Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Why so many police shootings? - Chuck Baldwin responds

Another Unarmed American Citizen Shot And Killed By Police
By Chuck Baldwin
September 22, 2016


Another unarmed American citizen has been shot and killed by police--this time in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The frequency of these kinds of shootings is escalating exponentially--and every American citizen should be very concerned about it.

I watched the VIDEO, and neither the helicopter video nor the cruiser cam showed definitively what the victim was doing at the moment he was shot and killed. By walking away from the officers, he obviously was not obeying them (since when are police allowed to execute someone for simple, nonviolent disobedience?), but he was clearly unarmed, and his hands were in the air as he slowly walked toward an empty vehicle with his back to the officers. Was he trying to reach into the car? The video is not clear. He was not the subject of a criminal stop. The police were not acting on any arrest warrants. In fact, it seems he wasn't stopped at all but was approached by police after his vehicle had stalled.

If the officers are judged to be truly justified in this shooting, meaning the officers had to have believed their lives were in imminent danger by virtue of the fact that the victim had the means to inflict harm (such as a gun) and demonstrated aggression in a manner that would cause any reasonable person to believe his or her life was in jeopardy, I will gladly accept that decision (albeit it is extremely difficult to justify killing an unarmed citizen, especially one who is not charging or acting aggressively toward the officers--and police spokesmen in Tulsa readily admit that the victim was unarmed). And if this was an unjustified killing, those officers should be prosecuted as aggressively as any other American citizen would be--even more so as police officers are entrusted with the duty of PROTECTING society, not endangering it.

I'm confident that most shootings by police officers are justified, but, clearly, many of them are NOT. And ONE such shooting is too many. Unfortunately, there are many more than that.

The cold, hard truth is that the number of Americans killed by police officers is at a record high level. For example, in 2013, 773 people were shot and killed by police. In 2014, the number rose to 1,111. In 2015, the number spiked again to 1,207. And so far, police have killed (as of September 20) 842 in 2016, which is on a pace to almost equal 2015 numbers.

Here is the report:

Killed By Police[/color]

Just how many of these killings were not justified we will never know because the vast majority of unjustified shootings are swept under the carpet by the powers that be, leaving victims’ families to suffer without resolution and with intense resentment against our government and its representatives in law enforcement.

Even more disturbing is the fact that police shootings are largely underreported. Mind you, these statistics do not include police-inflicted deaths by means other than police bullets, such as stun guns and people in police custody.

A Washington Post report published last year states, “‘These [police] shootings are grossly under­reported,’ said Jim Bueermann, a former police chief and president of the Washington-based Police Foundation, a nonprofit organization dedicated to improving law enforcement. ‘We are never going to reduce the number of police shootings if we don’t begin to accurately track this information.’”

Police are only authorized to use deadly force when they fear for their lives or the lives of others and there is an imminent threat to life. This is the same principle of law that governs the conduct of American citizens in general. However, nowadays, running away (or in the Tulsa case, walking away) from a police officer could easily get one shot.

“Running is such a provocative act that police experts say there is a name for the injury officers inflict on suspects afterward: a ‘foot tax.’”

According to FBI statistics, over the past several years, police have killed around 400 people each year. But this stat was achieved in just the first five months of both this year and last. To be sure, many of these killings were completely justified--and even heroic.

The problem is, far too many chiefs of police, sheriffs, county prosecutors, judges, etc., are willing to either 1) not properly and thoroughly investigate police killings or 2) completely look the other way at questionable killings or 3) actually cover up wrongful deaths committed by police. Regardless, all of the above leads to a breakdown of justice and true law and order--and serious distrust on the part of the American citizenry regarding law enforcement agencies and the court system itself.

The Post report notes that for most police departments and sheriff's offices, a fatal shooting is a rare event (as it should be). However, 19 State and local police agencies seem to have much higher numbers than average of these incidents, including the police departments in Los Angeles, California; Oklahoma City, Oklahoma; and Bakersfield, California.

See the Washington Post report here:

[color:#3333FF]Fatal Police Shootings In 2015 Approaching 400 Nationwide[/color]

Over 5,000 American citizens have been shot and killed by police since 09/11/01. This is approximately the same number of U.S. soldiers killed in the line of duty in Iraq. Based on actual statistical data, you and I are 58 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than we are by a Muslim terrorist. Please let that figure sink in.

See the report here:

[color:#3333FF]A U.S. Citizen Is 58... Police Officer Than A Terrorist

“Despite far fewer officers dying in the line of duty compared with American citizens, police departments are not only increasing their use of protective and highly volatile gear, but are increasingly setting aside a portion of their budget to invest in new technology such as drones, night vision goggles, remote robots, surveillance cameras, license plate readers and armored vehicles that amount to unarmed tanks.”

See this report here:

[color:#3333FF]US Police Have Killed Over 5,000 Civilians Since 9/11[/color]

By contrast to the thousands of people killed by police, in 2013, 33 police officers were shot and killed; in 2014, 49 police officers were shot and killed; and in 2015, 41 police officers were shot and killed. (Source: National Law Enforcement Memorial Fund)

One of the reasons why so many of our police officers and sheriff’s deputies have become so abusive and trigger-happy is due to the training they are receiving. The “us versus them” mentality is much the result of training indoctrination. And, since 9/11 and the advent of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the federal government is mostly responsible for training policies, procedures, philosophies, etc., within State and local police agencies. In fact, most of our local police SWAT teams are trained by U.S. military Special Forces troops. DHS has turned our State and local police agencies into quasi-military units. And it has turned the U.S. citizenry into enemy combatants. I argue that the problems we are having with our police agencies today are the result of the ubiquitous and draconian influence from Washington, D.C.

Plus, think about the manner in which the federal government “bribes” State and local police agencies with all kinds of funding for everything from personnel to tanks and armored carriers, to sophisticated eavesdropping equipment, to military arms and ammunition, to helicopters, ad infinitum. If anything, the American people should be demanding that their local police departments and sheriff’s offices STOP accepting federal funding OF ANY KIND for their agencies. The way it is now, our State and local law enforcement agencies are more beholden to Uncle Sam than they are to the people whom they are supposed to serve. To ask the federal Justice Department to become more involved in local policing is like asking the proverbial fox to guard the proverbial hen house. Do you really want to turn your local police department over to the people who massacred the Branch Davidians?

In addition, in many communities (especially smaller ones) billionaires are allowed to donate unlimited amounts of money--amounting to millions of dollars--to local police departments and sheriff’s offices that, for all intents and purposes, turn local law enforcement agencies into little more than private mercenaries for the mega-rich. This, too, should STOP.

Plus, another major component of this problem is that our local and State police agencies and sheriff’s offices are being militarized. Look at Boston after the marathon bombing. The city was turned instantly into a Nazi-style Police State. People’s homes were invaded without warrant; people were manhandled; police dogs were turned loose on people without cause; guns by the hundreds were pointed at the people of Boston by police. No occupying military force in the world was any more efficient at locking down a large city as were the police agencies of the city of Boston and the State of Massachusetts.

The Department of Homeland Security and the Defense Department are all but forcing local and State police agencies to accept military equipment, tanks, attack helicopters, machine guns, and more. Of course, most local police agencies are ALL TOO HAPPY to receive this military hardware. In 2013 alone, the Pentagon gave half a billion dollars of military gear to local police agencies. They are supplying suggested training procedures, complete with lists of the people whom they (Washington, D.C.) consider “dangerous.” And more and more often, the people listed are people just like you and me: you know, people who believe in the Constitution; people who are pro-life; people who voted for Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, et al.

Most of the intelligence that police agencies receive comes from the DHS Fusion centers. Reading these memos is like reading the propaganda being spewed out by the radical, ultra-left wing Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). And in truth, much of the information that the Fusion centers distribute are carbon copies of SPLC propaganda.

Policemen training their weapons on the public has become commonplace nowadays. Even many minor incidents will often result in SWAT teams being deployed. In fact, Eastern Kentucky University professor Peter Kraska documents research showing, “There has been more than a 1,400% increase in the total number of police paramilitary deployments, or callouts, between 1980 and 2000. Today, an estimated 45,000 SWAT-team deployments are conducted yearly among those departments surveyed; in the ear ly 1980s there was an average of about 3,000.”

See Kraska’s report here:

[color:#3333FF]Militarization And Policing--Its Relevance To 21st Century[/color]

Has violent crime increased 1,400 percent during that time? Not at all. In fact, for the last several years, violent crime has been decreasing to the point that currently it is at record lows. So, how can the need for SWAT teams increase by 1,400 percent? It is the result of Washington, D.C., deliberately militarizing our police agencies. Give them military equipment, weapons, training, etc., and they will start acting like soldiers, not policemen.

A recent example of excessive use of force and the police-state mentality was prominently displayed in Boynton Beach, Florida. After questioning why the officers were ordering them around and starting to video record the officers during a traffic stop, the policemen became enraged, began physically assaulting the young men, and one officer pointed his pistol at them threatening to immediately shoot them. Granted, the young men acted rudely and disrespectfully. But since when in America are cockiness and rudeness a potential death sentence?

But the worst part of the story came afterward when the chief of police issued a statement defending the conduct of the officers. Chief Jeffrey Katz viewed the videotape (recorded by a passenger in the car) and said the following: “When I watch this video, I don’t see a car full of young men who are behaving in a manner consistent with FEAR OF THE POLICE.” (Emphasis added)

See the report here:

[color:#3333FF]"I’ll Put A Round In Your A** So Quick"[/color]: Florida Police Chief Defends Cop Who Threatened To Shoot Young Black Man Because He Filmed His Partner Throwing Him On The Ground

Ladies and gentlemen, that is not the statement of an American peace officer; that is the statement of a Nazi Brown Shirt. This is what happens when Washington, D.C., turns our local and State law enforcement officers into quasi-military units from a national police force. The police chief and his officers were angry that the young men didn’t FEAR them enough.

So, that’s it? We are supposed to FEAR the police? Really? Then, pray tell, whom are the police supposed to fear? My father didn’t teach me to fear the police. He taught me to respect the police. And he taught me that the police were my friends. He did not teach me that I had to fear for my life every time I’m pulled over for a traffic stop. And that’s not the way that Sheriff Cliff Arnold’s deputies in La Porte County, Indiana, behaved while I was growing up.

This escalation of aggressive police behavior prompted me to ask my constitutional attorney son to give a lecture on “Police Contact: How To respond.” We have that lecture on DVD. This presentation deals directly with the "Dos and Don'ts" when conta cted by a police officer. Tim discusses how to--and how not to--react to police traffic stops and other contacts. He clearly and thoroughly shows citizens their rights and duties under the Constitution and why it is so important that citizens understand and USE these rights. It is an EXCELLENT presentation. And what you do NOT know about this presentation can, and very likely will, hurt you.

Find the presentation, “Police Contact: How To Respond,” here:

[color:#3333FF]Police Contact: How To Respond[/color]

Here’s another true story: here in Montana, a small town police officer who is assigned to the traffic division was asked to speak to a local church group. Mostly he gives out traffic citations for minor violations. As he began his remarks, he said, “I am a cop; I work every day among the dregs of society.” Really? People who get parking tickets and speeding tickets are the “dregs” of society? That, my friends, is the mark of an unfolding police-state mentality. And, remember, this is from the heart and lips of a professing Christian.

It all begins with philosophy. Again, the philosophy being drilled into police officers today is that of an “us versus them” mentality. In the eyes of a Police State, we are not citizens to be protected; we are enemy targets who are guilty until proven innocent. Plus, the phrase that we hear constantly repeated today by law enforcement personnel and spokesmen is “the safety of the officer.”

Wait a minute! The sworn duty of a police officer is to obey the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights), which is designed to protect the rights, liberties, and peace of the American people. The role of the police officer is to protect the safety of the public. Any man or woman who volunteers to put on a badge should be consciously willing to put his or her life on the line to protect the public. That’s what their job is all about. And no one forces them to take this risk; they take it of their own volition. Of course the men and women of law enforcement want to go home at the end of their shifts. But so do the people of our communities. The lives of police officers are no more or no less valuable than the lives of the rest of the people who live in their communities. Simply donning a police uniform gives no more worth to the wearer than putting on a nurse’s uniform, janitor’s uniform, waitress’s uniform, delivery man's uniform, or any other person’s clothing--uniformed or not.

Another remedy is the citizens of our respective counties should demand that the State legislatures and/or county commissions establish an independent Citizen Review Committee charged with the task of investigating EVERY incident of alleged police abuse and especially EVERY incident involving a police shooting.

Quite frankly, we can no longer trust the internal affairs division of our respective police agencies to adequately police their own. This Citizen Review Committee should have the financial ability to hire independent private investigators to examine these incidents. And the committee should be given teeth. It should be mandatory that the prosecutor’s office prosecute an officer if the committee investigation finds probable cause--in much the same way that a gra nd jury’s indictment is binding. It would be even better if an independent prosecutor was assigned to these type cases. In many counties, blatant cronyism between the prosecutor’s office and the city police departments and county sheriff’s office is way too common. The money should be taken from the annual budget appropriated for the actual police agencies. After all, providing accountability to the public is as much a part of a police department's responsibility as providing a squad car or K-9 unit to police personnel. Without accountability and the respect of the public, all of the police personnel and equipment in the world is not sufficient to keep the peace.

Sadly, police agencies and county attorney’s offices have a dismal record of thoroughly investigating police shootings (or even police brutality charges). Mostly the word of the officer is accepted almost without question. Plus, it is common knowledge that many officers carry “throw down” weapons to circumvent incrimination. Furthermore, police officers are seldom willing to testify against a fellow officer--even when they know the officer has committed a crime.

I n addition, the American people should demand that appropriate tax dollars be allotted for the Office of Public Defender (OPD). In most states and districts, the OPD is one of the most underfunded entities of all. And the OPD is the one office at the courthouse that is constitutionally mandated. Yet most “law and order” conservatives look at the OPD with disdain--but somehow they still refer to themselves as “constitutionalists.” Too many people have the attitude that someone is guilty simply because he or she was arrested and, therefore, must PROVE THEMSELVES INNOCENT.

Yet one of the bedrock principles of American law and justice is that a person is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY in a court of law. Tragically, this principle has been all but lost in the thinking of many of our citizens today. It demonstrates a serious lack of understanding and appreciation for liberty itself.

A civil government--any civil government--should NEVER be allowed to take away an individual’s liberty without the strictest requirements. The old adage is still true: “It is better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent man suffer.” (William Blackstone) Americans need to start defaulting to liberty in their thinking once again. This was the Spirit of ’76. For so-called conservatives and Christians to demonstrate a “prove your innocence” mentality reveals that they have lost all appreciation and respect for individual liberty and the due process of law.

The county prosecutor’s office has virtually unlimited monies to prosecute people. In fact, the prosecution and imprisonment of the American people has become a HUGELY PROFITABLE BUSINESS. The confiscation of properties and assets of accused (sometimes accusation is all that is required to confiscate a person’s wealth and property) and convicted persons often serves as a significant revenue stream for many cities and counties--as do traffic citations.

Anyone who thinks speed laws are mostly for “safety” is seriously naïve. It’s mostly about generating revenue for the various State and local police agencies, prosecutor’s offices, courts, etc. Most police agencies and prosecutor’s offices directly benefit from speeding tickets and from people being arrested and sent to jail. Not to mention the inc entives that come from Washington, D.C.

A properly constituted and funded OPD is the second to the last line of peaceful defense against government overreach and abuse. The last line of peaceful defense against government overreach and abuse is the citizen jury. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that a sizeable percentage of people serving time behind bars today are there unjustly. They were convicted by overzealous prosecutors trying to make a name for themselves (not to mention career advancement) by circumstantial evidence and by the lack of an adequate defense.

Public defenders are pressured to “go along with the system” and not backlog the court by rendering a thorough and vigorous defense of their clients. The weight of city hall often threatens to come down hard on honest public defenders that won’t roll over for the prosecutor’s office. Judges, likewise, pressure public defenders to “hurry up” with their defense procedures as all of these myriad laws (especially drug laws) enacted over the years have resulted in most courts being seriously backlogged with cases. And in the minds of most of these “public serva nts” the answer is for the public defenders to not bog down the system by being too detailed and thorough in the defense of their clients.

It’s a rigged system, folks! And it’s not rigged in favor of you and me; it’s rigged in favor of the police and prosecutors. This reality makes it far too easy for police to literally “get away with murder.” Fully authorized and functional citizen review committees and adequately funded (and appreciated) Office of Public Defender and police departments and sheriff’s offices that are NOT beholden to the federal government (or billionaire donors) could make a tremendous difference in restoring accountability to our police agencies and public trust in our police departments and prosecutor’s offices.

As police killings rise--and as public distrust and anger rise along with it--a rational and reasoned response becomes obligatory. It begins with people, especially our conservative, Christian, Republican friends, recognizing the current holes in our justice system and returning to common sense, constitutional principles. If this doesn’t happen soon, political agitators will create a clim ate of violence and lawlessness that will only produce more of the abuse and misuse of law that is already taking place. And this accomplishes nothing, except making it easier for big-government usurpers to justify themselves in their attempt to encroach upon more and more of our liberties.

Why don't people recognize that a toy gun IS a threat?
Instant ID is impossible, and hesitation on an officer's part could be deadly. These scenarios play out in seconds.


That said - I agree with much of what he says - particularly concerning police militarization.
Hell - I remember cops being friendly!

Exactly. Like someone posted the other day, cooperate with the police and live to go to court to correct what you thought was wrong. If you're holding a book and the cop yells, "Drop the gun!" Don't argue. Drop the book.

Author of the story misses one very important fact in his story... there is no requirement for police departments to report police shootings to any type or form of a database... and thus no accurate information on the numbers of actual killings by police whether justified or not! In fact the FBI's information is so non existent that the Washington Post has stated that it is trying to build a database on its own, and that was just last year.

In other words their is no data as to police shootings!


Hell, just one local city here nearby is nearly up to 100 so far this year probably half by police, and we all know what Chicago is like... crap, the United States Geological Survey recognizes more than 35,000 cities and towns in the U.S... bet you could multiple the story's numbers by 10 and it would be closer to the truth.

Phil

People do not even recognize what a lawful order is anymore.

Then they get cranky when they get tazed for disobeying a lawful order.

It's really not hard to fix.

Teach people (in high school?) what a lawful order is and how not to get shot, then how to resolve issues afterward.

Odd, I was able to go through 25 years of law enforcement without shooting someone. I did get bruised. I did get dirty. I did get my uniform torn and I even worked up a sweat a time or two. I even have a couple of scars to remember a suspect's name for. I also know there were at least two times when I could have shot and been totally justified in my actions.

I think training is lacking today. Or, too many cops aren't willing to go that one extra step...or there may be too much fear and too little confidence on the part of some cops.

I'd never do it again, not today.

Chuck Baldwin is a kooky guy.

I would give them benefit of doubt as they hold thankless largely unappreciated low paying job. US police agencies need military vehicles and weapons for time when the system collapses and order in the streets will need to be kept.

More cops = more cop encounters.





Travis

Entitlements, and all these pussies born after 1980 that were raised by idiots telling them how fu-kin special they were.

The world revolves around ME, I don't have to listen to you, haven't you heard?, I'M special!

Oh yeah, and montel williams guests, how can one whore be on stage with 9 different men trying to find out who the daddy is?

No strong father figure will raise a fuggin idiot, every damn time!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


This.



Plus the fact that more are getting to the media. More aren't happening, just the 'news' of them is getting out more frequently. Sure don't hear about them if the 'victim' ( aka: the perp) is white...

Lawful order? I had a neighbor who went to school and became a cop. He told of ordering someone to "come over here" because he didn't like his looks, said he almost had to shoot him because he didn't.

Since I don't realize I am doing something wrong, a sudden request will come as a surprise and not be heeded right away.

I do not know what to do about the cop culture, sticking with their own. The only cops I know are those on here and another board.

I absolutely agree with what Baldwin says--good article. The great majority of police shootings are entirely justified--often the citizen needed a good killing. But their is plenty of evidence police are also committing murder, and prosecutors and judges are turning their backs.

I would like to see states set up citizen committees/grand juries who can investigate police shootings and recommend if an officer(s) should be prosecuted.

About underfunded Public Defenders; in the case of a "not guilty" verdict allow citizens to sue government for the legal (and other) costs of defending oneself. Or for that matter, civil cases also.

Casey

Spot on.

I found little to disagree with in that article.

About 20 years ago there was a white guy in Norfolk who allowed a hysterical woman to enter his apartment. She was running from her crazy boyfriend who was threatening her. The good samaritan got his 12 guage out and waited for whatever and also called the cops. When the cops knocked on the door he responded with shot gun in hand not knowing if it was the cops or the crazy boyfriend. Cops shot him dead instantly due to the shotgun.

I never forgot that dynamic.

About the same time in the same area they shot a wife in a kitchen in a domestic dispute bicker because she had a knife in hand.

I dunno...

I don't want to get shot like that.

I don't like being pushed around by anybody at all anywhere at any time. Some day I will probably be shot by somebody.

Continued poverty in Democratically controlled cities = more deadly force encounters with police.

Baldwin is a contradiction with his own statements. He said most police shootings are justified but many are not. Huh?

He also said that just ONE unjustified shooting is too many. Well you better wake up from your drunken stupor because that is not reality.

Here is another arrogant one making pronouncements with little or no idea what the reality is on the streets.

As I said elsewhere, let's create "no go zones" for police in order to prevent just ONE unjustified shooting.

That makes sense. You should stop sending cops into certain areas making them cop-free zones like they do in some countries like South Africa.

What the hell are you talking about? Cities, counties and states have all kinds of "independent" advisory groups and citizen grand juries to determine unlawful police action.
BLM last year in Mpls. PROTESTED LOUDLY for Co. Atty. Mike Freeman to make the decision himself without a grand jury. He exonerated the cops after an exhaustive investigation.
BLM then complained bitterly that Freeman didn't have all the facts.
So-----in law enforcement you can be damned if you do and damned if you don't.

It is mind numbing simple eh Poobs?

SIMPLE RULES FOR SURVIVING POLICE ENCOUNTERS:

1. Follow all police verbal commands.

2. Follow Rule #1.

3. If you feel you were improperly treated, file a citizen complaint at the PD.
Your case will be reviewed and you will be interviewed. If you still feel victimized,
take you case to the local media. But at least you didn't escalate the "encounter"
to some level on the force continuum.

Based on actual statistical data, you and I are 58 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than we are by a Muslim terrorist. Please let that figure sink in.


My favorite of his quotes

A whole lot of it comes from affirmative action hiring practices, I would guess more than half of the cops, hired in the last ten years, have been hired more by "what" they are, instead of how capable they are.

And add to that the diminished IQ of the inner city section 8 dwellers, and the Ebonic language barrier, there is trouble in the air.

A law abiding citizen has virtually ZERO chance of being killed by a police officer.
Yet a random terrorist attack puts us all at risk!
Pleased let these facts sink in.

Who would you rather have as a neighbor? Sheriff David Clark or Chuck Baldwin?

I'll take door number one for the win Bob.

But the citizens who commit the crimes of having a busted taillight, failing to use a turn signal, or having a missing front license plate 'are' subject to being killed by a police officer.

Not if you don't act like a dick

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Getting loud and lippy spoolin those guys up aint healthy!

Comply or die.

GFY!

Well, cite your proof where this happened and the involved officer(s) were charged?
We will all be waiting.................

You know as well as I do that's a crock of schitt, but if it makes you fell better, go ahead and keep thinking it. Non compliance WILL likely end up with you getting your ass handed to you and you going to jail...if you've got a gun and are non compliant, it's your choice how you want it to go...stupid SHOULD hurt and often does...

lol

The officers *aren't* being charged in many of these cases...and "proof where this happened" is easily found with minimal effort for those who 'want' to find it. Walter Scott and Samuel DuBose were both the 'perpetrators' of minor traffic infractions and then killed by cops.

Honestly, I can't stand the tactics of most of the LE I have to deal with. Most come at me with the attitude that I am guilty and they just need to catch me. It's bullshit but unfortunately the reality we live in. Just a handful of bad encounters with a power hungry cop really sours a guy.

I am respectful to LE, but I don't trust them for a second.

I guess we are lucky, we rarely see that down here, though the last one was fish and game one...

I've no use for the guilty until proven innocent and if you have a streak of them I feel for you.

I know the way we respond to local LEO also helps the situations, but that is no guarantee.. the last fish and game guy that was a moron, he would help me in my hunter safety classes, answer any questions, worked in a local outdoor shop and so on.. but was a complete by the book ass in the field.

What is wrong with the "comply or die" LE attitude is that it does not leave room for non-English speaking, deaf/hard of hearing, drugged (legal or otherwise), mentally retarded/incapacitated, etc. These handicaps should not be the death sentence they often turn out to be. And so LE must never take the comply or die stance.

Cops can routinely initiate unlawful contact with other citizens with no fear of consequences. Complaints of other citizens are known only to the Agency the cop works for, so there is little or no redress available thru the channels set up for it.

People who KNOW there is no reason for a cop to be interfering with them are not as likely to do the "Yessuh Master" bit as a person who is doing something wrong.

They are the ones most likely to be WRONGFULLY killed by cops.

Their offense?

Being an arrogant citizen.

Contradiction?

Where?

That was my reaction to first reading that statement, too. I don't see the contradiction either. Most and many don't contradict, e.g., most apples are red, but many are yellow.

You've been had guys. Hitler perfected the "Big Lie" technique and you guys are falling for it.
Chuck Baldwin assumes he can see a video or two and knows all about what happend ? Do any of you recall the Rodney King incident and riots ? The LAPD cops were roasted by a 15 second segment of a much longer video by the press. Even the then chief of police, a guy with very little actual time on the streets, bought it as proof positive of their misconduct. Turns out they were innocent. They used what force they were allowed to use to make an arrest.
Yeah, I know. Two of them were found gulity in federal court. Anybody know what happend to their attempt to appeal their convictions ? Not the government's appeal of their sentences, but the appeal of their convictions. The 9th Circuit Court refused to rule on it. Their right to appeal was denied.... Every hear of Double Jeopardy ? According to our constitution it is forbidden. But not to cops.
Yes, cops can make mistakes. All human beings do. But falling for the left's propaganda is a much worse thing. They deserve at least the benefit of the doubt.
I don't see anything like that in Chuck Baldwin's comments.
Where we are headed is to a time were the cops won't be there keeping are communities safe. Lots of our large cities are already there. Get ready to deal with bad guys yourself. If you do, you will get the same emotional, biased treatment they have been recieving for many years now. E

No, they don't.

The very first cop who lied to save his partner's ass threw that "benefit" away.

"Often"???

Yeah...we have a real problem with cops shooting people because of the issues you list...unless they're brandishing a weapon.
Even then, a cop pointing his weapon at you is a pretty universal language to stop what you're doing and raise your hands....if you're too retarded or drugged to understand THAT, you won't last long regardless of whether a cop shoots you or you shoot yourself...

Remember the post a few years back of the video of the cop shooting the deaf man walking away while cutting an apple with a pocket knife? He shouted the command to drop the knife, but he kept walking, because he didn't hear it.

And?




Dave

Don't forget those federal charges were for civil rights violations. The original "hate crime" bill.

Day wazz raciss.




Dave

I have neither the time or inclination to read all of this, no doubt highly flawed and biased, treatise on police behavior. But here is what I know. We have the most criminal administration in the history of the country. A complacent and equally criminal by lack of discernment public has allowed this to be. This administration has fanned the flames of racial hatred and directed it to the police who are that public's buffer from horrendous crime because they want that buffer to crumble so it can be re-shaped by marxist totalitarian design. In doing so, the top law enforcement officials in the country are not giving support to our police when they most need it and our top politicians are giving comfort and support to a nefarious group, black lives matter, on record advocating the execution of police officers. All this blends together to make cops more than suspicious of motivations from above and in fear for their lives on a much higher level than every before in their careers and history.

I have heard nearly no one call this out as the rational for the increase in police shootings of blacks on TV, even Fox, and neither of the half dozen or so posts and read. I believe we all know and understand the gravity of the next election, and noting how dogs and lieberals return to their vomit, and further Trump has "chose" to wing the debate, believe we are totally screwed. I have to wonder how many of our white children and us will be slain by angry vicious blacks after the changes called for by the traitor in chief yesterday take place in the legal system. Sew to the wind, reap the whirlwind.

Spoken like a true Nazi.

I agree with this 100%.

And I'd add that the reason cops can have the amount of contact they do, is because of the politicians we elect. If this country would stop passing a new fugking law every week, we'd all have less contact with law enforcement.

I also tire of the "we need more cops" mantra put out by politicians. We have more than enough.



Travis

Do any black people live in Iowa?




Dave

So this happens "often" or is a widespread issue within the LE community?

ETA: Was he shot in the back???

As I recall, yes. I believe it was a Seattle cop.

No...he wasn't cutting an apple, he was a local woodcarver and was only deaf in one ear IIRC I also believe he was shot in the side...I'm not gonna google it, but I certainly don't think police shooting deaf people, foreigners or retards has been much of a problem...again, a LE officer pointing a weapon at you is a pretty universal sign that it's time for you to stop what you're doing and put your hands in the air...ymmv.

More than Montana.

There is no contradiction at all. Many and most are not synonyms; most means a majority, while many means numerous.







This perfectly deomonstrates the mentality Baldwin objects to. Police are not representatives of the King; they are public servants in a position to PROTECT citizens.

Seems to me that to argue with Baldwin's logic is to argue against the basic principles upon which this country was founded.

Given that fact, I have little hope for the future of freedom in this country given the responses here.

On the other hand I'd be interested to hear how many actually read the article...

Baldwin has it right; this isn't a black & white issue.

Details of particular incidents are designed to sidetrack. Baldwin speaks to the underlying issues.

We are headed full bore toward a police state and upon that direction both Republicans & Democrats completely agree.

Gee, I was always told that I was a free man. That means a law enforcement officer has NO AUTHORITY at all over me unless he has a reasonable suspicion that I have violated a law. I'm under no compunction to follow an order from them.

True, but death is a hell of a price to pay for LEO ego's...

Phil

And that is why people are starting to get fed up.

The Fourth Amendment actually calls for probable cause (a much higher standard than "reasonable suspicion"), and even then only after acquiring a judge-signed warrant, but the courts rewrote it to permit being messed with based solely on their new invention of "reasonable suspicion."

Where, again, in the Constitution, are the courts given the power to rewrite the US Constitution/Bill of Rights so as to make the jobs of police officers easier? I can't find that part.

I think this is the point at which Barak would clear his throat, "ahem," and it is at this point where I have to agree that his is a cogent one:

All government is self serving; all dispensaries of power will inevitably abuse said power, dispensing it according to their needs for expediency & convenience (the common good its call... a cost of protecting of the subjects er citizens don't ya know).

Freedom as envisioned by the founders isn't a neat and tidy thing. Those who "protect and serve" would do well to remember the fates of many who gladly took up that responsibility at the founding and who honorably paid the ultimate price for the courage of their convictions.

Well if that dude tried to smoke a J and get lippy in 1778, it would have been a whole lot uglier.




Dave

Like I said, details of specific incidences ignore and are a distraction to the central issue.

Clearly there have been justified instances of police using force appropriately but the underlying issue of "us vs them" that informs agents of a police state is there.

All ya gotta do is read Bigwhoops comments to see it clearly.

When the citizens are expected to be afraid of the police there is a broader cultural, not indcidual officer problem.

Exactly and when that is the ruberic through which citizens are expected to interact w/ LEOs we've ceased being citizens and become subjects.

We're not quite there yet, but the federal govt has us headed in that direction quickly.

Federal government has nothing to do with it... it all starts with the local elections and appointments. Too many people want to have a say just every 4 years and ignore their local elections. That's the problem.

Phil

Police officers can make a mistake. Everyone does.

Yep.

This is something I consider often living in California! If a LEO gets roasted when they shoot regardless of maybe, no question reasonable, or? What happens to a Non LE who has to use deadly force to stop a threat? No Police Union, No Mayor, or anyone to have your side but a very expensive Lawyer!
What I see, if Liberals have their way, Law Abiding Citizens who do protect themselves and use a gun to do so, will be guilty regardless of the circumstance. The Police are just the first phase of this.

Don't disagree with what you're saying here but do you agree with Baldwin that the Federal gov's encouraging use of military-style weapons through grants and such has a lot to do with it as well?

Local govs are gonna have a hard time saying no to THAT drug...

But in that sense yeah local pressure will help.

You gonna be the guy in the townhall speaking forcefully in favor of turning down free stuff?

Yep and when we do it's called manslaughter as the officer in Tulsa has been charged. In many places that isn't the rule.

I know many police officers and the ones I know are great people devoted to service which is why it's so important that those who make mistakes are held to account. Anything less cheapens the great job the majority are doing on a daily basis.

It has much more to do with the War on Drugs and the F'd up laws that make virtually every citizen a target of LE.

BS. Ferguson and black lives matter prove otherwise.

No disagreement here.