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if we gonna dig down into the details at the 17 decimal point level, we all know a mere human can't kill a God. even the lowly commoners know that.
but, i'm sure there's a theological way or argument to side-step or by-pass the obvious. the cohen were good at that. ol Aaron had it down pat for his tribe or crowd. we'll just have to show patience and wait for the work-around to show up.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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if we gonna dig down into the details at the 17 decimal point level, we all know a mere human can't kill a God. even the lowly commoners know that.
but, i'm sure there's a theological way or argument to side-step or by-pass the obvious. the cohen were good at that. ol Aaron had it down pat for his tribe or crowd. we'll just have to show patience and wait for the work-around to show up. Gus, Humans have killed many god. As our ideas shift the old gods have died.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Gus, Christianity (and all religions) have perfected the 'side-step' and excuses--indeed they MUST for their contradictions to 'work'. I call them Lordy Loopholes. 
It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...
Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.
Stupidity has no average...
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Gus, Christianity (and all religions) have perfected the 'side-step' and excuses--indeed they MUST for their contradictions to 'work'. I call them Lordy Loopholes. So, you think Gus has come up with a loophole? Mere humans can't kill a God?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Gus, Christianity (and all religions) have perfected the 'side-step' and excuses--indeed they MUST for their contradictions to 'work'. I call them Lordy Loopholes. So, you think Gus has come up with a loophole? Mere humans can't kill a God? Human's can't kill a god for the same reason we can't kill a vampire. None exist.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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What was there BEFORE god? Who made God? Out of what?
Don't quote scripture, that was written by men and went through translation after translation.
I'd like someone to try to answer without using scripture.
In fact, I'd like to know how the Bible defines time. You ask questions "before God and Who made God?" This is like asking, To whom is the bachelor married? The questions make no sense. If God exists and called the universe into existence by the Power of His Word then He is infinite. Infinite has no "Before" or a maker. Infinite is without bounds of time, material, knowledge, space or anything else one might think of. The Bible defines time in Its first chapter. It says it is marked by the sun and moon. It also establishes that the sun and moon would be for signs, and seasons and days and years.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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antelope_sniper, Vicarious redemption.
You were bad, so let's murder an innocent......yea....that doesn't really make any sense...... Your faith is strong. You demonstrate again you don't begin to comprehend the rules the Rule Maker made. Previously you've also admitted that it makes no sense at all to you that the Creator of the Universe would require a blood sacrifice in order to forgive. Not really all powerful if forgiveness requires the blood sacrifice of a innocent. How would you know since you are a finite human judging an Infinite God?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire 'Bwana
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antelope_sniper, Vicarious redemption.
You were bad, so let's murder an innocent......yea....that doesn't really make any sense...... Your faith is strong. You demonstrate again you don't begin to comprehend the rules the Rule Maker made. Previously you've also admitted that it makes no sense at all to you that the Creator of the Universe would require a blood sacrifice in order to forgive. Not really all powerful if forgiveness requires the blood sacrifice of a innocent. How would you know since you are a finite human judging an Infinite God? I can forgive without a blood sacrifice. Your god cannot, therefore you concept of god is not an infinite, but a small, petty, finite being.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 09/26/16.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Gus, Christianity (and all religions) have perfected the 'side-step' and excuses--indeed they MUST for their contradictions to 'work'. I call them Lordy Loopholes. So, you think Gus has come up with a loophole? Mere humans can't kill a God? Human's can't kill a god for the same reason we can't kill a vampire. None exist. So, you opted for a loophole?
Last edited by TF49; 09/26/16.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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MojoHand, As far as penal substitutionary atonement goes, it contradicts itself. Forgiveness means to 'release a debt'. If God is 'paid off' by a blood sacrifice that pays for all of humanity's sins then there is nothing to forgive....he's gotten his payoff. All men are now 'justified'.
Christians like to claim that your debt is paid but you must 'accept' this free 'gift' for you to be forgiven. Complete comtradiction. You seem to be missing the part where the One Who says there is a debt established the rules on how to take advantage of the sacrifice. He set it up so that the Blood of Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world but The Same Rule Maker set up the rule that one must asked for it by word or deed. Christians like to claim that your debt is paid but you must 'accept' this free 'gift' for you to be forgiven. Complete comtradiction.
If, say, I owe Gus a debt and you pay it off for me, YOU are showing mercy, not Gus. Gus has gotten his payment and I am now free and clear of my debt to him whether I accept it as being true or not!
He will not/can not punish me for not believing or accepting my debt has been paid off much less condemn me to pay it off forever (that's a lot of vig!). The debt has been paid...period. Gus has not 'forgiven' me...he got his payoff.
This is written by someone trying to put the Infinite God in a box of his manufacturing. God is not influenced by this logic. The entire 'theory' of substitutionary atonement is so bizarre, contradictory, stupid and evil that it could only have been dreamt up by superstitious, ancient humans. This was no doubt to control the populace for in a Monotheistic society where sacrifices are demanded by 'God' and those sacrifices are administered completely by the 'priesthood', guess who is in control? Israel's Kings were basically emasculated rulers. The real powers were the Levites--but that's another whole topic for another thread. You continue with the same flawed human logic to put the Creator of all the rules in your manufactured box. Oh, and don't forget...god 'does not delight in the blood of bulls or lambs' nor takes 'delight in sacrifices' but the 'sacrifices of the lord are a broken spirit; a broken spirit and a contrite heart he will not despise.'
Someone shoulda told Jesus.... Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. He is the One who inspired the writing of desiring a broken spirit.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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antelope_sniper, No, I'm applying modern logic to a bronze age religion. There is nothing "divine" about murdering an innocent for the sins of another. Again you are using your finite brain to erroneously judge the Infinite God. I'm using my modern mind to judge the primitive bronze age authors of the OT. Then why do you mention God?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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antelope_sniper, Vicarious redemption.
You were bad, so let's murder an innocent......yea....that doesn't really make any sense...... Your faith is strong. You demonstrate again you don't begin to comprehend the rules the Rule Maker made. Previously you've also admitted that it makes no sense at all to you that the Creator of the Universe would require a blood sacrifice in order to forgive. Not really all powerful if forgiveness requires the blood sacrifice of a innocent. How would you know since you are a finite human judging an Infinite God? I can forgive without a blood sacrifice. Your god cannot, therefore you concept of god is not an infinite, but a small, petty, finite being. You are not the One who has been sinned against. You cannot set up the rules for forgiveness.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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antelope_sniper, Vicarious redemption.
You were bad, so let's murder an innocent......yea....that doesn't really make any sense...... Your faith is strong. You demonstrate again you don't begin to comprehend the rules the Rule Maker made. Previously you've also admitted that it makes no sense at all to you that the Creator of the Universe would require a blood sacrifice in order to forgive. Not really all powerful if forgiveness requires the blood sacrifice of a innocent. How would you know since you are a finite human judging an Infinite God? I can forgive without a blood sacrifice. Your god cannot, therefore you concept of god is not an infinite, but a small, petty, finite being. So, you reject the God you are referring to, the one you say does not exist.?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You are not the One who has been sinned against. You cannot set up the rules for forgiveness. Are you really saying that if I am wronged by someone I'm not allowed to forgive them?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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If you do someone wrong, are they obligated to forgive you?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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You are not the One who has been sinned against. You cannot set up the rules for forgiveness. Are you really saying that if I am wronged by someone I'm not allowed to forgive them? He didn't say that at all. Why would you think that? Perhaps he is saying that if YOU wrong some one, you cannot give THEM the rules by which you can be forgiven. You either obfuscate or perhaps you have a reading comprehension issue.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If you do someone wrong, are they obligated to forgive you? The question is not about obligation, it's about the ability to do so without the spilling of blood.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You are not the One who has been sinned against. You cannot set up the rules for forgiveness. Are you really saying that if I am wronged by someone I'm not allowed to forgive them? He didn't say that at all. Why would you think that? Perhaps he is saying that if YOU wrong some one, you cannot give THEM the rules by which you can be forgiven. You either obfuscate or perhaps you have a reading comprehension issue. Once again, you miss the whole point of the line of reasoning. Is the requirement to spill blood for forgiveness consistent with the concept of an "infinite" god? Is such a god even moral? Or, is this idea more consistent with something thought up by primitive, bronze age, goat herders?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Nah, but what about my question to you. If YOU wrong someone, can you dictate the rule about how, why and should they etc, forgive YOU?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire Outfitter
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TF and Rich both completely miss the point in their scramble to play Semantic Twister.
Forgiveness stands independently of any version or notion of 'God'. The definition of 'letting go of a debt' is as it is used in their Bible! (Perhaps read Jesus' own parable of the wicked servant)
Rich has also fallen back on the default apologetic position of those who can't intelligently defend their beliefs....'because he's God'.
This is the most facile and puerile 'argument' that the religious can come with and they use it to cover any and all reprehensible actions and unprovable assertions concerning their deity.
Of course, that same line of 'reasoning' can be used to 'prove' or excuse any other religions FSM, as well.
It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...
Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.
Stupidity has no average...
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