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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The problems that the defenders of abortion face start with biology, followed by logic, and the Constitution (supported by philosophy and morality).
First, they must try to deny the biological fact that the child is human, which cannot be done. Logically, then, that child must be a distinct human and therefore a person, which they must also attempt to deny and that denial fails.
If the child is, in fact, a human and therefore a person, then it ought to be protected by the Constitution as would any other person. To deny this goes against the philosophical and moral underpinnings of American culture that holds that all men/persons are created equal, and that all are entitled to the life, livery, and the pursuit of happiness. In order for the pro-abortion stance to be justified, they must deny those rights to the child and they must hold that the mother has rights beyond that of any other person (that to simply kill another person for mere convenience). Those are anathemas to the Constitution and to the foundation of American freedoms.
In the end, they are left with having to defend an indefensible position that denies biology and logic, goes against the Constitution and thus the moral and philosophical basis of America, and they must hold that some are created inferior to others while others are created superior to the rest. To base a position like that, justified only by legalism echoes perfectly with the claims of slave traders, Nazis, Chinese communists, and the most hard-line of Islamists. They will, of course, attempt to deny this as well, but facts prove plainly otherwise. Your argument falls at it's first premise. An embryo is not a child, it is an embryo. Is the DNA human, or not? The embryonic stage is very short, between conception and implantation, and abortion does not occur during this stage. The embryo, once implantation takes place, is a HUMAN fetus, by definition a human offspring, ergo a child. That's biology, and undeniable, though you must try to deny it as everything else stems from it. Does an embryo have consciousness? The ability to react to stimuli and feel pain or comfort? I guess we'd have to define consciousness, but reaction to stimuli, pain, etc. Yes. DF
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Campfire Ranger
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The point is: the unborn are considered "human" for matters of crimes against others. Abortionists here are trying to say that the unborn child is not human, and claiming that American jurisprudence backs that assertion. It does not. No, they are not. They are considered either an embryo or a fetus depending upon their stage of development. No, he's right. For the purposes of the criminal statutes he is referencing, they are treated as a person. The law is split on when a person is a person based upon who is killing it and when. The mother is held to be more equal than others and allowed to kill a person for mere convenience when that other person is very young. No one else can do so without facing criminal prosecution.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Tracker
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Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
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Campfire Ranger
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At what point, what? Respond to stimuli? That's irrelevant in determine whether a human is biologically a human, and if the child is human, then all the rest of my post and the problems that abortionists face follows.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The point is: the unborn are considered "human" for matters of crimes against others. Abortionists here are trying to say that the unborn child is not human, and claiming that American jurisprudence backs that assertion. It does not. No, they are not. They are considered either an embryo or a fetus depending upon their stage of development. Kill a pregnant woman and see what "jurisprudence" charges you with... Yeah, a double murder. But when the rule of law gets in the way of the agenda, the agenda prevails... DF
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Campfire Tracker
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Absolutely relavent if one believes that beginging of consciousness is the moment a soul begins. The concept of "quickening" is historically relevant in the in Old English law as to whether or not murder has been committed or not.
Once again, when does consciousness begin?
Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Absolutely relavent if one believes that beginging of consciousness is the moment a soul begins. The concept of "quickening" is historically relevant in the in Old English law as to whether or not murder has been committed or not.
Once again, when does consciousness begin? Or, what is consciousness? From the Biblical context, begins at conception, as in "being known". From a scientific basis, not as clear cut. Sucking one out is killing a human organism. And, it seems flawed to let time become the determiner of when an organism is indeed an organism. Time is such a variable factor, subject to the whims of the observer. But you need a sliding scale to scale down moral and Biblical precepts. There's no bottom to quicksand... DF
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Paul
"I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon".... D.A.D.
Trump Won!, Sandmann Won!, Rittenhouse Won!, Suck it Liberal Fuuktards.
molɔ̀ːn labé skýla
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Campfire Tracker
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From a scientific point consciousness seems pretty clear to me, it is the ability to respond or react to stimuli.
From a biblical point of "being known", is this similar to "I think, therefore I am", or something else?
Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
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Campfire Tracker
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Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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It's not about "running someone else's life."
It is about protecting another human's life from murder. Again, generally not defined as murder in this country, and you attempting to impose your religious concept of when person hood begin upon others. When does personhood begin according to your take on life? That is a statement reached either through reason (philosophical) or observation (scientific/physical), not a religious one. A religious/moral decision can then follow. But of course, you know that already. Stop obfusticating and actually engage in a legitimate debate. Are you afraid of losing or something? DD I wasn't obfuscating, I was just waiting for someone to ask the obvious question. Unfortunately, so many Christian are so absolutist in their views on abortion they are unable to even think about that question. Viability begins around 22 weeks. A woman can typically feel kicks sometime between weeks 16 and 22. The Fetal brain can begin to experience sensation during the 4th month, and 91% of all abortions occur within the first 13 weeks. In other words, the vast majority of abortions in this country occur before these milestones. The consensus of those outside the two extremes support the use of abortion into the early second trimester, but not into the third.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Absolutely relavent if one believes that beginging of consciousness is the moment a soul begins. The concept of "quickening" is historically relevant in the in Old English law as to whether or not murder has been committed or not.
Once again, when does consciousness begin? The brain splits into two hemispheres and memory begins during month six.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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This is the ultimate American dilemma; life vs. liberty, government control vs. individual rights.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The problems that the defenders of abortion face start with biology, followed by logic, and the Constitution (supported by philosophy and morality).
First, they must try to deny the biological fact that the child is human, which cannot be done. Logically, then, that child must be a distinct human and therefore a person, which they must also attempt to deny and that denial fails.
If the child is, in fact, a human and therefore a person, then it ought to be protected by the Constitution as would any other person. To deny this goes against the philosophical and moral underpinnings of American culture that holds that all men/persons are created equal, and that all are entitled to the life, livery, and the pursuit of happiness. In order for the pro-abortion stance to be justified, they must deny those rights to the child and they must hold that the mother has rights beyond that of any other person (that to simply kill another person for mere convenience). Those are anathemas to the Constitution and to the foundation of American freedoms.
In the end, they are left with having to defend an indefensible position that denies biology and logic, goes against the Constitution and thus the moral and philosophical basis of America, and they must hold that some are created inferior to others while others are created superior to the rest. To base a position like that, justified only by legalism echoes perfectly with the claims of slave traders, Nazis, Chinese communists, and the most hard-line of Islamists. They will, of course, attempt to deny this as well, but facts prove plainly otherwise. Your argument falls at it's first premise. An embryo is not a child, it is an embryo. Is the DNA human, or not? The embryonic stage is very short, between conception and implantation, and abortion does not occur during this stage. The embryo, once implantation takes place, is a HUMAN fetus, by definition a human offspring, ergo a child. That's biology, and undeniable, though you must try to deny it as everything else stems from it. Implantation doesn't occur until up to week 4, so are you ok with abortifacients up to week 4?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The embryo, once implantation takes place, is a HUMAN fetus, by definition a human offspring, ergo a child.
That's biology, and undeniable,..
Embryo implantation takes place between days 7-8 ( i.e; fixation of the embryo—at blastocyst stage—in the woman’s uterus) From the 8th week onwards is when it is then first considered and referred to as a fetus, why?...because the embryonic phase is now completed to make way for the fetal phase.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Tracker
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Originally Posted By 4ager
Planned Parenthood was the brain-child of a white supremacist, Nazi-collaborating, eugenicist. It is doing, albeit it too slowly, what she wanted.
Abortion is still an unjustified homicide (murder), which those like Snyper refuse to admit in the face of biology, physiology, logic, or any other argument. It is also a eugenicist Nazi's dream, which they also refuse to admit. Bullshit. You just want to force your standards on everyone else, when it's really none of your business. You'd make a good ISIS recruit. They like forcing their beliefs on others just like you. They just aren't as hypocritical about it as you. And don't waste your time on a reply because I only see your drivel when someone quotes it, since I've heard all the same bullshit from you already. You've run from the argument every time, because you cannot refute biology, logical, philosophy, or morality. Run away again; it's the only play you have. Qouted for Snypers beneifit There's nothing to run from. You spout the same mindless BS rhetoric in every post, and pretend what other people do is your business. I don't care what you think about biology, logic philosophy or morality because you only want to control what other people do. You are only important to yourself You don't mean anything to me and you have no right to dictate to anyone. You're just one more A-hole in a world full of them. You're not much of a lawyer either if you think abortion is murder, since one is legal and one is not.
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
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Campfire Tracker
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Let's push your argument to its logical conclusion, OK? You are fine with a mother killing her two hear old toddler because the mother is running her own life, right? After all, most of us can hardly run our own lives well let alone someone else's.
Did I get that right? No you haven't gotten anything right. You know that's an irrational argument to begin with since it advocates doing something illegal. You won't get it right until you realize you only get to control what you do, not what anyone else does. Reverting to legalism? Great; that could be used just as easily to justify and excuse slavery, or the Holocaust, as both of those were legal at the time. Female genital mutilation, the stoning of homosexuals and of women even accused of adultery, or just walking without a male relative as a chaperone, are also legal in parts of the world. Your reliance on legalism to excuse any action justifies those. As to the "controlling only what one does, and not that of another" is exactly the point - the child is a human and ought to have the same rights as any other. You, and those like you, take those rights away from the child based upon mere convenience. Slavery has nothing on that. Once again. If I wanted to hear his mindless repetition I would take him off ignore. Since you seem to have no mind of your own, I'll just ignore you too. Neither of you says anything I haven't heard countless times before.
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
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Campfire Tracker
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Originally Posted By DakotaDeer
The point is: the unborn are considered "human" for matters of crimes against others. Abortionists here are trying to say that the unborn child is not human, and claiming that American jurisprudence backs that assertion. It does not. That's your fantasy. Of course it's "human" And it's still none of your business. American jurisprudence backs that
One shot, one kill........ It saves a lot of ammo!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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.. the reaction to stimuli occurs very early in human development, within the first month which is generally
before a mother knows she is pregnant. Unborns in the embryo-blastocyst stage well prior to the fetal stage, respond to stimuli? What is the medical educational source you obtained that from...the same one that wrongly told you that a blastocyst becomes a fetus immediately at the moment of implantation?
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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