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Originally Posted by Robert_White
Geronimo was a good Methodist!

Late one afternoon when returning from town we were met by a few women and children who told us that Mexican troops from some other town had attacked our camp, killed all the warriors of the guard, captured all our ponies, secured our arms, destroyed our supplies, and killed many of our women and children...when all were counted, I found that my aged mother, my young wife, and my three small children were among the slain. There were no lights in camp, so without being noticed I silently turned away and stood by the river. How long I stood there I do not know, but when I saw the warriors arranging for a council I took my place...
"I had no weapon, nor did I hardly wish to fight, neither did I contemplate recovering the bodies of my loved ones, for that was forbidden. I did not pray, nor did I resolve to do anything in particular, for I had no purpose left...I was never again contented in our quiet home. True, I could visit my father's grave, but I had vowed vengeance upon the Mexican troopers who had wronged me, and whenever I came near his grave or saw anything to remind me of former happy days my heart would ache for revenge upon Mexico..."
That was the beginning of the violent career of Geronimo, one of the most feared Indian fighters of the old West. His people decided to go on the warpath and sent him to woo the support of other tribes, which he did. About a year later, the Apache and their allies encountered the Mexicans. They chose Geronimo to lead them.
"I was no chief and never had been, but because I had been more deeply wronged than others, this honor was conferred upon me, and I resolved to prove worthy of the trust. I arranged the Indians in a hollow circle near the river, and the Mexicans drew their infantry up in two lines, with the cavalry in reserve. We were in the timber, and they advanced until within about four hundred yards, when they halted and opened fire. Soon I led a charge against them, at the same time sending some braves to attack the rear. In all the battle I thought of my murdered mother, wife, and babies--of my father's grave and my vow of vengeance, and I fought with fury. Many fell by my hand, and constantly I led the advance. Many braves were killed..."
Geronimo harassed the Southwest for many years, but was captured in 1886. He escaped and renewed his raids. It took the U.S. army eighteen months to nab him. He remained in military custody until his death in 1909, but was allowed to raise stock.
On this day, July 1, 1903, the Apache fighter was baptized into the Methodist Church in Medicine Creek, Oklahoma Territory. "Believing that in a wise way it is good to go to church, and that associating with Christians would improve my character, I have adopted the Christian religion...I am not ashamed to be a Christian...I have advised all of my people who are not Christians, to study that religion, because it seems to me the best religion in enabling one to live right."
Was he really born again into Christ by the Holy Spirit as Methodists teach? If so, Geronimo "backslid," for he soon drifted back into alcoholism and out of church fellowship. However, he was not completely hardened. A sense of dissatisfaction with his course made him ask later if he could be reunited with the church; and he was


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This is probably the pool where Geronimo was buried with Christ in baptism.




Medicine Creek is one of Oklahoma's popular trout streams.



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"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee

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I have several books regarding Geronimo, that era in the old southwest, and the Apache wars in general. They are very informative and interesting.

The Geronimo Campaign, by Odie B. Faulk, © 1969 Oxford University Press.

Life Among The Apaches, 1850-1868
, by John C. Cremony, Original copyright by Cremony in 1868, reprintd by The Rio Grande Press, © 1970.

The Arizona Story, (Compiled And Edited From Original Newspaper Sources), Edited by Joseph Miller, ©1952, Hastings House Publs.

Lots of very interesting stories in those three books about "how it was" with the Apaches in the old southwest U.S.

L.W.

EDIT:
Quote
86TheCat - " ... These atrocities were not committed by one or two Indian tribes. They were committed by tribes like the Apaches, Sioux, Comanches, Araphaoes, Cheyennes, Blackfoot, Lakotas, Shoshones, Bannocks, Mojaves, Yavapais, Crow, Kiowas, Kickapoos, Utes, and Chiricahuas."



That is very true.

L.W.

Last edited by Leanwolf; 10/10/16.

"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
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Originally Posted by 86thecat
A half notch above a pack of rabid wolves.


ahhhhh, the myth of the 'noble red man'. My family had a long and bitter ax to grind with Indians. One of my ancestors was killed in VA, in the 1790s, in Burkes Garden, by Indians.
My Great, Great, Great Grandfather was a soldier in the punitive Cherokee Campaign of 1776.


Sam......

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My father was born on a homestead and got as far as 8th grade before he started working on ranches to stay alive. He worked for meals for over 10 years to get through the depression and at 31 was drafted into WWII.

He was honorably discharged in November of 1945 and came home on a bus with no ticker tape parade or PTSD. He found a job, went to work and went on with his life after fighting an enemy he had never known existed.

He fought people he never met for people he never met and asked for nothing in return. After all that he never buried his sorrows in a bottle and never asked for anything he didn't deserve. Geronimo could have learned something from my father.


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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As anyone at the time would have told ya, Geronimo was a fighter, not a Chief, and lots of the Apaches that made it possible to hunt him down had no use for the guy.

If we gotta have an Indian in the "Ten Greatest" list, I'm gonna nominate the Shawnee Tecumseh, upon whom no taint of cruelty seems to have fallen and of whom even his enemies thought him great.

Birdwatcher


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Originally Posted by Birdwatcher

If we gotta have an Indian in the "Ten Greatest" list, I'm gonna nominate the Shawnee Tecumseh, upon whom no taint of cruelty seems to have fallen and of whom even his enemies thought him great.

Birdwatcher


I'll take Cochise, but I like Geronimo just fine too.

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Wondered if anyone would bring up "Panther Passes Across". Thanks Birdy!

Least he died in battle! I don't know if true, but I read that after he learned to read English , Hamlet was his favorite story! A bit of irony in that.


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Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

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Tecumseh was a visionary and he crossed paths with lots of great men. Simon Kenton comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by JoeBob
Tecumseh was a visionary and he crossed paths with lots of great men. Simon Kenton comes to mind.


And the greatest, most useful president we EVER had W H Harrison. Who had the decency to contract pneumonia at his inauguration and die, what? 6, 8 weeks later!!! laugh


Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester

"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."

WS

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Originally Posted by watch4bear
Didn't he die drunk in back of a ford?


Closest to that was Chato.

Chato had originally ridden and raided with Geronimo when his wife and child were captured by Mexican soldiers. The children were adopted by a comfortably well-off Mexican family in Chihuahua, Chato's wife became their maid so as to be near to her children.

Chato then became a scout for the US Army hoping that, in return for his service, the Army could be instrumental in getting his family back. It was Chato who led the Army detachment to Geronimo's final hideout in 1886.

Subsequent to that, attempts were made to retrieve his family from captivity but Chato was stunned to learn that she preferred to remain in Mexico so that her children could continue their lives where they were.

Maybe she had a point, after being presented with a silver medal by President Cleveland in Washington DC, Chato was promptly shipped off to the death camp at Ft Marion Florida (it weren't intended as a death camp per se, but this is where the deaths from disease began) along with Geronimo and his band.

Thirty seven years later he was allowed to return to the Southwest, taking up residence on the Mescalero reservation, I am not aware that he ever remarried.

He died in a car wreck in 1933 when his Model T ran off of the road. By then he was eighty years of age. He did become an alcholic in his later years.

Birdwatcher


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Originally Posted by BFD
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher

If we gotta have an Indian in the "Ten Greatest" list, I'm gonna nominate the Shawnee Tecumseh, upon whom no taint of cruelty seems to have fallen and of whom even his enemies thought him great.

Birdwatcher


I'll take Cochise, but I like Geronimo just fine too.


My own favorite is Crow Flies High, a Mandan Indian. All he did is lead the remnants of the Mandans a generation after the horrific smallpox epidemic of 1837. He preserved their lives, avoiding conflict with anyone and sticking as much to the old life way as possible.

In the 1870's when the enroaching White population finally made the old ways of life impossible, Crow-Flies-High simply led them on to the reservation. Nobody died violently, this is prob'ly why must of us have never heard of the guy.

Birdwatcher


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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How about Rich Joe Vann, Cherokee Chief, and at the time of his death one of the richest men in America. His father, Crazy James, might merit the honor having built the fortune, but before he died in a bar room brawl he did stuff like burn offending slaves at the stake to keep the rest in line.

Rich Joe went out with a bang. He was drunk and on one of his fleet of paddle wheelers when they got into a race with a boat belonging to a rival during a social occasion on the Joe's boat.

Joe had the safety valve on the boiler tied down in an effort to built more steam. When he began to throw whole greasy roast pig carcasses intended for the feast into the flames the stoker, a free Black man, dove overboard.

Moments later the boiler blew up, resulting in the death of everyone on board. Most of Joe's body was never found, but an arm in a fancy silk shirt sleeve was recovered hanging in a tree about 400 yards from the site of the explosion. The diamond ring it wore identified it as Joe's.

Birdwatcher


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Fugg the tribes. The biggest crime was that they weren't all subjugated and made Americans.

The fact we left sovereign nations allowed to operate within our borders is a black eye on our forefathers that we all still pay for.


“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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I agree with you MM.
The myth of the noble savage lives on. I have pioneer ancestors that fought the Indians and I doubt they would share the views of some here.

War should be fought to unconditional surrender, to the victor goes the spoils.

Look at where we are after all of the wars since the Korean; nothing is settled and the wounds fester generation after generation.

Then look at our good relations (before Obama) with our once enemies Japan and Germany, who surrendered to us unconditionally.

Geronimo one of the 10 greatest Americans? I don't think so.


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Gee,

I thought the 10 greatest ever Americans ever are/were:

1. Ingwe
2. DeFlave
3. Stick
4. George Washington
5. Thomas Jefferson
6. Jefferson Davis
7. Robert E. Lee
8. Thomas ( Stonewall ) Jackson
9. Jeb Stuart
10. Scott F.

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You forgot Ronnie


Let's Go Brandon! FJB
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I also didn't have room for Kaywoody....and a host of other great campfire guys...

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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
He is lucky to have done any Buffalo hunting post 1880'ish. White man kills for fun.


Another great myth on the demise of the buffalo.


Ahha, Jorge might have the most correct answer in this topic, must of read some real primary source history that was more concerned with the truth before the PC world came, rather than offending anyone but white men. You know, like the the fairy tales in every textbook.

Here's a few more myths;

The smallpox blankets we passed around - never even heard of till the 1960s.

Or that Geronamo was anything more than a horse thief that was in it for the cash. Stole horses from the wĥites sold 'em for cash in Mexico, Stole horses from the Mexicans, sold 'em for cash in America, Even stole horses from the Apache and got kicked off the rez for it. Not just a few times but over and over his whole career. Wasn't considered a chief by his tribe or the army even until he retired, just the leader of a band of horse thieves, some of whom weren't even Apache.


There are lots of good primary sources, but one that comes to mind without having to look a lot of stuff up this morning is "I, Tom Horn", an Autobiography, by another guy who has plenty of myths on him. He btw was the primary translator and scout for the army for years chasing Geronimo, the one Geronimo preferred to talk to, before he moved into my neck of the woods and got hung for it.


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Good to see you posting again Jacques.

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Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Good to see you posting again Jacques.

Heya Ethan long time no see. I had a nice vacation.


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