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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2 |
The 280ai is quite possibly the ultimate North American hunting cartridge. From the plains to the mountain range, and from western blacktails to the speed goats of the prairies, the northern whitetails, Utah bull elk, right up to the Alaskan moose, it is at home. It might not be a first choice for a 1000yd gong shooter, but as a practical hunting cartridge I can't think of a better all round cartridge. There are a few that would fit the bill, but when you average the trajectory, with the kinetic energy, felt recoil, bc and bullet selection, if you reload there isn't a better cartridge. If there is id love to hear what it is? RBO: How would you expect anyone to respond to this? Your post sounds like the add copy for some new Nosler cartridge in the back pages of Petersens' Hunting......You can't really expect me t take any of what you wrote seriously can you?  If you want a (partial) list of cartridges that will and have accomplished all the same things that you say the 280AI is suited for we can think about the 270, 7x57, 280, 284, 7SAUM,7mm WSM, 270 Weatherby,7mm Weatherby, 7mm Rem Mag , 7x61 S&H,7mm Dakota,28 Nosler, 30/06, 300 WSM, 300 H&H, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby,30 Nosler, etc etc. I'd toss in the 338's. They can do the same things but I always regarded them as specialized sluggers in a different category. I didn't include the 6.5's because the list would start to get ridiculous and you have to draw the line somewhere but obviously many of them are capable of taking exactly the same game you mentioned and at the same distances as well. An old now deceased acquaintance of mine killed a couple of grand slams and all the African plains game with a 264 Win Mag....so.......  If you want to talk about wildcats the list gets longer and the low pressure fire form loads for my 7mm Mashburn with 140 gr bullets easily equals the performance of the 280, and at less pressure,...... while leaving the 280 AI completely in the dust with anything from 140 to 180 gr bullets with full house Mashburn loads. That's from rifles with the same action length and a 24" barrel weighing 8 pounds and under. The 7mm Weatherby, 7 Rem Mag and STW will do the same things. Some of these cartridges are a bit slower in velocity than a 280 AI, some are a bit faster with the same or heavier bullets and have the case capacity to meet or exceed 280AI velocities very easily....and with heavier bullets to boot, but all kill the same animals in much the same fashion if you pick a good bullet and place it right. So...in all those categories you mentioned, I could just as easily apply a 30/06, 7 Rem Mag, 300 Winchester mag,270, 280, 7mm Mashburn or Weatherby..... or any of the others mentioned above and stack animals on top of one another from one end of the continent to the other. I could do the same thing with a 280 AI but there isn't anything particularly distinguishing about it except in the bowels of the imaginations of fans like you. Magnums are powder burners that offer no advantage at 600yds or less which I would guess 95% of hunters never reach out to in the first place, plus with a magnum you get a magnum recoil which i would guess subconsciously causes a flinch in most hunters taking any hunting advantage that magnum rifle might of had and throws it out the window. I never said the 280ai was the only rifle capable of being a killing machine out to 600yds, I said when you average all things it was the best in my opinion. The 280ai is a wildcat that is starting to make mainstream with manufacturers mass producing them, and now Nosler is now making factory brass and ammo for them. You know why? Because they realize the efficiency of this cartridge. What is a "better" all round cartridge and why? I don't want a generic list of all the cartridges in its class, give me a specific cartridge and the reason it's better. I think the 30-06 and the 270 are as close as you can come to being the perfect hunting rifle, with the 280rem taking the best of both worlds then PO Ackley came along and improved it, with even Parker admitting he thought the 280 was the most efficient of his creations. Get upset with my post, call me a crazy fan boy, but at least back it up with some with some facts and reasons. Like I said, flat like a 270 and hits like a 30-06 with no magnum recoil and factory chamberings. I don't need to hear about the cartridges that can do it, I want to hear about the ones that can do it better, and why. I would agree with Bob's post, as well as some of yours. But if you really want to get into it, when push comes to shove an argument can be made that the 7SAUM offers identical ballistic performance to the .280AI, being within less than 1gr of usable powder capacity, but can be had in shorter action lengths, lighter rifles (or equal-weight rifles with less action/stock weight and more barrel weight, contributing to a rifle package that settles easier in field positions), less chance of short stroking the action, etc. Of course this is meaningless in real-world application, but if we're cussing and discussing the theoretical minutia, the 7SAUM is "better" when looking at the sum total of how each chambering scores in all the categories you list. There are other cartridges that score as well or better than the .280AI when looking at the "sum total"- the 7SAUM is just one. Thanks for the input, it's exactly the type of response I was hoping to hear. The 7saum is a very comparable option to the 280ai imo, and the short action is a plus too I imagine. The only argument I would give to the AI would be magazine capacity over a magnum caliber. Short action vs magazine capacity. If you only need to take one shot, neither matters lol. Magazine capacity, although discussed a bunch, holds little actual value to me. If I think back to the number of times I've needed more than 3 shots in a BG hunting scenario, I can count them on two fingers on one of my hands, and one of those ended up being unnecessary as the first shot went through the heart. A shorter action, less weight, and a handier rifle, however, can be an advantage during the 99% of the time the rifle is in my hands, not just when I'm squeezing the trigger.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2 |
I agree with you on that to a certain extent, and not to mention it has a short action which makes for a lighter platform. If the maximum range for an average hunter in North America was 300yds I would choose the 7mm-08 all day long, but I think 500yds is a more realistic maximum range for the average hunter, for deer might be ok but I wouldn't try it on a moose or elk at that range with a 7mm-08. I think once you get out past the 500yd range you get into someone who is not your average hunter anymore, that's territory I'm not talking about. Good to know that you're assuming it doesn't work, with zero experience to back it up. What is the deciding factor when figuring out the cutoff range? How do you know when a shot is beyond the capable distance of the chambering/load? What load are you using in your .280AI? Thanks. I own a 7mm-08, I've also killed deer, moose and elk out past 500yds with my 280rem and 280ai and have recovered bullets from the animals, I have seen the lack of expansion from a ttsx at long range out of the 280 and I know that it would be worse out of my 7mm-08. Your assumption I have zero first hand experience with these cartridges is just that, an assumption, and false at that. I made no such assumption, sir. Based on your use of the words "might" and "wouldn't try it", I inferred that you've never shot or killed a BG animal beyond 500 yards with the 7-08. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yet you are suggesting that it wouldn't work well. Some of us that have experience in that sort of scenario with the 7-08 would beg to differ. Your fanatical-esque zeal for a chambering like the .280AI as a 500 or 600 yard rifle and your criticism for the 7-08 at anything over 300 yards, with no mention of bullets used, sends a message about your understanding of such things. At 500 meters a 7-08 shooting a 162AM arrives with more energy, more velocity, less wind drift, and more reliable expansion behaviour than a 140TTSX from a .280AI...
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2 |
The 280ai is quite possibly the ultimate North American hunting cartridge. From the plains to the mountain range, and from western blacktails to the speed goats of the prairies, the northern whitetails, Utah bull elk, right up to the Alaskan moose, it is at home. It might not be a first choice for a 1000yd gong shooter, but as a practical hunting cartridge I can't think of a better all round cartridge. There are a few that would fit the bill, but when you average the trajectory, with the kinetic energy, felt recoil, bc and bullet selection, if you reload there isn't a better cartridge. If there is id love to hear what it is? RBO: How would you expect anyone to respond to this? Your post sounds like the add copy for some new Nosler cartridge in the back pages of Petersens' Hunting......You can't really expect me t take any of what you wrote seriously can you? If you want a (partial) list of cartridges that will and have accomplished all the same things that you say the 280AI is suited for we can think about the 270, 7x57, 280, 284, 7SAUM,7mm WSM, 270 Weatherby,7mm Weatherby, 7mm Rem Mag , 7x61 S&H,7mm Dakota,28 Nosler, 30/06, 300 WSM, 300 H&H, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby,30 Nosler, etc etc. I'd toss in the 338's. They can do the same things but I always regarded them as specialized sluggers in a different category. I didn't include the 6.5's because the list would start to get ridiculous and you have to draw the line somewhere but obviously many of them are capable of taking exactly the same game you mentioned and at the same distances as well. An old now deceased acquaintance of mine killed a couple of grand slams and all the African plains game with a 264 Win Mag....so....... If you want to talk about wildcats the list gets longer and the low pressure fire form loads for my 7mm Mashburn with 140 gr bullets easily equals the performance of the 280, and at less pressure,...... while leaving the 280 AI completely in the dust with anything from 140 to 180 gr bullets with full house Mashburn loads. That's from rifles with the same action length and a 24" barrel weighing 8 pounds and under. The 7mm Weatherby, 7 Rem Mag and STW will do the same things. Some of these cartridges are a bit slower in velocity than a 280 AI, some are a bit faster with the same or heavier bullets and have the case capacity to meet or exceed 280AI velocities very easily....and with heavier bullets to boot, but all kill the same animals in much the same fashion if you pick a good bullet and place it right. So...in all those categories you mentioned, I could just as easily apply a 30/06, 7 Rem Mag, 300 Winchester mag,270, 280, 7mm Mashburn or Weatherby..... or any of the others mentioned above and stack animals on top of one another from one end of the continent to the other. I could do the same thing with a 280 AI but there isn't anything particularly distinguishing about it except in the bowels of the imaginations of fans like you. Magnums are powder burners that offer no advantage at 600yds or less which I would guess 95% of hunters never reach out to in the first place, plus with a magnum you get a magnum recoil which i would guess subconsciously causes a flinch in most hunters taking any hunting advantage that magnum rifle might of had and throws it out the window. I never said the 280ai was the only rifle capable of being a killing machine out to 600yds, I said when you average all things it was the best in my opinion. The 280ai is a wildcat that is starting to make mainstream with manufacturers mass producing them, and now Nosler is now making factory brass and ammo for them. You know why? Because they realize the efficiency of this cartridge. What is a "better" all round cartridge and why? I don't want a generic list of all the cartridges in its class, give me a specific cartridge and the reason it's better. I think the 30-06 and the 270 are as close as you can come to being the perfect hunting rifle, with the 280rem taking the best of both worlds then PO Ackley came along and improved it, with even Parker admitting he thought the 280 was the most efficient of his creations. Get upset with my post, call me a crazy fan boy, but at least back it up with some with some facts and reasons. Like I said, flat like a 270 and hits like a 30-06 with no magnum recoil and factory chamberings. I don't need to hear about the cartridges that can do it, I want to hear about the ones that can do it better, and why. I would agree with Bob's post, as well as some of yours. But if you really want to get into it, when push comes to shove an argument can be made that the 7SAUM offers identical ballistic performance to the .280AI, being within less than 1gr of usable powder capacity, but can be had in shorter action lengths, lighter rifles (or equal-weight rifles with less action/stock weight and more barrel weight, contributing to a rifle package that settles easier in field positions), less chance of short stroking the action, etc. Of course this is meaningless in real-world application, but if we're cussing and discussing the theoretical minutia, the 7SAUM is "better" when looking at the sum total of how each chambering scores in all the categories you list. There are other cartridges that score as well or better than the .280AI when looking at the "sum total"- the 7SAUM is just one. I'm not smart enough to figure out which is "best" but I do have a couple .280 AIs and a SAUM. For me, the cases are right in the sweet spot in terms of horsepower vs. recoil, as are 7 mm bullets. And Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn what the rest of you guys shoot. I wouldn't venture to say which is "best", either. But I couldn't resist playing "the devil's advocate" when a guy makes such wild and ludicrous claims 
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,107
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,107 |
The 280ai is quite possibly the ultimate North American hunting cartridge. From the plains to the mountain range, and from western blacktails to the speed goats of the prairies, the northern whitetails, Utah bull elk, right up to the Alaskan moose, it is at home. It might not be a first choice for a 1000yd gong shooter, but as a practical hunting cartridge I can't think of a better all round cartridge. There are a few that would fit the bill, but when you average the trajectory, with the kinetic energy, felt recoil, bc and bullet selection, if you reload there isn't a better cartridge. If there is id love to hear what it is? RBO: How would you expect anyone to respond to this? Your post sounds like the add copy for some new Nosler cartridge in the back pages of Petersens' Hunting......You can't really expect me t take any of what you wrote seriously can you? If you want a (partial) list of cartridges that will and have accomplished all the same things that you say the 280AI is suited for we can think about the 270, 7x57, 280, 284, 7SAUM,7mm WSM, 270 Weatherby,7mm Weatherby, 7mm Rem Mag , 7x61 S&H,7mm Dakota,28 Nosler, 30/06, 300 WSM, 300 H&H, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby,30 Nosler, etc etc. I'd toss in the 338's. They can do the same things but I always regarded them as specialized sluggers in a different category. I didn't include the 6.5's because the list would start to get ridiculous and you have to draw the line somewhere but obviously many of them are capable of taking exactly the same game you mentioned and at the same distances as well. An old now deceased acquaintance of mine killed a couple of grand slams and all the African plains game with a 264 Win Mag....so....... If you want to talk about wildcats the list gets longer and the low pressure fire form loads for my 7mm Mashburn with 140 gr bullets easily equals the performance of the 280, and at less pressure,...... while leaving the 280 AI completely in the dust with anything from 140 to 180 gr bullets with full house Mashburn loads. That's from rifles with the same action length and a 24" barrel weighing 8 pounds and under. The 7mm Weatherby, 7 Rem Mag and STW will do the same things. Some of these cartridges are a bit slower in velocity than a 280 AI, some are a bit faster with the same or heavier bullets and have the case capacity to meet or exceed 280AI velocities very easily....and with heavier bullets to boot, but all kill the same animals in much the same fashion if you pick a good bullet and place it right. So...in all those categories you mentioned, I could just as easily apply a 30/06, 7 Rem Mag, 300 Winchester mag,270, 280, 7mm Mashburn or Weatherby..... or any of the others mentioned above and stack animals on top of one another from one end of the continent to the other. I could do the same thing with a 280 AI but there isn't anything particularly distinguishing about it except in the bowels of the imaginations of fans like you. Magnums are powder burners that offer no advantage at 600yds or less which I would guess 95% of hunters never reach out to in the first place, plus with a magnum you get a magnum recoil which i would guess subconsciously causes a flinch in most hunters taking any hunting advantage that magnum rifle might of had and throws it out the window. I never said the 280ai was the only rifle capable of being a killing machine out to 600yds, I said when you average all things it was the best in my opinion. The 280ai is a wildcat that is starting to make mainstream with manufacturers mass producing them, and now Nosler is now making factory brass and ammo for them. You know why? Because they realize the efficiency of this cartridge. What is a "better" all round cartridge and why? I don't want a generic list of all the cartridges in its class, give me a specific cartridge and the reason it's better. I think the 30-06 and the 270 are as close as you can come to being the perfect hunting rifle, with the 280rem taking the best of both worlds then PO Ackley came along and improved it, with even Parker admitting he thought the 280 was the most efficient of his creations. Get upset with my post, call me a crazy fan boy, but at least back it up with some with some facts and reasons. Like I said, flat like a 270 and hits like a 30-06 with no magnum recoil and factory chamberings. I don't need to hear about the cartridges that can do it, I want to hear about the ones that can do it better, and why. I would agree with Bob's post, as well as some of yours. But if you really want to get into it, when push comes to shove an argument can be made that the 7SAUM offers identical ballistic performance to the .280AI, being within less than 1gr of usable powder capacity, but can be had in shorter action lengths, lighter rifles (or equal-weight rifles with less action/stock weight and more barrel weight, contributing to a rifle package that settles easier in field positions), less chance of short stroking the action, etc. Of course this is meaningless in real-world application, but if we're cussing and discussing the theoretical minutia, the 7SAUM is "better" when looking at the sum total of how each chambering scores in all the categories you list. There are other cartridges that score as well or better than the .280AI when looking at the "sum total"- the 7SAUM is just one. I'm not smart enough to figure out which is "best" but I do have a couple .280 AIs and a SAUM. For me, the cases are right in the sweet spot in terms of horsepower vs. recoil, as are 7 mm bullets.And Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn what the rest of you guys shoot. Exactly where I'm at. Though finding SAUM brass ain't quite as easy as finding brass that'll easily work for a 280/AI. Not that either are deal breakers.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 628
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 628 |
Jordan,
Magazine capacity means as much to me as action length, over the past couple decades it's meant less and less as I've developed the patience for shot placement and rarely put a bullet where I need a follow up shot, I was just suggesting they both have pluses and minuses.
Weight and balance mean much more to me, and for the most part the specific rifle model is a bigger determining factor than action length. I have a Kimber Montana in 280ai that balances better than the Kimber 300wsm I had, I couldn't tell the difference in mass weight but I could get a much better group freehand with the AI, I can only assume that was due to better balance as both were sub MOA off the bench
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 628
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 628 |
I agree with you on that to a certain extent, and not to mention it has a short action which makes for a lighter platform. If the maximum range for an average hunter in North America was 300yds I would choose the 7mm-08 all day long, but I think 500yds is a more realistic maximum range for the average hunter, for deer might be ok but I wouldn't try it on a moose or elk at that range with a 7mm-08. I think once you get out past the 500yd range you get into someone who is not your average hunter anymore, that's territory I'm not talking about. Good to know that you're assuming it doesn't work, with zero experience to back it up. What is the deciding factor when figuring out the cutoff range? How do you know when a shot is beyond the capable distance of the chambering/load? What load are you using in your .280AI? Thanks. I own a 7mm-08, I've also killed deer, moose and elk out past 500yds with my 280rem and 280ai and have recovered bullets from the animals, I have seen the lack of expansion from a ttsx at long range out of the 280 and I know that it would be worse out of my 7mm-08. Your assumption I have zero first hand experience with these cartridges is just that, an assumption, and false at that. I made no such assumption, sir. Based on your use of the words "might" and "wouldn't try it", I inferred that you've never shot or killed a BG animal beyond 500 yards with the 7-08. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yet you are suggesting that it wouldn't work well. Some of us that have experience in that sort of scenario with the 7-08 would beg to differ. Your fanatical-esque zeal for a chambering like the .280AI as a 500 or 600 yard rifle and your criticism for the 7-08 at anything over 300 yards, with no mention of bullets used, sends a message about your understanding of such things. At 500 meters a 7-08 shooting a 162AM arrives with more energy, more velocity, less wind drift, and more reliable expansion behaviour than a 140TTSX from a .280AI... Can you tell me the velocity energy and wind drift of both the 162amax out of the 7-08, I assume it would be from a 22" bbl and the velocity, energy, and wind drift from the 140gr tax in a 280ai which I assume would be from a 24" bbl?
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,032 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,032 Likes: 4 |
Yep, it sure is boring. Boring that it is so easy to load for, and boring that every damn shot goes in the same place ![[Linked Image]](http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h107/kenscline/IMGP2561_zpszxpncpda.jpg)
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
I agree with you on that to a certain extent, and not to mention it has a short action which makes for a lighter platform. If the maximum range for an average hunter in North America was 300yds I would choose the 7mm-08 all day long, but I think 500yds is a more realistic maximum range for the average hunter, for deer might be ok but I wouldn't try it on a moose or elk at that range with a 7mm-08. I think once you get out past the 500yd range you get into someone who is not your average hunter anymore, that's territory I'm not talking about. Good to know that you're assuming it doesn't work, with zero experience to back it up. What is the deciding factor when figuring out the cutoff range? How do you know when a shot is beyond the capable distance of the chambering/load? What load are you using in your .280AI? Thanks. I own a 7mm-08, I've also killed deer, moose and elk out past 500yds with my 280rem and 280ai and have recovered bullets from the animals, I have seen the lack of expansion from a ttsx at long range out of the 280 and I know that it would be worse out of my 7mm-08. Your assumption I have zero first hand experience with these cartridges is just that, an assumption, and false at that. I made no such assumption, sir. Based on your use of the words "might" and "wouldn't try it", I inferred that you've never shot or killed a BG animal beyond 500 yards with the 7-08. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yet you are suggesting that it wouldn't work well. Some of us that have experience in that sort of scenario with the 7-08 would beg to differ. Your fanatical-esque zeal for a chambering like the .280AI as a 500 or 600 yard rifle and your criticism for the 7-08 at anything over 300 yards, with no mention of bullets used, sends a message about your understanding of such things. At 500 meters a 7-08 shooting a 162AM arrives with more energy, more velocity, less wind drift, and more reliable expansion behaviour than a 140TTSX from a .280AI... Can you tell me the velocity energy and wind drift of both the 162amax out of the 7-08, I assume it would be from a 22" bbl and the velocity, energy, and wind drift from the 140gr tax in a 280ai which I assume would be from a 24" bbl? Maybe throw in a 129 LRX for schits and giggles too. 3,100 in a 22" tube.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
Yep, it sure is boring. Boring that it is so easy to load for, and boring that every damn shot goes in the same place That's the best shooting Montana on the planet.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
The 280ai is quite possibly the ultimate North American hunting cartridge. From the plains to the mountain range, and from western blacktails to the speed goats of the prairies, the northern whitetails, Utah bull elk, right up to the Alaskan moose, it is at home. It might not be a first choice for a 1000yd gong shooter, but as a practical hunting cartridge I can't think of a better all round cartridge. There are a few that would fit the bill, but when you average the trajectory, with the kinetic energy, felt recoil, bc and bullet selection, if you reload there isn't a better cartridge. If there is id love to hear what it is? RBO: How would you expect anyone to respond to this? Your post sounds like the add copy for some new Nosler cartridge in the back pages of Petersens' Hunting......You can't really expect me t take any of what you wrote seriously can you? If you want a (partial) list of cartridges that will and have accomplished all the same things that you say the 280AI is suited for we can think about the 270, 7x57, 280, 284, 7SAUM,7mm WSM, 270 Weatherby,7mm Weatherby, 7mm Rem Mag , 7x61 S&H,7mm Dakota,28 Nosler, 30/06, 300 WSM, 300 H&H, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby,30 Nosler, etc etc. I'd toss in the 338's. They can do the same things but I always regarded them as specialized sluggers in a different category. I didn't include the 6.5's because the list would start to get ridiculous and you have to draw the line somewhere but obviously many of them are capable of taking exactly the same game you mentioned and at the same distances as well. An old now deceased acquaintance of mine killed a couple of grand slams and all the African plains game with a 264 Win Mag....so....... If you want to talk about wildcats the list gets longer and the low pressure fire form loads for my 7mm Mashburn with 140 gr bullets easily equals the performance of the 280, and at less pressure,...... while leaving the 280 AI completely in the dust with anything from 140 to 180 gr bullets with full house Mashburn loads. That's from rifles with the same action length and a 24" barrel weighing 8 pounds and under. The 7mm Weatherby, 7 Rem Mag and STW will do the same things. Some of these cartridges are a bit slower in velocity than a 280 AI, some are a bit faster with the same or heavier bullets and have the case capacity to meet or exceed 280AI velocities very easily....and with heavier bullets to boot, but all kill the same animals in much the same fashion if you pick a good bullet and place it right. So...in all those categories you mentioned, I could just as easily apply a 30/06, 7 Rem Mag, 300 Winchester mag,270, 280, 7mm Mashburn or Weatherby..... or any of the others mentioned above and stack animals on top of one another from one end of the continent to the other. I could do the same thing with a 280 AI but there isn't anything particularly distinguishing about it except in the bowels of the imaginations of fans like you. Magnums are powder burners that offer no advantage at 600yds or less which I would guess 95% of hunters never reach out to in the first place, plus with a magnum you get a magnum recoil which i would guess subconsciously causes a flinch in most hunters taking any hunting advantage that magnum rifle might of had and throws it out the window. I never said the 280ai was the only rifle capable of being a killing machine out to 600yds, I said when you average all things it was the best in my opinion. The 280ai is a wildcat that is starting to make mainstream with manufacturers mass producing them, and now Nosler is now making factory brass and ammo for them. You know why? Because they realize the efficiency of this cartridge. What is a "better" all round cartridge and why? I don't want a generic list of all the cartridges in its class, give me a specific cartridge and the reason it's better. I think the 30-06 and the 270 are as close as you can come to being the perfect hunting rifle, with the 280rem taking the best of both worlds then PO Ackley came along and improved it, with even Parker admitting he thought the 280 was the most efficient of his creations. Get upset with my post, call me a crazy fan boy, but at least back it up with some with some facts and reasons. Like I said, flat like a 270 and hits like a 30-06 with no magnum recoil and factory chamberings. I don't need to hear about the cartridges that can do it, I want to hear about the ones that can do it better, and why. How do you know all this? have you hunted with and killed much game with all those cartridges,especially the magnums? Or are you just repeating what you have read? Im not upset with your post; I just think it's ridiculous.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2 |
I agree with you on that to a certain extent, and not to mention it has a short action which makes for a lighter platform. If the maximum range for an average hunter in North America was 300yds I would choose the 7mm-08 all day long, but I think 500yds is a more realistic maximum range for the average hunter, for deer might be ok but I wouldn't try it on a moose or elk at that range with a 7mm-08. I think once you get out past the 500yd range you get into someone who is not your average hunter anymore, that's territory I'm not talking about. Good to know that you're assuming it doesn't work, with zero experience to back it up. What is the deciding factor when figuring out the cutoff range? How do you know when a shot is beyond the capable distance of the chambering/load? What load are you using in your .280AI? Thanks. I own a 7mm-08, I've also killed deer, moose and elk out past 500yds with my 280rem and 280ai and have recovered bullets from the animals, I have seen the lack of expansion from a ttsx at long range out of the 280 and I know that it would be worse out of my 7mm-08. Your assumption I have zero first hand experience with these cartridges is just that, an assumption, and false at that. I made no such assumption, sir. Based on your use of the words "might" and "wouldn't try it", I inferred that you've never shot or killed a BG animal beyond 500 yards with the 7-08. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yet you are suggesting that it wouldn't work well. Some of us that have experience in that sort of scenario with the 7-08 would beg to differ. Your fanatical-esque zeal for a chambering like the .280AI as a 500 or 600 yard rifle and your criticism for the 7-08 at anything over 300 yards, with no mention of bullets used, sends a message about your understanding of such things. At 500 meters a 7-08 shooting a 162AM arrives with more energy, more velocity, less wind drift, and more reliable expansion behaviour than a 140TTSX from a .280AI... Can you tell me the velocity energy and wind drift of both the 162amax out of the 7-08, I assume it would be from a 22" bbl and the velocity, energy, and wind drift from the 140gr tax in a 280ai which I assume would be from a 24" bbl? Sure. I used a hot but not red-lined load in each- 2700 fps for the 7-08/162 and 3100 fps for the .280AI/140, and a 22" barrel for both to keep the comparison valid. We could push either load 50-75 fps harder if we stepped on the gas. Of course a guy could put a 24" barrel on either one if he wanted and gain about the same. There will be minor variations in calculations based on individual atmospheric differences, etc, but I used the same input factors for both loads... Using SA conditions and 10mph full value wind, at 500 meters the 162AM from the 7-08 has 1.0 mil of wind drift, 1955 fps of velocity, and 1372 ft-lbs of energy. The .280AI/140 has 1.3 mils of wind drift, 1945 fps of velocity, and 1174 ft-lbs of energy remaining. Even if we give the .280AI an unfair advantage with a 24" barrel and say 3175 fps muzzle velocity, at the 500 meter line it drifts 1.2 mils in the wind (0.2 mil more than the 162), has 2002 fps remaining (47 fps more than the 162), and 1243 ft-lbs of energy (129 ft-lbs less than the 162).
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2 |
Maybe throw in a 129 LRX for schits and giggles too. 3,100 in a 22" tube. Found it. The .277" 129LRX must be pretty new- it doesn't show up in Ballistic:AE or QL. Wind drift - 1.1 mil Remaining vel - 2058 fps Remaining energy - 1210 ft-lbs
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2 |
Yep, it sure is boring. Boring that it is so easy to load for, and boring that every damn shot goes in the same place That's the best shooting Montana on the planet. There is the odd one that shoots ![[Linked Image]](http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/7WSM/null_zps3892fd3f.png)
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2 |
The 280ai is quite possibly the ultimate North American hunting cartridge. From the plains to the mountain range, and from western blacktails to the speed goats of the prairies, the northern whitetails, Utah bull elk, right up to the Alaskan moose, it is at home. It might not be a first choice for a 1000yd gong shooter, but as a practical hunting cartridge I can't think of a better all round cartridge. There are a few that would fit the bill, but when you average the trajectory, with the kinetic energy, felt recoil, bc and bullet selection, if you reload there isn't a better cartridge. If there is id love to hear what it is? RBO: How would you expect anyone to respond to this? Your post sounds like the add copy for some new Nosler cartridge in the back pages of Petersens' Hunting......You can't really expect me t take any of what you wrote seriously can you? If you want a (partial) list of cartridges that will and have accomplished all the same things that you say the 280AI is suited for we can think about the 270, 7x57, 280, 284, 7SAUM,7mm WSM, 270 Weatherby,7mm Weatherby, 7mm Rem Mag , 7x61 S&H,7mm Dakota,28 Nosler, 30/06, 300 WSM, 300 H&H, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby,30 Nosler, etc etc. I'd toss in the 338's. They can do the same things but I always regarded them as specialized sluggers in a different category. I didn't include the 6.5's because the list would start to get ridiculous and you have to draw the line somewhere but obviously many of them are capable of taking exactly the same game you mentioned and at the same distances as well. An old now deceased acquaintance of mine killed a couple of grand slams and all the African plains game with a 264 Win Mag....so....... If you want to talk about wildcats the list gets longer and the low pressure fire form loads for my 7mm Mashburn with 140 gr bullets easily equals the performance of the 280, and at less pressure,...... while leaving the 280 AI completely in the dust with anything from 140 to 180 gr bullets with full house Mashburn loads. That's from rifles with the same action length and a 24" barrel weighing 8 pounds and under. The 7mm Weatherby, 7 Rem Mag and STW will do the same things. Some of these cartridges are a bit slower in velocity than a 280 AI, some are a bit faster with the same or heavier bullets and have the case capacity to meet or exceed 280AI velocities very easily....and with heavier bullets to boot, but all kill the same animals in much the same fashion if you pick a good bullet and place it right. So...in all those categories you mentioned, I could just as easily apply a 30/06, 7 Rem Mag, 300 Winchester mag,270, 280, 7mm Mashburn or Weatherby..... or any of the others mentioned above and stack animals on top of one another from one end of the continent to the other. I could do the same thing with a 280 AI but there isn't anything particularly distinguishing about it except in the bowels of the imaginations of fans like you. Magnums are powder burners that offer no advantage at 600yds or less which I would guess 95% of hunters never reach out to in the first place, plus with a magnum you get a magnum recoil which i would guess subconsciously causes a flinch in most hunters taking any hunting advantage that magnum rifle might of had and throws it out the window. I never said the 280ai was the only rifle capable of being a killing machine out to 600yds, I said when you average all things it was the best in my opinion. The 280ai is a wildcat that is starting to make mainstream with manufacturers mass producing them, and now Nosler is now making factory brass and ammo for them. You know why? Because they realize the efficiency of this cartridge. What is a "better" all round cartridge and why? I don't want a generic list of all the cartridges in its class, give me a specific cartridge and the reason it's better. I think the 30-06 and the 270 are as close as you can come to being the perfect hunting rifle, with the 280rem taking the best of both worlds then PO Ackley came along and improved it, with even Parker admitting he thought the 280 was the most efficient of his creations. Get upset with my post, call me a crazy fan boy, but at least back it up with some with some facts and reasons. Like I said, flat like a 270 and hits like a 30-06 with no magnum recoil and factory chamberings. I don't need to hear about the cartridges that can do it, I want to hear about the ones that can do it better, and why. How do you know all this? have you hunted with and killed much game with all those cartridges,especially the magnums? Or are you just repeating what you have read? Im not upset with your post; I just think it's ridiculous. Bob, Respectfully, the 7SAUM is a MAGNUM, so you ought to know that it kicks too hard, booms too loud, and burns too much powder to be in the same league as the .280AI. I would have thought that a guy like you would know such things...
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
The 280ai is quite possibly the ultimate North American hunting cartridge. From the plains to the mountain range, and from western blacktails to the speed goats of the prairies, the northern whitetails, Utah bull elk, right up to the Alaskan moose, it is at home. It might not be a first choice for a 1000yd gong shooter, but as a practical hunting cartridge I can't think of a better all round cartridge. There are a few that would fit the bill, but when you average the trajectory, with the kinetic energy, felt recoil, bc and bullet selection, if you reload there isn't a better cartridge. If there is id love to hear what it is? RBO: How would you expect anyone to respond to this? Your post sounds like the add copy for some new Nosler cartridge in the back pages of Petersens' Hunting......You can't really expect me t take any of what you wrote seriously can you? If you want a (partial) list of cartridges that will and have accomplished all the same things that you say the 280AI is suited for we can think about the 270, 7x57, 280, 284, 7SAUM,7mm WSM, 270 Weatherby,7mm Weatherby, 7mm Rem Mag , 7x61 S&H,7mm Dakota,28 Nosler, 30/06, 300 WSM, 300 H&H, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby,30 Nosler, etc etc. I'd toss in the 338's. They can do the same things but I always regarded them as specialized sluggers in a different category. I didn't include the 6.5's because the list would start to get ridiculous and you have to draw the line somewhere but obviously many of them are capable of taking exactly the same game you mentioned and at the same distances as well. An old now deceased acquaintance of mine killed a couple of grand slams and all the African plains game with a 264 Win Mag....so....... If you want to talk about wildcats the list gets longer and the low pressure fire form loads for my 7mm Mashburn with 140 gr bullets easily equals the performance of the 280, and at less pressure,...... while leaving the 280 AI completely in the dust with anything from 140 to 180 gr bullets with full house Mashburn loads. That's from rifles with the same action length and a 24" barrel weighing 8 pounds and under. The 7mm Weatherby, 7 Rem Mag and STW will do the same things. Some of these cartridges are a bit slower in velocity than a 280 AI, some are a bit faster with the same or heavier bullets and have the case capacity to meet or exceed 280AI velocities very easily....and with heavier bullets to boot, but all kill the same animals in much the same fashion if you pick a good bullet and place it right. So...in all those categories you mentioned, I could just as easily apply a 30/06, 7 Rem Mag, 300 Winchester mag,270, 280, 7mm Mashburn or Weatherby..... or any of the others mentioned above and stack animals on top of one another from one end of the continent to the other. I could do the same thing with a 280 AI but there isn't anything particularly distinguishing about it except in the bowels of the imaginations of fans like you. Magnums are powder burners that offer no advantage at 600yds or less which I would guess 95% of hunters never reach out to in the first place, plus with a magnum you get a magnum recoil which i would guess subconsciously causes a flinch in most hunters taking any hunting advantage that magnum rifle might of had and throws it out the window. I never said the 280ai was the only rifle capable of being a killing machine out to 600yds, I said when you average all things it was the best in my opinion. The 280ai is a wildcat that is starting to make mainstream with manufacturers mass producing them, and now Nosler is now making factory brass and ammo for them. You know why? Because they realize the efficiency of this cartridge. What is a "better" all round cartridge and why? I don't want a generic list of all the cartridges in its class, give me a specific cartridge and the reason it's better. I think the 30-06 and the 270 are as close as you can come to being the perfect hunting rifle, with the 280rem taking the best of both worlds then PO Ackley came along and improved it, with even Parker admitting he thought the 280 was the most efficient of his creations. Get upset with my post, call me a crazy fan boy, but at least back it up with some with some facts and reasons. Like I said, flat like a 270 and hits like a 30-06 with no magnum recoil and factory chamberings. I don't need to hear about the cartridges that can do it, I want to hear about the ones that can do it better, and why. How do you know all this? have you hunted with and killed much game with all those cartridges,especially the magnums? Or are you just repeating what you have read? Im not upset with your post; I just think it's ridiculous. Bob, Respectfully, the 7SAUM is a MAGNUM, so you ought to know that it kicks too hard, booms too loud, and burns too much powder to be in the same league as the .280AI. I would have thought that a guy like you would know such things... Jordan please forgive me....I lost my head! Those dreaded magnums are impossible to shoot......  So the 280 AI "Shoots as flat as a 270 but hits like a 3006"......gee where have I heard that line before ? I remember..........Someone wrote it about the 7 mm Remington Magnum back in 1962! These 280AI boys need to get a life...they're all 40 - 50 years behind the times. There's been better mousetraps for 4 decades LOL!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,927 |
Maybe throw in a 129 LRX for schits and giggles too. 3,100 in a 22" tube. Found it. The .277" 129LRX must be pretty new- it doesn't show up in Ballistic:AE or QL. Wind drift - 1.1 mil Remaining vel - 2058 fps Remaining energy - 1210 ft-lbs So it "smokes" a 140 TTSX in a 280AI?
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2 |
Not really. It's short on energy, the most important factor If we were to throw a 145 LRX in the .280AI at 3100 fps, it'd shake out like this: Drift - 1.0 mil Vel - 2101 fps Energy - 1419 ft-lbs Bullets matter. Seems I've heard that before 
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,525 Likes: 2 |
Jordan please forgive me....I lost my head! Those dreaded magnums are impossible to shoot...... So the 280 AI "Shoots as flat as a 270 but hits like a 3006"......gee where have I heard that line before ? I remember..........Someone wrote it about the 7 mm Remington Magnum back in 1962! These 280AI boys need to get a life...they're all 40 - 50 years behind the times. There's been better mousetraps for 4 decades LOL! Forgiveness will take time, Bob. You've committed a near unpardonable offense against the AI fraternity...
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 628
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 628 |
Jordan,
Speaking of giving unfair advantages you've got the 7-08 lined up with an optimum load and comparing it to a 280ai with an average load. If all things are equal, the 280ai will out preform the 7-08
Fwiw, I never said the 7-08 wouldn't work out past 300yds, go re-read my post and if you still don't understand what I wrote, let me know and I will explain it to you.
You were doing ok with your argument that the 7rsaum was a good challenger to the 280ai, but it seems you got a little too heavy since then.
Last edited by RBO; 10/10/16.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,648 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,648 Likes: 1 |
RBO, you are in over your head....
I'd stop now...
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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