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#11907021 - 03/18/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: Mule Deer]
ingwe Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 67180
Loc: Southwestern Montucky
Im liking the Spiral bound idea too.... grin
_________________________
He spoke in tears of 15 years his dog and him traveled about. The dog up and died. She up and died....After 20 years he still grieves.

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#11907029 - 03/18/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41334
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Is yours coming apart?
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11907280 - 03/18/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: Mule Deer]
ingwe Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 67180
Loc: Southwestern Montucky
No. but it would be easier to lay flat on the loading bench for easy reference. grin
_________________________
He spoke in tears of 15 years his dog and him traveled about. The dog up and died. She up and died....After 20 years he still grieves.

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#11907284 - 03/18/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: Mule Deer]
AussieGunWriter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 5478
Originally Posted By Mule Deer
Thanks!

And thanks to everybody else for feedback on the binding question. Would especially be interested in hearing from anybody who's had trouble with their copy coming apart.


John,
I am in my 44th year in the printing industry and the perfect binding on this spine and yes, I have my copy too, is designed for a lifespan, commonly 1 to a few years. The next step up to explore would be Burst Binding which is the individual folded signatures glued into the spine.

Only the binding machine changes as perfect binding cuts off the folded spine portion anyway which is created on the Signature folders. (If Sheet Fed printed)

A book that is designed for a life time, not that any of us have another period that long in front of us, is to have the signatures stitched into a case bound hard cover version.

That is why many books are released that way and when sales wane, at that point the perfect bound copy gets released as that market segment, doesn't tend to value books as a life long investment.

Burst Binding will increase the cost marginally but should not be prohibitive considering your market recognizes the value you bring to this industry.

Wiro and Spiral binding is likely to me more costly and can look "tacky" like and old Lyman reloader book.
John
PS: Got mine last night and have only flicked through it so far.
_________________________
Enjoying hunting more....
Worrying about cartridges less....

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#11907692 - 03/18/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: AussieGunWriter]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41334
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
John,

Thanks very much for your input, as I was actually thinking about contacting you about this question. We have looked into spiral binding, since we've done it with three of Eileen's cookbooks, but it would indeed be very expensive for a book this size--and since the shipped price is already $32.50, it would increase the price to over $35, which is a definite stick-shock level these days. The Burst Binding sounds like a good deal.

However, we are also thinking of giving the next printing a wider margin on the spine side, for anybody who wants to have their own copy spiral-bound.

Hope you enjoy your copy!
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11907953 - 03/18/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
AussieGunWriter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 5478
John,
On that basis, with a wider margin you have another cheaper option if the reader doesn't mind, that being, to have the inner edge stapled. Maybe even 2 staples would be adequate but you will need an old time printer these days to find the find of stitcher I am referring to.

Some binders also apply a tape strip over the staples along the spine and wraparound to prevent scratches and minor cuts. You would have seen that on some older style heavier covered books already.

Only downside it is is handwork and not automated but could also be done in smaller batches to spread the costs?
John
_________________________
Enjoying hunting more....
Worrying about cartridges less....

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#11908781 - 03/18/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
RiverRider Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 946
Would it be impractical to offer your books in different bindings, MD?

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#11909044 - 03/19/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
snowchaser61 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 380
Loc: New England
I ordered Gack , Troubleshooting , and Looney news on the 15th. I can't wait for them to get here. I am catching up on looney news fast! Lots of great info in there. Thanks J.B.

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#11909104 - 03/19/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
OSU_Sig Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 3908
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By ingwe
No. but it would be easier to lay flat on the loading bench for easy reference. grin

Which is exactly the reason I had mine wire bound.

I believe it was 7x57Steve who gave me the idea initially.
_________________________
Yeah, I'm a rifle loony.

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#11910674 - 03/19/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: RiverRider]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41334
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
RiverRider,

From what I hear from readers, the vast majority are fine with the present version. Let's say 10% aren't, which is a far higher percentage than we've heard from even after asking here. Any sort of manufacturing (including printing books) always results in a lower cost the more units are made in a single run. If we took 10% of our average print run and had it spiral bound, the cost would be hiugher per book.

We decided early on to get our books printed in the U.S. rather than overseas, even though it costs more, and to offer a delivered price up-front, rather than adding "shipping and handling costs" afterward, as so many Internet companies do. We've also been printing and selling books for more than a decade now, and haven't raised prices. Both printing and shipping costs have gone up considerably, to the point where we're going to have to raise prices sometime in the next couple of years.

Am pretty sure that if we offered spiral-bound copies AND raised our prices to adjust for the past decade's cost increases, spiral-bound of copies of GACK would have to be priced around $45-50 delivered, a big jump over our present price of $32.50. So most likely we'll keep printing them the same way, though with a larger back-margin to leave more room for customers who get them spiral-bound.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11913224 - 03/20/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: Mule Deer]
338Rules Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 625
Loc: NE Alberta
MD : OK my 2 Loonies -

Love the book, but hated the shipping cost to Canada.

For me, I'm especially impressed with the coverage of some of the obscure ( to me ) calibers, with the insights that you present so succinctly.

I was, and still am focused on the sections dealing with the .280 .338s and .22-250 ; My personal favourites.

If you are planning on a Bigger ( & Better ) Book of Gack, I would highly recommend a pdf type format with printable loading pages.

Updates for new sections, like Pet Loads, but new age e-format OK

Don't know how you would control distribution, but the savings on shipping alone would be well worth it - ;-)

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#11914189 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: 338Rules]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41334
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
338Rules,

All interesting ideas--which we've considered!

We feel your pain on shipping to Canada. When we first started the riflesandrecipes website a decade ago, mailing a book to Canada was almost as cheap as mailing it in the U.S., but it now costs almost 10 times as much to mail a book to Canada as it does inside the U.S. In fact, we have several Canadian customers who live fairly close to the border who rent post-office boxes in the U.S., just so they can get stuff they order from U.S. companies without paying an arm and a leg.

But there are several problems with e-printing. One for us is that it tends to garble data--and data is a major part of our publishing, whether handloads or recipes.

The other problems are how to keep it from being pirated, and how to make any money. The last is part of the reason e-books have dropped considerably in popularity over the past three years, when they once looked like the future of publishing: Major book publishers must actually charge pretty close to their prices for new printed books to make e-books worthwhile.

At the same time, many readers started going back to paper books. Surveys have found most of these report "screen burn-out." Much of their day is spent on computers or their smart-phone, and when they get home and want to read something, they're tired of looking at screens.

This may be even more true of hunting/shooting writing. I had an interesting talk with the owner of a major hunting/shooting publishing company at the Safari Club Convention last month. He started e-printing several books a few years ago, when it started to become a hot deal, and reports sales have dropped--and even at their peak, revenues from his e-books were never more than a tiny percentage of his company's profit.

We've had e-printing books on our radar for several years now, but haven't done it for all of the above reasons, plus the fact that the number of our readers who've requested e-books can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Our own small venture into e-publishing, our quarterly "magazine" RIFLE LOONY NEWS, has never grown much since we started it almost a decade ago, despite only costing $8 a year. We sold more copies of GUN GACK in its the first month than we have RLN subscribers, which indicates our readers prefer paper.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11914364 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
RiverRider Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 946
Folks have preferences for nearly anything and everything, I think. I am the same. I prefer vanilla ice cream, but you won't see a bowl of chocolate melt in front of me. When I shop for something to read, the binding of the reading material is probably the very last thing I would think of, but I might opt for hardcover if it's something I want to keep. I'd suggest that what you're doing now is working fine, MD.

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#11914407 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
5sdad Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 22770
Loc: South of Minnesota
John - I have some thoughts on the whole thread (naturally). First off, as I've said before, it's a great book.
On the binding issue, I am fine with the current system, but I do see the point of being able to keep the book flat in use. As to wire spirals, I have seen too many of them become flattened through abuse to the point where it is very difficult to turn the pages without damaging them. The large, plastic spirals are better in this regard, but less desirable in others.

I salute your desire to have books printed here in the U.S.

I also salute your decision to present the book in an "out the door" price, with no shipping or "handling fees" which in reality are just "hey, give us some extra money fees". Those commercials where they are so kind as to give you a second product FREE (just pay a separate - secret - handling fee) are transparent robbery.

I think that your assessment of e-books is spot on. I think that it is not only myself and my fellow dinosaurs who prefer to hold a book in our hands.

Finally, it is refreshing to find a producer of any kind who not only listens to his customers, but actually solicits their opinions.

Best, John
_________________________
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.

Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)

Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.

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#11914464 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: Mule Deer]
Azar Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 1306
Loc: Utah
John,

I have to agree with the "screen burn-out". I figured this out more than 20 years ago when the world wide web became the hot new thing. I didn't like reading on a screen if I could get the same material in a book. Less eye-strain, more comfortable chairs, what have you. I even like the smell and tactile feel of a book. I am still this way and prefer to get my copies of Handloader magazine in print form. The only thing I prefer to have in electronic format is technical documentation as it makes it easy to search and find what you are looking for rather quickly. While "Gun Gack" straddles that line I will continue to order the print form of your books regardless of whether you offer an electronic edition.

For our Canadian brethren, would it be possible to contract publishing to a second publisher that resides in Canada? I don't know if you have a contract with the original that would prohibit this, but perhaps it would alleviate some of the rising shipping costs? But then again, maybe that would be more trouble than it's worth...
_________________________
Shoot as if your first shot is the only shot you'll get.

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#11914937 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: 5sdad]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41334
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
5sdad,

Thanks for your post. One other little bit of evidence concerning e-books and our customers is that we've sold more of the paper copies of RIFLE LOONY NEWS: THE FIRST FIVE YEARS than we have subscribers! And the book costs a lot more than a year's subscription to the e-version, especially when considering that every back issue comes with a subscription.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11914946 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: Azar]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41334
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Azar,

One thing I forgot to mention is that one book store in British Columbia carries some of our books, and stores can amortize shipping costs by order a number of books. As I recall, that connection occurred because a reader suggested hunters would buy 'em. If we could find a distributor in Canada it would really help, but so far no luck.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11914963 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
Jerseyboy Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 261
Loc: People's Republic of New Jerse...
I don't know about everyone else, but I like to have a book in my hands. I have a desktop computer, two tablets, and a smart phone. I still prefer paper pages! Yes, I'm old fashioned.

I have most of the books Eileen and John offer and have sent them as gifts. I'm sorry, but an e-book gift doesn't cut it!

I'm not older than dirt, but I remember when mud was invented.
_________________________
NRA Endowment Life Member

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#11915351 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: Azar]
Prwlr Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 3006
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Originally Posted By Azar
I even like the smell and tactile feel of a book.


^^^^^^^^^
This

Though I am enjoying using my Kindle Paperwhite with Kindle unlimited ($120/yr). It allows me to "rent" many books which I could not afford to purchase. I can read 8-10 books a month easily. Including some reloading manuals such as the ABC's of Reloading.
_________________________
Ed

A person who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes the person who never asks is a fool forever.

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#11915432 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: Jerseyboy]
Pugs Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 14081
Loc: Maryland :(
Originally Posted By Jerseyboy
I don't know about everyone else, but I like to have a book in my hands. I have a desktop computer, two tablets, and a smart phone. I still prefer paper pages! Yes, I'm old fashioned.

I have most of the books Eileen and John offer and have sent them as gifts. I'm sorry, but an e-book gift doesn't cut it!


Agreed and as I was fooling around in the shop another + to spiral binding came to mind since my copy often sits on my workbench open to an article or section and gets read a few pages at time. Sure, I can easily stick a bookmark in John but you ask! grin
_________________________
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. - Winston Churchill

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#11915942 - 03/21/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
GreggH Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 414
Loc: Columbia, SC
Received my copy the other day and am enjoying it. Great job Mule Deer.

GreggH

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#11916989 - 03/22/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: GreggH]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 41334
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Thanks!

Am planning to publish GACK II in 2018 or 2019, some of the decision depending on when Eileen gets her next game cookbook together. This year we're publishing THE BIG BOOK OF BIG GAME HUNTING, which will be just about exactly the size of GUN GACK and contain a mix of advice and hunting adventure.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#11916998 - 03/22/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: Mule Deer]
ingwe Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 67180
Loc: Southwestern Montucky
Originally Posted By Mule Deer
Thanks!

Am planning to publish GACK II in 2018 or 2019, some of the decision depending on when Eileen gets her next game cookbook together. This year we're publishing THE BIG BOOK OF BIG GAME HUNTING, which will be just about exactly the size of GUN GACK and contain a mix of advice and hunting adventure.


DUDE! I will look forward to both!
_________________________
He spoke in tears of 15 years his dog and him traveled about. The dog up and died. She up and died....After 20 years he still grieves.

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#11917084 - 03/22/17 Re: THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK [Re: ingwe]
RevMike Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 3112
Originally Posted By ingwe
Originally Posted By Mule Deer
Thanks!

Am planning to publish GACK II in 2018 or 2019, some of the decision depending on when Eileen gets her next game cookbook together. This year we're publishing THE BIG BOOK OF BIG GAME HUNTING, which will be just about exactly the size of GUN GACK and contain a mix of advice and hunting adventure.


DUDE! I will look forward to both!


^^^^This!!^^^^

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