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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,168 Likes: 5
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,168 Likes: 5 |
Jamesjr,
Have pointed this out before, both here and in magazine articles and books, but one of the difficulties in handloading for the 7x57 is that like a lot of military cartridges developed before 1900, throat lengtsh vary considerably. Most throats from that era were VERY long, to accomodate the very heavy round-nosed bullets almost universally used in early military rifles.
Once the switch to lighter spitzers began, throat lengths were shortened up in some military rifles, the reason the .30-06 replaced the .30-03, and .30-06 throat lengths have been standardized ever since. But the throats in rifles chambered for many other old military cartridges still vary enormously, and the 7x57 is one of those rounds.
I've owned a pile of 7x57's over the years, from old military rifles to modern sporters to recent custom rifles. Have seen the original super-long military throat in rifles made in the 1990's, and short "sporter" throats in rifles made before WWII. Which is exactly why exactly how much powder (as an example let's use IMR4350) it takes to reach a certain velocity varies enormously. I've owned 7x57's with 21-22" barrels that would get 2900 fps from 139-140 grain bullets with only 46 grains or so, and others that needed 50 grains. Which is no doubt why Jim's suggested "over charge" of IMR4350 only got 2600 in your barrel.
Will also note that an editor who worked with Bob Hagel says he bulged the chambers in more than one rifle while working up loads, a sign of high pressure far more certain than those used by most handloaders. John: I've seen you mention this quite a bit, and it leads me to a question: Why, after all these years, hasn't the throat length been standardized across the board? If it has for other cartridges, why not the 7x57? As an aside, I find it fascinating that just about every 7x57 thread on the 'fire runs to at least 5 pages, generally more. Is that because the old cartridge really isn't as dead as a lot of folks think? Or is it because 7x57 owners are among the looniest of looneys?
RM This.
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,737 |
Just as there are those who constantly look forward to the next greatest cartridge, others continue to look back on what still works after 100 years. I'd say there was room for both views.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
Roundoak: I NEVER fed a 7x57 a 175 gr bullet.... ![smile smile](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) My favorite was a 140 NPT. Understand exactly what you were doing. I just settled on 150 gn core-lokt over 50 gr of ar2209 for 2700 fps in the old Brno 21...the same load gave a neat 2800 fps out of a square bridge Waffenfabrik Oberndorf. I mucked about with Nosler and a couple of other projectiles but stayed with the Remington as they cost $20 per 100 at the time and were great fun on rabbits. I have since moved on to 7x64. JSTUART: I would buy another 7x57 but unless it's on a G33/40 or commercial BRNO I have no interest.... I am with you on this. The old Brno 21 on right. Two current 7x64. I am a sucker for early Brno as I truly appreciate quality...I dumped a very nice 7x57 square bridge Waffenfabrik Mauser with factory fitted Zeiss Zeilvier in Akah mounts because in my opinion the Brno model 21 was a rifle better suited to my wants. ps, I am fine with not having much so long as what I do have is what I want.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,232 Likes: 28 |
JSTUART,
Nice rifles!
I always like to keep a few POS's around to make the good stuff look better.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Now you're talking!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718 |
JSTUART, those are beautiful. You've got great taste, and the wisdom not to let them slip through your fingers.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. --Winston Churchill
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,268 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,268 Likes: 2 |
Just as there are those who constantly look forward to the next greatest cartridge, others continue to look back on what still works after 100 years. I'd say there was room for both views. And I'd say you are very right.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,275 |
roundoak, Thanks again for the 7x57 article. That is the one I was looking for. Been on a shotgun binge lately, nothing wrong with that,but, thinking ONE more nice 7x57 may be in order. The search is on!
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 26,666 Likes: 21
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 26,666 Likes: 21 |
If nothing else, the author has a great last name.
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Joined: Dec 2012
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2012
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I am with you on this. The old Brno 21 on right. Two current 7x64. I am a sucker for early Brno as I truly appreciate quality...I dumped a very nice 7x57 square bridge Waffenfabrik Mauser with factory fitted Zeiss Zeilvier in Akah mounts because in my opinion the Brno model 21 was a rifle better suited to my wants. ps, I am fine with not having much so long as what I do have is what I want. Very nice looking rifles. I've seen a few 7x64s for sale, mostly Rugers. For my use I'm not sure what I'd be gaining, if anything, over the 7x57, but those are definitely nice rifles. RM
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786 |
Honestly Rev I don't think there is much to gain between the two...it will just allow me to idle the 7x64 instead of booting the 7x57 along, and I will be happy with 120 gr TTSX at 3000fps.
As long as I am shooting a model 21 I don't really care what cartridge it is chambered for.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 456 |
I built two 7x57 mausers back in the 1960s and one 6.5x57 had them engraved by John Adams sr. I have hunted with them over the years and have never been let down by them and hunted with one this season. back in the 60s that cartridge was not only pretty much unknown in the American hunting market the cartridge itself was difficult to come by.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,946 Likes: 27 |
It is nice to see the interest in this thread, especially when "tactical" and long range shooting seems to be taking up most of the oxygen and ink.
the first hunter I ever guided in Alaska was a sheep hunter in the Talkeetna mtns who was carrying a 1930's G&H in 7x57 and two weeks ago for Christmas I gave my nephew, who has recently moved to Alaska, a Mauser carbine in 7x57.
It was and still is one of the very best and could easily be substituted with "30-06" in my tag line.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,653 |
While searching for an Alaskan outfitter to hunt Mountain goats this year, the conversations usually come to what rifle/cartridge I will use. I tell them a Ruger 77 7x57. One outfitter asked...what is a 7x57. I responded 7mm Mauser. He responded, oh. I scratched him off my list.
You're Welcome At My Fire Anytime
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,946 Likes: 27 |
There should be a lot more important things to judge a hunting guide on than whether or not they know much about rifles or cartridges ! The little known secret is that very few guides have more than a cursory knowledge of firearms. Many are not even that good of shot -- but are experienced hunters who can get the job done.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,852 |
[quote=458Win]It is nice to see the interest in this thread, especially when "tactical" and long range shooting seems to be taking up most of the oxygen and ink.
[quote]
Although I never knew the late Finn Aagaard, my hunting style matches his: get as close as you can, then get 10 yards closer. Unless I'm shooting something that bites back - which I doubt I ever will - I expect my 7x57s will fill the bill.
RM
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,653 |
There should be a lot more important things to judge a hunting guide on than whether or not they know much about rifles or cartridges ! The little known secret is that very few guides have more than a cursory knowledge of firearms. Many are not even that good of shot -- but are experienced hunters who can get the job done. I agree about judgement, but the inflection in his voice and his overall phone demeanor after the exchange about the cartridge was a negative.
You're Welcome At My Fire Anytime
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,232 Likes: 28 |
Phil,
A few years ago I, once again, did not draw a Montana moose tag. This has happened for over 40 years now, but periodically I grow weary of it and book a moose hunt somewhere else. This time an outfitter friend in Alberta had a cancellation and I grabbed it, partly because he's only a day's drive from home so it's easy to get the meat back to Montana.
I also knew the outfitter (who is not a gun guy) highly recommended a 7mm or .300 magnum. I took my 7x57, and when the guide (who I knew shot a 7mm Remington Magnum) and I headed out he looked at my gun case and asked, "So what caliber is your rifle?"
I said, "Seven millimeter." He just nodded, and we went hunting. Of course the 7x57 worked fine on a typical mature bull for the area, and I drove back to Montana feeling virtuous, not just because of all the moose meat in the back of the pickup, but because I hadn't lied to my guide....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Conduct is the best proof of character.
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