20mm cannon. Finally time rolled around to try the Sharps. They elevated the gun carriage to 35 degrees and touched off a round of Dennis Bardon’s loads using a 675 grain bullet powered by about 90 grains of FFg. All the scientists running the equipment started stuttering and stammering, collectively saying, “It couldn’t be!” They just couldn’t accept that a bullet launched by black powder and starting out at a muzzle velocity of only 1,216 fps landed over 3,600 yards away!
I heard mutters of, “Shoot another one, something must not be working right.” So they turned loose another shot. This time the bullet weighed 650 grains and the muzzle velocity was 1,301 fps. Again the muzzle was elevated to 35 degrees. That bullet landed 3,245 yards downrange. The fellow who wrote the article saying Billy Dixon couldn’t have hit the Indian got real quiet and very red in the face.
From there on it was all fun. We elevated the muzzle to 45 degrees. The bullet again was 650 grains and started at 1,275 fps. It landed at 3,190 yards, but the most amazing thing was that it went up to a few feet shy of 4,000 feet and was in the a full 30 seconds!
One of the scientist there had a laptop computer and he did a bunch of tapping with the data accumulated so far and said, “Elevate the muzzle to 4 1/2 to five degrees and you’ll get a Billy Dixon shot. That was done with the same load and the bullet landed at 1,517 yards. I’d say that scientist was on the ball. Incidentally, five degrees of muzzle elevation can easily be gotten with only the rear barrel sight on a Shiloh Sharps. -
We tried one light bullet in the .50-90. It only weighed 450 gralns, and had 100 grains of FFg under it. It started out at an impressive 1,406 fps but with the muzzle elevated to 35 degrees it landed only 2585 yards away. That extra bullet weight sure makes a difference.
Next we played with a .45-110 (2 7/8 inch case). Using a 550 grain bullet with about 100 grains of Ffg. With the muzzle elevated to 35 degrees it started with a muzzle velocity of 1,322 fps and landed 3,575 yards down-range. Next we dropped the muzzle to five degrees. The small bullet started at 1,361 fps and the bullet went 1,430 yards. Interestingly, it was stil traveling 669 fps when it went into the ground.
The last Sharps we test fired was Dennis Bardon’s .40—70 Sharps Straight silhouette rifle. The bullet weighed 403 grains. I don’t have the exact powder charge at hand right now but it would have to be in the 58 to 60 grain range. The muzzle was elevated to five degrees and the bullet started out at 1,333 fps. It hit at 1,155 yards and was still traveling 688 fps.
The forensic scientists generally agree that any projectile from BB'S on up needs in the area of 300 fps to inflict a fatal wound. The .50 caliber Sharps bullets which started at 35 to 45 degree angles were coming almost straight down out of the sky, but they were still traveling at 350to 400 fps. In other words they were still deadly even at 3,500 yards!
A heavy,soft lead bullet travelling at 400 fps is a deadly projectile. I have killed deer DRT with my old Hawken-style muzzleloader with a dead soft round ball travelling at velocities approaching that. (Yes, I put a telescopic sight on a front-stuffer. I may be a Darksider, but I ain't no politically-correct purist.) I have no doubt that Billy Dixon killed that Comanch at 1538 yards with his Sharps rifle. Lots of us read Venturino's article when it came out. Whereas the gist of your post seems to be that Dixon could make the shot, I say again, he didn't kill the Indian. Eyewitnesses (other Injuns) said the dude was hit and IIRC, knocked off his horse. I don't think he was even seriously wounded though as again IIRC, the bullet didn't break the skin. I have no doubt Dixon made the shot...but for the sake of accuracy the Injun didn't die.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
IIRC, Billy Dixon's long arm in the Buffalo Wallow incident was a Springfield 1873 Cavalry Carbine in 45-70. Probably the same gun the other men were issued. Just in case any here have confused the two battles.
In the Adobe Walls fight where Dixon made the famous shot with a borrowed 50-90 Sharps, much of the motivation of the attackers was due to a Comanche who said he had "big medicine" that would make the Indians impervious to the big buffalo rifles of the hunters. When that turned out to not be true, the Indians backed way off. They also beat the [bleep] out of the Comanch that didn't have the medicine, IIRC.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,361
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,361 |
With any rifle....one has to shoot it to find out what it's capable of!! Applies to handguns, too. All too true. Especially handguns. Make some "impossible" shots and see what the naysayers have to say.
How many obama supporters does it take to change a light bulb? None, they prefer to remain in the dark.
The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.
George Bernard Shaw
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,394 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,394 Likes: 1 |
Re: the Billy Dixon shot being "luck
Tiger Woods has a much greater chance of making a hole-in-one than I - due to skill, alone.
The consistently tighter the groups, the better the odds of a pure bullseye, so to speak.
I've always been a curmudgeon - now I'm an old curmudgeon.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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