Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Hunting Deer with the .223 Rem?

Anyone have experience killing deer with a .223 Rem? A local shop has a nice old M70 Featherweight in .223 - I'm tempted to pick it up for some varmint shooting but am interested in possibly hunting mule deer with it. Shots are usually under 200 yards but 300 is not uncommon. I would reload and use good bullets like the Nosler Bonded 64 grainer. Thoughts, experiences? Thanks.

Google is your friend with this dilemma.

I have used Sierra 55 GK SP with great results from the 223 and bet the 60 Partition would be good as long as the twist is there to shoot them.

Others will chime in about the Hornady 55, Sierra 63 and Barnes TTSX, all of which I am sure will turn the lights out on a buck pretty fast but I have no hans on experience with those bullets.

I don,t think there is any experience on this site ...

Absolute killer. I would not go much beyond 200 yards.

Stunt shooters weapon of choice

It bounces off.

You can kill deer with them,but it wouldn't be my top choice for a dedicated 200-300 yard mule deer gun.

Surely you've seen this topic ad infinitum in the 11+ years you've been here.

As in Gunwriters about a mo ago?

Add AI and its god fer griz to 500. Fire said so.

If you cant whack muleys at 800 in the brush with a 20 mph breeze with the AI version you aint chitt fer a hunter.

I think Centershot has been around here long enough without being labeled a troll, to think this is a legitimate Q...It did strike me as strange though after so many threads flinging 223 poo around...

Anyhow...Vanilla .223 Rem at about 80-100 yards.
62 TSX. Would prefer to push it a bit faster than the 223 is capable of, but the 64 grain bonded shouldn't need warp speed to work well.

I saw a recent thread here where Barrett will be building the light weight Fieldcraft rifles in 22-250 with a 1:7 twist.IMHO that might be a real dual purpose gun.

The 64g win power point works well. It's shorter blunt shape helps it stabilize in the slower twist barrels but doesn't give you much BC. A 200 yard killer maybe 300 if you push it.

Bb

It'll work just fine but there're people who say its too small, there's also people here who have trouble killing deer with ANY rifle in their hands no matter what the chambering. I've only ever killed whitetails from 20-450yds with a 223/223AI using 50Vmax's, 60partition's, 62TSX's, and 75Amax's. I won't even count the fast twist 22-250/22-250AI kills. Wife and I have killed 5 with the just the 60 partition the past couple seasons and I've recovered 3 of those bullets. Never had a 62TSX stay in a deer, the other bullets came apart. I'm back to using the TSX full time.

Good ro see you posting again Brad

There is ample evidence on this site for the right bullet in the right place.

I was skeptical for a long time regarding the distances guys were turning in kills with a mild 6. But there it is. The larger cartridge killing power thing is deeply ingrained in hunting lit and our heads. The endless cartridge blather on the net seldom touches on how well a guy can shoot--as if shooting well is somehow a constant.

But the bottom line is the right bullet for the circumstances and placement in critter. As you said, some people will have trouble killing deer regardless.

Personally, hunting where I do, am curious about the higher BC bullets in the 22 caliber, hit signatures, cut hair and blood evidence compared to larger diameter bullets you have used in the past. Would appreciate hearing about it.

Have plans...:)

Not trolling - and did see a 223AI Thread that was miles long. Had trouble determining if that was even serious as there are so many smart ass remarks. Seems to be a common theme where the .223 is mentioned as deer worthy.

I am/was in the camp of the .223 being too small, but never having tried it myself, wanted to ask the question. I have been around long enough and shot enough deer to know that a shot with a bullet that light would need to be broadside at reasonable range.

The reason I ask is that I have always wanted a M70 Featherweight (prefer .308) but saw one in .223 at a local shop. I'm trying to justify it to myself and if I could add it as a legit deer killer, well that may just be the tipping point.

The possible problem is the slow factory twist. It will limit your options bullet wise.

Agreed, why I'm asking about experiences from guys that have actually used the .223Rem. on deer. It would not be a dedicated mule deer gun - more of a multi purpose varmint, coyote and possible deer gun.

That has been on my mind. Have not been able to find what the twist was on '80's Winchesters.

TSX worked for me this year. I don't usually shoot past 100 in the woods where I hunt though.

I've used 223 on deer quite a bit , never used a dedicated deer bullet. Mostly 50 gr Vmax over benchmark. Also started my daughters out with an AR and that load . In my experience from 20 to a bit less than 300 yds it's a good round. Bullet placement through the lungs/heart or obviously head / neck shots give pretty good results. I've shot around 25-30 deer with it and haven't lost any or had any long tracking jobs. If I were using it as a dedicated deer gun I probably would pick a tougher bullet like the 64 gr or various other bullets . Good luck , just remember they won't leave a blood trail like a .30.

Life and death don't back up this statement. My life the deer's death. The first deer I killed with a .223 was ranged 222 yards. A Nosler 60 grain solid base entered at the top of the sternum and exited in front of the diaphragm. The deer dropped at the shot and didn't even quiver.

Was very impressed with results I saw personally on deer this year with Remington hyper velocity bonded ammo. That being said I think 300 is a long poke and with margin of error built in I would want a little more thump than the 223 delivers. On the smallish WT buck my son shot this year it broke both shoulders and exited. Shot was inside 80 yards.

I would get that gun and enjoy it more than the 308, as i would be shooting deer with a hornady 60 gr interlock, nosler p, or barnes, but i would also use it on hogs and coyotes and ravens and such. I wish i had that gun.

Probably a 1-14 twist and no good for the heavier or solid copper bullets. I would not buy it unless I was going to rebarrel.

Yup, a 53 grain tsx worked here

No doubt it will kill deer, but not a great choice for that role compared to something a bit bigger. Why limit yourself? Also, is it legal in your state? I bought a .223, thinking to use it for predators and some doe hunting, but have since started hunting in a bordering state that only allows .23 (?) caliber and larger for deer.

On the other hand, if you really like the rifle, that alone is a good reason to buy it. Figger the rest out later.

I had a model 70 featherweight in .223. Factory twist was 1-12 as was standard for the .223 at the time. Lots of good deer capable bullets that will stabilize in a 12 twist including 50 gr. Barnes TTSX, 53 and 55 gr. Barnes TSX, 50 and 55 gr. Hornady GMX, 64 gr. Winchester power point, 60 gr. Nosler partition and 64 gr. Nosler bonded performance.

I shot one deer with the 223. Small buck, 45gr TSX. Hit rib going in and out. Lodged under skin on off side. Deer went about 50 yards. Lungs pretty mushed up.
I would think something heavier would be better choice for deer.
My #3 likes 40 and 45 grainers, so that is what I used and I will reserve it for varmints in the future.
jmho
Tim

I think the 55 grn TTSX or the factory loaded 62 grn Federal Fusion would likely shoot well in that stock Winchester.

The bad thing about it is that it will work but would be less than ideal on anything except perfect shot opportunities. In my experience when I am hunting with a gun like that I'm likely to see the trophy of a lifetime only offering me a Texas heart shot.It's a shot I wouldn't think twice about with my 7 mag or 270 and good bonded or Barnes bullets.

The fact is that you can kill the snot out of deer with just a 22 lr if you always place the bullet well.I don't rely on enough gun to make up for poor shot placement but I've often needed something that would leave no doubt about penetration when offered a hard angle shot.

I would hunt the 223 but only knowing that there might be shots I would have to pass up that I wouldn't hesitate on with a different caliber.

buy it and have fun. a 223 is a super fun and easy to load for round.
there are lots of bullets that will kill deer well and work in the slow twist guns. Just hit them where you are supposed to. no need to over think it

You don't believe a Barnes out of a 223 will break a deer pelvis?

I find it interesting that many argue the merits of the .223 as a deer round but never talk about any short comings.
The short comings are it's small wound channel and less damage than is made by larger bullets.
This doesn't matter if it shot is placed in the forward half of the chest cavity where it penetrates both lungs and lots of blood vessels. The buck isn't going far.
But how about the shots that go bad and hit something that doesn't bleed nearly as much ? Think a .22 caliber bullet will make as large a wound channel as a 7mm - .308 bullet of like construction and velocity ?
One doesn't hear much about fast .270 or '06' bullets that expand rapidly killing quickly with a hit behind the diaphragm. But Jack O'Connor used to write about such things.
I'm not saying this happens much on really big, tough animals, but it does on deer.
John Wooters, in his great book, Hunting Throphy Deer discussed the fact that one rarely gets the time to carefully place his shots on big, old bucks. For that job one needs extra killing ability. That's why he recommended cartriages between .26-.30 caliber pusing bullets between 130-150 grs. in weight between 2800-3000 fps. E

I do.

I also shot a running doe (she spooked) running away from me at 45 yds with a 53 tsx.
Broke the pelvis in 3 pieces and still exited out between her right front shoulder and neck.
I'm a believer.

I do. My concern is if it will have the penetration necessary to reach vitals after 200 yards. Maybe it's unfounded but I would prefer that shot with my 7 mag.

Were Barnes available back when those books were written? Ford did'nt make a 3.5 liter V6 that made 375 HP either.

If all I've got to shoot at is an azz the deer walks no matter what rifle I'm carrying. I'm just not that desperate to kill a deer, ever.

Just use a 22LR!

That'll work!

200 yards and under there isn't a shot angle I would pass up with the .223AI that I would take with the 7mm-08, .300Sav, .308W or .30-06. Further with the .22-250.


If you don't want to believe what others here have proven and shown, then you have to prove it to yourself. I trusted their experience and then found out they were right.

Well, I am going to give it a go and see it for myself. Maybe the Nosler to dink around with.

And there are certainly a couple of racks on the wall here that would have gotten shot regardless of the presentation...)

No second shot allowed?

There's not a deer hunt in this country I'd pass up with a 223AI in my hands.

I knew lots of folks kill deer with the 223. I just never examined if they were all done with broadside shots or not.I'm not arguing results.

If you can't handle the recoil of a real deer rifle perhaps you should stay home on the couch with your knitting. The .223 is a girlyman's deer rifle, O.K. for women and kids for grown men not so much.

So what is a real deer rifle?

I'm about 6' 2" and 210 pounds. I want to make sure I'm killing deer in the right way to go with my size. Should I bring my 338 mag out of retirement?

On second thought big deer around here are 200 pounds, so my 300 Wby. should suffice.

Noted.

There are deer and there are deer. Before I burn my stash of CO deer points on a late season tag, it is going to take some serious first hand evidence to leave a 7 at home and take an equally fast 223...

Having hunted upper MI and upper Minne religiously, along with lower Canuckville, have killed some seriously heavy bucks. The heaviest dressed 265. Pig. You seldom have the luxury of a perfect shot.The problem (for me) isn't killing them as much as wanting to avoid the duress of not finding the runners in the wet tangle quickly --which would also cover the private land concern. Being red/green color-blind I rely on cut hair and tracks. Currently am having a hard time trusting that an angulating non-broadside shot with a 65 grain bullet is going to have the same outcome as a 140g bullet.

Maybe it will, I don't know. Will experiment with the locals.

You don't read these threads much. Your first point....At least half tell us how poor the .223 is. Your second point.....The vast majority of people will never see a big old buck. Those old writers were just like the rest of us except they had more time to hunt. That gave them the opportunity to pass on a good deer to wait for a great buck.

I have a Savage 22-250 with a 12 twist and the TTSX shows signs of instability. Groups open up and the target strikes are slightly ovalized.

This topic comes up often and typically stirs up spirited discussion. You obviously have various camps. Those who roundly eschew the 223 for deer hunting and those who swear by it. What you rarely find is anyone who has experience with the 223 and quality bullets who doesn't recommend it. The overwhelming majority of the detractors have never used a 223 with premium bullets on deer. That tells you all you need to know. I load the 60 grain Partition for my grandson and he is up to over a dozen one shot kills. Most died in their tracks and none have run more than 40 yards or so. Exit holes are the norm along with jellied heats and lungs. These are small coastal deer. It wouldn't be my first choice for a big Mule Deer at 300 yards, but I wouldn't pass on a good shot if I had it either.

A Winchester model 70 FW in 223 is a sweet rifle. Get it!

Funny shiet from a panhandler

It will. I no more worry about bones and angles when I'm carrying my 223AI than I do say a 35 Whelen.

[quote=battue]
200 yards and under there isn't a shot angle I would pass up with the .223AI that I would take with the 7mm-08, .300Sav, .308W or .30-06. Further with the .22-250.
[/quote


Is it more the 'AI' or the quality projectiles that have elevated the 223 (221, 222, etc) from 'too light' in the eyes of almost every major gunwriter?

I've never shot one at a deer, so I dont know. I am guessing its advancemetns in projectiles.

your thoughts?

Bullets are better, barrels are better, optics are better, there are more deer and lots of gun writers suffer from BobinNH syndrome.

I'll buy all of that.

AI obviously helps a little with MV. Others post of using various bullets. I have only used the TSX and TTSX and friends the same. 5-6 myself from close to around 220 all pass thrus. All went down inside a couple steps at most. One at 75-and with a .22-250-went in the chest and exited the back ham.

Another friend used my .223AI at around 150. Lungs and the deer ran a small circle and dropped.

Friends and their Kids,.223's-Barnes-another 5 all pass thru. One was a bad hit by his Daughter that entered just front of the rear ham. Deer made it around 100-125.



Good bullets for me make the difference.


Addition: One more, Cousin with my .223AI at around 100-125. In the neck and the bullet was found someplace down the spine.

OK, thanks Scott

No, the excellent Barnes bullets weren't availiable then. But the Nosler Partition was.
I know a number of people who use the .223 on deer and pronghorn. They are very impressed with it. One of them is a close friend who has killed some four year old class bucks with his. BTW, he doesn't use the premium bullets.
My point was that for some due to their hunting conditions and style of hunting, it works well. But for guys like me, who have to deal with big old bucks running and dodging through cover, it is not even a choice. The guys who shoot them beyond 300 yds. don't seem to use it much either.
Yeah, I know a guy who killed a nice pronghorn facing him at over 400 yds. But to say it can be done is not the same as saying it's the best choice. E

Bucks don't move or dodge thru cover in the big woods States? And most who use them admit 300 is starting to push them. They are what they are and big old Bucks have nothing to do with it.

Addition: And if the hunter/writers of the past have any bearing on the subject, you should read "Alaska's Wolfman" and read what Frank Glaser thought about the Swift and he had the old style bullets. Wasn't till he was messing with big bears until he became concerned.

My only experience is with a the 62 TSX. Results have been great and I've never caught a bullet when shooting for bone (which has been all of them). I'm a fan.

After saying that, I'm still hesitant to shoot for lungs only with the TSX. Almost all my hunting is heavily wooded mountain sides and if they run at all they are out of sight. I have no doubts it will work, but if I'm going to follow a blood trail I like it heavy on both sides... I need to send a few through lungs to get over it but I just haven't done it.

I killed several Mule Deer on a sort of cull hunt 30 years ago with the only rifle I had available --- A Mini 14 with 55 grain Hornady soft points. They all fell over dead reasonably quickly----- until one didn't. I never found the young Doe.

All shots were less than 100 yards and carefully placed in the lungs. I don't know what happened. Maybe the Partition would help.

This.

And some other stuff too.

Poobs,


Gentleman's dink hunts are one thing.


Hunting for big bucks requires something a little more deadly.

grin

Larry those things happen with a .223..

I am with Sam.

Somehow, I always suspected that about Sam...:)

Kind of swiping from othe last couple of threads about this....










With the 77gr Sierra TMK and the 75gr Hornady A-MAX I have no issue with a 223 WAY past 300 yards. I've only killed deer to 303 yards with the 77gr TMK (which crushed him), but I've seen what they do to tissue below 1,600fps impact velocity and there isn't a deer alive that's walking it off from a hit in the front half....

77gr TMK at 303 yards, deer went about 10 feet.



Through scapula joint, ribs, etc. approx 18in penetration.











These are small wound channels?


77gr TMK a tick over 100 yards, traveled around 30 yards



Through the scapula and around 20in of penetrate.








2,750fps impact







2,550fps impact.








Cont..... below.

2,650fps or so










We kill a quite a few deer a year, and the 22 CF's do very well with good bullets, and are downright sinister with a couple of bullets. I/we have started to change our thoughts on bullets the more we kill with .22 CF's- used to be we thought like everyone else that "tougher bullets" such as TSX's, GMX's, etc were the way to go in the smaller guns. After several dozen kills with them I GREATLY prefer heavy 75 and 77gr AMAX/Tipped Matchkings. They damage significantly more tissue and animals do not travel nearly as far.

.With 75gr AMAX or the 77gr TMK I do not feel that I give up much of anything to bigger calibers when viewed as a whole. There is no magic in bullets or how they kill. All else being equal with sufficient penetration, the wider the wound channel (the bigger the hole) the faster things die.


The Hornady 75gr A-MAX and the 77gr Sierra Tipped Matchking are two .224 bullets that have a wider wound channel in deer sized animals than most premium bullets that deer hunters are using.






It isn't the 1960's anymore. Once John Nosler came out with the Partition and people started realizing how to engineer projectiles from the targets perspective, the world of "sensible" choices changed. Manufactures can and do create bullets for specific characteristics in tissue and it is no thang to get a 300gr .338 bullet that will come unglued and only penetrate 10in, or a 50gr .224 that will penetrate 30+ inches.

Yes, it's possible to build a larger caliber bullet that will create much more tissue damage than a 77gr .224 bullet. However I haven't met anyone that wants MORE damage than the above. So if a person can get as much or more damage than they want, more penetration than they need, less recoil, less cost, less blast, and more precision...




Bullets, bullets, bullets.....

So true - when you see a big buck, you just start throwing lead. Best if you are throwing big pieces.

SNORK!

I was patiently waiting for you to read that.


And all I get is a SNORK!?



Not even a nibble, I was clearly using the wrong lure.....grin

I was in a hurry...


Hows this?

This stuff is golden...

SamOlson: Heres where you are wrong!
I have posted previously of this family (friends of mine) here in SW Montana and their use of the 223 Remington Rifle they own to kill not only Mule Deer but Antelope, Whitetail Deer and a Mt. Goat.
Specific instance #1:
I was there when their teenage daughter killed a trophy 31" Mule Deer over in the Powder River country of eastern Montana!
That trophy Mule Deer Buck was HUGE!
AND... it was killed with one shot!
Broad and sweeping statements are quite often erroneous.
I suggest you get some first hand experience before you make statements like you have in regards to the 223 Remington's lethality.
Carefully placed shots through the heart/lungs of Deer sized game WILL render said creatures dead - I know!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I think Sam has one on..

Anyone using Nosler's 80 grain Custom Competition as a hunting bullet for deer?





P

This proves you are wrong Sammo!

Beyond the shadow of a doubt!

TFF!

Ive been hog hunting and deer hunting with 223 for years. They heavy bullets work great!

Furthest hog kill is 335 yards with a 18" 8 Twist AR shooting 64gr Gold Dot loaded with CFE223. Closest kill was at the end of my suppressor when one snuck up on us.

Furthest Deer kill is 510 yards with a 77gr TMK out of the same 18" AR.

I see alot of people look down on a 223 but most of them have trouble killing a deer with a 300WM. And alot will go out and use FMJ and wonder why it ran off.

Our deer aren't very big does 80-110lbs bucks 110-150lbs I have plans for an 8 twist T3 223 to try out myself. Figure on a partition or tsx of some flavor.

My 1-10" T3 does this with 50 TTSX.







P

If it works on African buffalo, it should work fine on mule deer.

We're gonna need the story on that!

The Ultimate Stunt Shooter!

I'm just kidding.

Yeah.
He used a .17 Rem

Damn!

Good one, but you should've let it ride a little longer, talked about shot placement, premium pills, and so on and so forth.

Theeck: Now that funny!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Even a .22lr can and has killed deer. Any doubt of that, check with your DNR. It is a common poacher's weapon. Sound doesn't carry as far. I personally have never used the .223, but my cousin has taken quite a few deer with both a .222 and a .223. I have no doubt it is effective.
You could not use it here, legally, but it would get the job done.
Shot placement matters more than bullet used.

My cousin ingwe has killed a sh*tpile of deer with the 223 but that was before he married my other cousin Gladys.

Back when he had teeth. He says headstamp is the most important.

Here is a question for the group, ever had a bullet hit a 1 inch or so diameter sapling you did not see in your scope before it hit the deer? I have wondered and don't know the answer for a 22 caliber 75AMAX or 77TMK. I have killed deer and pigs with the 62 TSX and the 75 grain Swift scirrocco and the 223 gun. The deer I killed this year was walking at 80 or so yards and the .308/150 cup and core bullet center punched a small sapling before entering his neck. I don't know if the 75AMAX or 77TMK would have made that journey thru the sapling and the neck? Thoughts?

Don't shoot trees.

Yep.

Thats what "brush" guns are made for. Shoot brush with them

Shoot deer with .223s

Killing a deer with a tree-08 is pure stunt shooting

Schit happens...

I've had this happen twice once with a .22-250 and once with a .308 coincidentally, I didn't hit either deer. Like Scott and Tom said above, don't shoot trees shoot deer.