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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,938 Likes: 11 |
... If the team or teams that won the conference is passed over in favor of a team or teams that they beat and did not qualify for the conference championship game, then the team or teams that did not got it done on the field of play is subjective as to "best" and makes all games meaningless. I agree whole-heartedly, and I also say that the same applies to any loss - a loss means that there is a team out there that is better than the team that lost; only an undefeated team has any claim to being a NATIONAL CHAMPION.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,993 Likes: 7 |
... If the team or teams that won the conference is passed over in favor of a team or teams that they beat and did not qualify for the conference championship game, then the team or teams that did not got it done on the field of play is subjective as to "best" and makes all games meaningless. I agree whole-heartedly, and I also say that the same applies to any loss - a loss means that there is a team out there that is better than the team that lost; only an undefeated team has any claim to being a NATIONAL CHAMPION. Not saying a team has to be undefeated, but needs to at least win their conference.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,243 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,243 Likes: 2 |
Isn't the primary purpose of college sports to be there as a vehicle for wagering?
I heard some sports talk guys last week who were advocating for an 8 team D1 Football play-off. The 8 teams would be the winners of the Power-5 Conferences and the 3 highest ranked teams that didn't win their conferences. It seemed like a good idea to me. Where do I place my bet?
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,936
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,936 |
Why do they not just create 8 conferences.
Two divisions in each conference.
Conference championships would constitute the first round of they playoffs, with 16 teams.
I know, big business and money.
Penn state earned it on the field. Period. That is what should count, but unfortunately it does not.
Arcus Venator
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2002
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... If the team or teams that won the conference is passed over in favor of a team or teams that they beat and did not qualify for the conference championship game, then the team or teams that did not got it done on the field of play is subjective as to "best" and makes all games meaningless. I agree whole-heartedly, and I also say that the same applies to any loss - a loss means that there is a team out there that is better than the team that lost; only an undefeated team has any claim to being a NATIONAL CHAMPION. You are arguing that a team that finished the regular season 10-2 (Penn State) should go to the playoff over a team that finished 11-1 (Ohio State). You can't have it both ways. Oh, BTW, your undefeated team "logic" means that the #2 team should be Western Michigan over Ohio State. WM has had a terrific season, but they simply haven't faced the quality of opposition for a playoff berth. Their most impressive opponents were Northwestern and Illinois. Not shabby, but not better than Ohio State either. It will be very interesting to see how WM does in a major bowl game, possibly against Wisconsin.
Last edited by natman; 12/04/16.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,993 Likes: 7 |
... If the team or teams that won the conference is passed over in favor of a team or teams that they beat and did not qualify for the conference championship game, then the team or teams that did not got it done on the field of play is subjective as to "best" and makes all games meaningless. I agree whole-heartedly, and I also say that the same applies to any loss - a loss means that there is a team out there that is better than the team that lost; only an undefeated team has any claim to being a NATIONAL CHAMPION. Do you realize that you are arguing that a team that finished the regular season 10-2 (Penn State) should go to the playoff over a team that finished 11-1 (Ohio State). You can't have it both ways. Oh, BTW, your undefeated team "logic" means that the #2 team should be Western Michigan over Ohio State. WM has had a terrific season, but they simply haven't faced the quality of opposition for a playoff berth. Their most impressive opponents were Northwestern and Illinois. Not shabby, but not better than Ohio State either. It will be very interesting to see how WM does in a major bowl game, possibly against Wisconsin. Penn St. finished 11-2 and won the conference, a power 5 conference.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,938 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,938 Likes: 11 |
If the whole season were an elimination tournament (where each game would be significant) where everyone is a participant, only the last undefeated team left standing would be the NATIONAL CHAMPION. Should there be more than one, then they (however many that might be) could engage in a play-off.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2008
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I remember a time when the national champion was determined by a vote of sports writers. Everyone said it was too subjective. Then we let a computer pick two teams to play for the championship. But everyone said it wasn't subjective enough.
So now we have a committee picking 4 teams for a playoff. And everyone is complaining about if the criteria are too subjective or not.
I could care less who the "national champion" is. No one argues that Alabama isn't the best team in the country. They would be the champs regardless of what system has ever been used. They will be this year unless something goes horribly wrong in one of their games. And if it does, everyone will still think they were the best team this year, despite who becomes the national champion.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,993 Likes: 7 |
If the whole season were an elimination tournament (where each game would be significant) where everyone is a participant, only the last undefeated team left standing would be the NATIONAL CHAMPION. Should there be more than one, then they (however many that might be) could engage in a play-off. Nope! No way to know other than subjective. The conference champs should be in play off for the CFC
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,938 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,938 Likes: 11 |
Good post - this whole NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP business is about two things: money and fans being able to proclaim that their dick is bigger than someone else's because "their" team is the NATIONAL CHAMPION.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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If you can't even win your conference division much less your conference, then you have no business playing for the national championship. NONE.
Even if the 2nd place team in another conference is clearly better? You see this in the NFL quite often. The divisional winners some years have finished 8-8 and made playoff's while 13-3 teams in other divisions watched on TV. The NFL uses a 5 game playoff system to determine the Worlds Champion. I think we are already asking student athletes to play too many games over too long of a season as it is. Historically I've never strongly disagreed with any team that got the title. Even back in the days when it was simply voted on after the bowl games. There have been a few years when #1 and #2 could make a strong argument about the order. But the current system prevents that. The only real arguments are usually over in which order you start ranking teams out of the top 5. The system ain't perfect, but unless you want something like the NCAA basketball finals it is the best we can do.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,993 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,993 Likes: 7 |
If you can't even win your conference division much less your conference, then you have no business playing for the national championship. NONE.
Even if the 2nd place team in another conference is clearly better? You see this in the NFL quite often. The divisional winners some years have finished 8-8 and made playoff's while 13-3 teams in other divisions watched on TV. The NFL uses a 5 game playoff system to determine the Worlds Champion. I think we are already asking student athletes to play too many games over too long of a season as it is. Historically I've never strongly disagreed with any team that got the title. Even back in the days when it was simply voted on after the bowl games. There have been a few years when #1 and #2 could make a strong argument about the order. But the current system prevents that. The only real arguments are usually over in which order you start ranking teams out of the top 5. The system ain't perfect, but unless you want something like the NCAA basketball finals it is the best we can do. How do you determine the second place team is clearly better? They finished second is enough to eliminate them from the national championship picture.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 18,033
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2006
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It's a game to determine 3rd place. Michigan beat both of them already this season. Yeah but they didn't beat the Buckeyes.
molɔ̀ːn labé skýla
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,586
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,586 |
If you can't even win your conference division much less your conference, then you have no business playing for the national championship. NONE.
Even if the 2nd place team in another conference is clearly better? You see this in the NFL quite often. The divisional winners some years have finished 8-8 and made playoff's while 13-3 teams in other divisions watched on TV. The NFL uses a 5 game playoff system to determine the Worlds Champion. I think we are already asking student athletes to play too many games over too long of a season as it is. Historically I've never strongly disagreed with any team that got the title. Even back in the days when it was simply voted on after the bowl games. There have been a few years when #1 and #2 could make a strong argument about the order. But the current system prevents that. The only real arguments are usually over in which order you start ranking teams out of the top 5. The system ain't perfect, but unless you want something like the NCAA basketball finals it is the best we can do. They finished second is enough to eliminate them from the national championship picture. How about a better OVERALL record? That seems simple enough for anyone. Conference championships only count CONFERENCE games. This distorts results enough that a team that lost ALL it's non-conference games and stood 8-4 could still be conference champion over an 11-1 team that lost only one game to a division opponent. The system is set up the way it is to avoid this. This seems to confuse some people, even when it's explained to them. Repeatedly. The committee has been crystal clear that they are going to pick the best teams - in this case the 4 teams with the best OVERALL records - and not the 4 best conference championships.
Last edited by natman; 12/04/16.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,938 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,938 Likes: 11 |
... in this case the 4 teams with the best OVERALL records ... 13-0?
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Posts: 4,349
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I would rather see Penn State in it than Washington. Yeah they won their conference but look at the strength of schedule.... Washington never won against a top 10 school all year but Penn State beat 2 of them.
I think it should be
Alabama
Ohio State
Clemson
Penn State
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,993 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,993 Likes: 7 |
If you can't even win your conference division much less your conference, then you have no business playing for the national championship. NONE.
Even if the 2nd place team in another conference is clearly better? You see this in the NFL quite often. The divisional winners some years have finished 8-8 and made playoff's while 13-3 teams in other divisions watched on TV. The NFL uses a 5 game playoff system to determine the Worlds Champion. I think we are already asking student athletes to play too many games over too long of a season as it is. Historically I've never strongly disagreed with any team that got the title. Even back in the days when it was simply voted on after the bowl games. There have been a few years when #1 and #2 could make a strong argument about the order. But the current system prevents that. The only real arguments are usually over in which order you start ranking teams out of the top 5. The system ain't perfect, but unless you want something like the NCAA basketball finals it is the best we can do. They finished second is enough to eliminate them from the national championship picture. How about a better OVERALL record? That seems simple enough for anyone. Conference championships only count CONFERENCE games. This distorts results enough that a team that lost ALL it's non-conference games and stood 8-4 could still be conference champion over an 11-1 team that lost only one game to a division opponent. The system is set up the way it is to avoid this. This seems to confuse some people, even when it's explained to them. Repeatedly. The committee has been crystal clear that they are going to pick the best teams - in this case the 4 teams with the best OVERALL records - and not the 4 best conference championships. No, Penn St beat tOSU and the other teams in the conference and won the conference Championship. tOSU finished behind Penn St. Penn St deserves to be in the playoffs tOSU does not.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,293 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,293 Likes: 4 |
... in this case the 4 teams with the best OVERALL records ... 13-0? Alabama should be awarded the National Championship for what they accomplished during the season. Second place should be determined by the subjective play off or not so subjective playoff of conference winners of the remaining power conferences.. Who gives a [bleep] about being first loser anyway.. ?
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
Thomas Jefferson
GeoW, The "Unwoke" ...Let's go Brandon!
"A Well Regulated Militia" Life Member
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Clemson dam near got beat and Washington didn't really play anybody. . . . . .PSU should definitely be in.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,938 Likes: 11 |
... in this case the 4 teams with the best OVERALL records ... 13-0? Alabama should be awarded the National Championship ... at the beginning of the season...
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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