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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,543 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,543 Likes: 6 |
You have 19 posts and the majority are insults and generally negative. Even if I could outshoot you with a worthless Nikon or Leopold low power scope or heaven forbid a bushnell I wouldn't attempt it(not claiming that I could by the way). Why would I throw away precious time trying to win an internet argument with someone so energy draining and fun sucking. Lighten up and contribute to the general campfire experience instead of trying to bring everyone else down with you. It's a choice to respond a certain way, not a necessity.
MM That's the thing, I did come in here with a positive attitude, posted my experience and why I thought a lot of Montana's get condemned so quick. Then I got the, "all you need is a cheap Leupold" line. A low power Leupold is a decent cheap scope. Nothing more, nothing less. There is a reason competitive shooters use big magnification, high $$$ scopes. If they didn't outperform low magnification scopes, nobody would bother wasting money on them. Shooting MOA with a low power Leupold is not that hard. I have no problem doing it. The thing is, MOA is not good enough for ME, and a lot of others. I thought I made that pretty clear in my post, but some must not read before they post nonsense. Just curious, but what do 25x scopes and shooting in the .1's have to do with lightweight hunting rifles? Nothing. I just simply pointed out an experience. If one is after consistent accuracy, it's better to spend the money on glass and get a cheaper rifle. For some reason, most here go the opposite way. Makes little sense. Totally agree, but magnification has little to do with it.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,543 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,543 Likes: 6 |
A few years ago a rep from Kimber was hunting in Utah with, I believe, Lee J. Hoots. The rep shot a 3-4" group at 100 yards. They were very happy with that.
I hope they can do better than that now. I want a .257 Roberts. The Kimber and MRC are the only ones I see that list it. I bet most Kimber rifles can shoot MOA. You just have to be prepared to do the tweaks posted on this site, and as the worst case scenario, be prepared to re barrel. In the end it's hard to beat the value that Kimber has to offer in the Montana/Hunter Models. Again, totally agree.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,543 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,543 Likes: 6 |
Shooting MOA with a low power Leupold is not that hard. I have no problem doing it. The thing is, MOA is not good enough for ME, and a lot of others. I thought I made that pretty clear in my post, but some must not read before they post nonsense.
I have a 10x scope that is parallax adjustable and has a fine reticle. Using an appropriate target and a precise enough rifle it is no problem to shoot far below MOA with that scope. For the present purpose I'll assume you're pretty good at shooting a rifle. Here's my point: If you mount this same 10x scope on the Kimber, you use an appropriate target, and you shoot it with your best form, consistency, and without bias, you'll find that scope sufficient to reveal all of the precision the rifle can reliably and repeatedly produce. It's like a base model four banger in an economy car set up for 87 octane gas. Putting in 93 octane gets you nothing. Yessir. I've posted some of these pics before, but guys still insist that things like this can't be done with Kimbers or 6x/3-9x scopes. Somehow I doubt a 25x scope would shrink these groups by very much... Montana 7WSM w/3-9x scope. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/7WSM/9B5FB156-8CD9-4520-A528-4152AA5C9707_zps5uxzochb.png) Same rifle with 6x scope. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/7WSM/null_zps3892fd3f.png) R700 7WSM w/10x scope. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/7mm/F4A50883-EC82-4ED1-A8FF-ABFB8EFF0804_zpsynomlhjr.png) ![[Linked Image]](http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/7mm/46D48D5E-56B8-4BD8-888A-1CACD6C2EE31_zpsjeve5rr2.png) Montana 7-08 w/6x scope. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/Kimber%207-08/069F945E-563C-4E51-8F19-1EDC5D2597B0_zps27hkjobs.png) ![[Linked Image]](http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y397/The_Jerbel/Kimber%207-08/F7B5FC8A-DCB7-48D3-8345-3C3BD525018A_zpsy9cepjul.png)
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697 |
That's the thing, you don't know if a higher x scope will shrink groups until you try it. It sure does for me.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,543 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,543 Likes: 6 |
Oh, I've tried it plenty. Some of my rifles, including my comp rifle, have had higher-powered scopes. But strangely enough they usually sit around 10-12x, despite going up to 20x and beyond. After about 10x I notice little to no marginal utility for shooting groups at any distance out to about 1000 yards.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,923
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,923 |
That's the thing, you don't know if a higher x scope will shrink groups until you try it. It sure does for me. Post some targets...........
Dave
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
That's the thing, you don't know if a higher x scope will shrink groups until you try it. It sure does for me. Are we still discussing shooting at game from lightweight rifles in field positions?
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 10 |
That's the thing, you don't know if a higher x scope will shrink groups until you try it. It sure does for me. Are we still discussing shooting at game from lightweight rifles in field positions? Still? I don't think we even got started on that. 
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,178 Likes: 20
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,178 Likes: 20 |
Have posted this before, but will again:
The optical rule-of-thumb is that the average (20/20) unaided human eye can resolve about an inch at 100 yards. That means it can see the difference between alternating 1/2" black and white lines. Beyond 100 yards the lines will appear gray.
With good optics the resolution correlates directly to magnification: a 4x scope will help us resolve 1/4" at 100 yards, a 10x scope 1/10", a 20x scope 1/20", etc. If we use an aiming point where the reticle can be pretty precisely applied, and there's no parallax in the scope at 100 yards, then a rifle will the ability to average .5" groups at 100 with a 20x scope should average .7" with a 4x scope, since .25" (4x scope resolution error) minus .05" (20x scope resolution error) is .2".
So yes, a higher-magnification scope SHOULD result in smaller groups at 100 yards, but the difference isn't nearly as much as many people believe. The difference in optical error between 10x and 20x scopes is only .05"--less than 1/16th inch at 100 yards.
If somebody's shooting groups at 100 yards with a 10x scope several times the size of groups shot with a 20x scope, then the error lies elsewhere than magnification--perhaps in parallax, but more probably in shooter error, including using an aiming point inappropriate to the reticle and magnification.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 10 |
Have posted this before, but will again:
The optical rule-of-thumb is that the average (20/20) unaided human eye can resolve about an inch at 100 yards. That means it can see the difference between alternating 1/2" black and white lines. Beyond 100 yards the lines will appear gray.
With good optics the resolution correlates directly to magnification: a 4x scope will help us resolve 1/4" at 100 yards, a 10x scope 1/10", a 20x scope 1/20", etc. If we use an aiming point where the reticle can be pretty precisely applied, and there's no parallax in the scope at 100 yards, then a rifle will the ability to average .5" groups at 100 with a 20x scope should average .7" with a 4x scope, since .25" (4x scope resolution error) minus .05" (20x scope resolution error) is .2".
So yes, a higher-magnification scope SHOULD result in smaller groups at 100 yards, but the difference isn't nearly as much as many people believe. The difference in optical error between 10x and 20x scopes is only .05"--less than 1/16th inch at 100 yards.
If somebody's shooting groups at 100 yards with a 10x scope several times the size of groups shot with a 20x scope, then the error lies elsewhere than magnification--perhaps in parallax, but more probably in shooter error, including using an aiming point inappropriate to the reticle and magnification. And this small difference is what I don't believe a typical Kimber sporter can reliably resolve.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,219 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,219 Likes: 4 |
Your facts and logic have no place here.
These are not the droids you're looking for.
Move along.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 10 |
If somebody's shooting groups at 100 yards with a 10x scope several times the size of groups shot with a 20x scope, then the error lies elsewhere than magnification--perhaps in parallax, but more probably in shooter error, including using an aiming point inappropriate to the reticle and magnification. You mean like this? Your comprehension skills are nonexistent. I simply stated why in my opinion most Kimber accuracy stories are probably due to idiot shooters, and shared my Kimber story Mathman and a few others likely confirmed my theory.
I never said to go out and buy 25x glass. But throwing a cheap 9X leupy in order to test the guns accuracy is just idiotic. Just for kicks, I threw on a vx3 10x scope one of my rifles today, and at 100 yards the crosshairs are bigger than the 1/4 inch bullseye. How in the fuuuck are you supposed to hit in the same spot multiple times, when you cannot even see the bullseye? The scope is fine for big game at short to medium distances, but that's about it. Apparently mathman is too facking cheap to buy a decent scope, so he has no idea what the difference really is.
Anyway, there is no point of arguing this further for me. If some of you would actually spend some time trying this [bleep], instead of typing tens of thousands of posts, you would actually know something....
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 Likes: 1 |
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,268 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,268 Likes: 7 |
PS- There are NO rifles comparable to the Kimber Montana.
None. Zero. Nada.
Clark Thank God. I'm guessing you still don't own one. Dave Tikka superlight.....end of discussion.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,219 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,219 Likes: 4 |
PS- There are NO rifles comparable to the Kimber Montana.
None. Zero. Nada.
Clark Thank God. I'm guessing you still don't own one. Dave Tikka superlight.....end of discussion. No "tweaking" necessary. They ain't as pretty, I'll grant them that, but they shoot. P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,268 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,268 Likes: 7 |
PS- There are NO rifles comparable to the Kimber Montana.
None. Zero. Nada.
Clark Thank God. I'm guessing you still don't own one. Dave Tikka superlight.....end of discussion. No "tweaking" necessary. They ain't as pretty, I'll grant them that, but they shoot. P He's from Chicago so what does he know anyway. Only thing they shoot up there is brothers, booze, and dice.
Last edited by JGRaider; 02/06/17.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
PS- There are NO rifles comparable to the Kimber Montana.
None. Zero. Nada.
Clark Thank God. I'm guessing you still don't own one. Dave Tikka superlight.....end of discussion. I've owned both. End of discussion. Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
He's from Chicago so what does he know anyway. Only thing they shoot up there is brothers, booze, and dice.
You are a liar. I'm not from Chicago. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
No "tweaking" necessary.
They ain't as pretty, I'll grant them that, but they shoot.
P
They're also not comparable to a Kimber Montana. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
That's the thing, you don't know if a higher x scope will shrink groups until you try it. It sure does for me. Post some targets........... Or some eraser dots. Apparently that has something to do with something. Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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