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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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You can see it in their eyes. My neighbor has pits (in kennels, in their living room) They drove way out to western SD to get a bull terrier/pit mix off a reservation that was tied to a tree and left for dead. I stopped over at their place to borrow a tool and they brought him out and said how nice he was. I was stroking him between the eyes during our conversation and he was wagging his tail. I looked down at him and his eyes went from brownish to pure black. I told the neighbor "Get him away. He's going to bite" The neighbor said "haha no he won't, he's nice" I pulled my hand as quickly as he went for it and only ended up with scraped fingers. Little blood. My point is, no matter how much you think these dogs are good, you never know when there will be a fire in the attic. Reminds me of my Chinese sister in law who was certain that my Doberman (an absolutely friendly dog) was aggressive and would attack her, based on her understanding of the breed. One day, afraid of my Doberman, she arrived for a visit and slowly creeped open the door from the garage leading to the laundry room. My Doberman watched this with pricked ears and on full alert. Then, very quietly and slowly, she poked only the top of her head past the edge of the door to peer inside, just up to where one eye passed the edge. My dog immediately detected that someone with ill intentions was sneaking into the house and charged toward the door, barking and snarling. She quickly pulled back and slammed the door closed. She then concluded that this was proof he was no good and that she was right about the breed. Act weird, scared, and suspicious around most dogs and, unless the dog already knows you, you should expect an aggressive reaction of some kind. In fact, that's how agitators behave around dogs they're assisting in training for protection work. It's designed to rouse the initial aggressive reaction towards suspiciously behaving people (followed by the agitator running away in apparent terror of the dog), which aggressive reaction is then praised by the handler as though the dog was the hero who saved the day. Your prejudgement of the dog, based on breed, caused a fear reaction in you, followed by suspicious behavior picked up on by the dog. Based on this, you should limit yourself to interactions with only the softest of breeds.
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Got it. And that is sensible reply. But would you trust that dog if it got loose and was running around the neighborhood with other dogs and little kids? Can you say for sure that it won't freak out like a lot of pits do? With little kids? Absolutely. I trust my pit around children more than i do strangers around kids. We have soooo many sleep-overs at our house (btw daughter in middle school and son in elementary) kids visiting used to be almost weekly. Now, it's more often during summer b/c of homework, etc. He doesn't run off anymore and was never a problem when he did. Anyway, we have kids that aren't raised around dogs (or any pets really) that have stayed over and our pit just walks up to 'em and leans his head next to them. He's pretty gentle - doesn't jump up on people, etc. We've had kids pull on his lips, ears, tail and he just sorta walks off. Mostly he will come lay beside me if he's all "peopled out". If we're outside (me in the garage or under one of our cars) and kids come riding by often they will walk over to where's laying in the sun. By the time i see 'em, he is usually sitting up and licking the kids as they pet him. Do i trust him with other dogs? Yep - he's always up for a game of "you sniff my starfish and i'll sniff yours". Though he won't leave the yard/driveway or even cross the sidewalk to be friendly. On one occasion about a month ago this guy was walking a couple dogs (one GSD and the other i don't really know what kind) past my house. Anyway, my dog must have stood up (his packing blanket bed is usually maybe 25' from the side walk) and I heard this guys dogs going nuts. They had pulled their owner into my driveway and my dog hopped up to play a little brown-eye sniffing. Once I heard the ruckus I turned to see all that and dashed over. So this guy was trying to muscle his dogs outta my driveway as mine just stayed where he was - about 5' from his packing-blanket bed. I will say he had his back hairs all up and was looking "intently". Being neighborly (though I'd never seen him before) I said, "Sorry!". He replies, "You oughta control your dog better". I was thinking WTF?!? - I told him keep his animals outta my drive or the next time they'll get shot. I then praised my dog for restraining himself and he got a nice treat.
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Irving - yer dogs look great!!!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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We have a pitbull mix i got as an 8-week-old pup.
I never let him outside of the fenced back yard unless i was there. For the 1st 9 months or so, he would run out to "meet" other dogs walking by and I would immediately intervene (sprinting to engage). He didn't want to "fight", just do the normal butt-smelling stuff.
Understandably, the passersby did not know that hence my instant running out to secure him and apologizing profusely (then instilling hefty negative reinforcement).
However, after nine-ten months of getting his head literally hammered (not literally by a hammer...just my hand), he learned unconditionally I was the alpha. We also were lavish in loving on him - he thinks he's a lap dog..... at 85lbs, he's a bit much!
I had consulted a police K9 trainer i personally know about socializing and training strong-willed dogs. As I had participated in some of their "training events" (I was a bad-guy wearing a padded suit!) multiple times I had seen my friend use some seemingly too-rough discipline on his 105lb Belgian Shepherd (a sharp crack on the head via his 6 D-cell MagLite). He assured me then the dog was OK and some needed a little more "convincing" than others. He just seemed strange, but he had been a K9 trainer for over 20 years and was well-regarded in police K9 circles (he was a well-known trainer in the state i lived at the time).
He encouraged me to have my young children involved in the leash training i had learned from him as well. It was simply making the dog sit if he pulled the leash at all. With the added pronged pinch collar to assert the dog's low position on the authority "totem-pole" our dog learned very quickly who was who in the "pack" pecking order.
It has all worked very well and our "dangerous" pitbull is very well adjusted (we semi-frequently have 25-35 people at our house for my wife's work functions). He is very social and loves being petted (and fed!).
When i am working outside on our never-ending landscaping projects/updates, he will just lay on the and driveway in the sun. If another dog walks by on the sidewalk, he remains sitting and doesn't even stand up.
But all this positive behavior came after a year of (seemingly harsh) head-cracking negative reinforcement of unapproved behaviors.
He is a superb watch dog though. Our neighbors (we share a fence with) have came up the stairs to our front door (when we weren't home) and reported he was nothing but 85lbs of popping teeth and growling/barking.
It took nearly two years for our dog to accept our friends who come to take care of our chickens (and have known him since our adoption) when we weren't home. Now, they board him at their house (they have 3 very small kids) and he protects their house and kids the same as at ours and recognizes them as Alpha's as well.
It all takes a lot of time investment, but is well worth it.
Incidentally, my wife is his "favorite" and he is usually not more than a few steps from her. However, he often shadows me (like now as he lays at the other end of the couch). In fact, if i lay on the floor he will be instantly come over to me and try to lick me to death.
He knows he is loved, but had to learn the "hard" way. It was suggested you are playing with fire. I'm not sure if you agree with that, but if not, why did you take all of these elaborate precautions in handling the pit?
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I won't pass judgement on all pitbulls, but I would watch for any signs that might indicate trouble ahead.
That's just it. There is rarely ever a sign that something bad might happen. Yeah.... they are the best pet ever, until they aren't. Clyde Have to agree Co-worker just had to have the vet give his the green needle. It was getting increasingly aggressive and he had to choose between the dog and his toddler daughter. Training wasn't helping and the no-kill shelters wouldn't take the dog.
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You can see it in their eyes. My neighbor has pits (in kennels, in their living room) They drove way out to western SD to get a bull terrier/pit mix off a reservation that was tied to a tree and left for dead. I stopped over at their place to borrow a tool and they brought him out and said how nice he was. I was stroking him between the eyes during our conversation and he was wagging his tail. I looked down at him and his eyes went from brownish to pure black. I told the neighbor "Get him away. He's going to bite" The neighbor said "haha no he won't, he's nice" I pulled my hand as quickly as he went for it and only ended up with scraped fingers. Little blood. My point is, no matter how much you think these dogs are good, you never know when there will be a fire in the attic. Your prejudgement of the dog, based on breed, caused a fear reaction in you, followed by suspicious behavior picked up on by the dog. Based on this, you should limit yourself to interactions with only the softest of breeds. That's what you took from that? Jeezus F'in Christ. So it was his fault, not the dog? I suppose if that mutt sensed the same fear from a child and attacked the child, that would not be the fault of the dog either? Thankfully not everyone needs to compensate for penis size by owning a breed that is not "soft".
Guns are responsible for killing as much as Rosie O'Donnel's fork is responsible for her being FAT.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2010
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Have owned and trained around 10 dogs in life
Never once had had to beat the crap out a dog or thump on the head to get it to listen and obey.
You can't be with an aggressive powerful dog 24 hrs a day
What happens when you're not there to thump it and it sees a dog or child it is programmed by decades of genetics to kill?
Last edited by ribka; 03/26/17.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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If our Pit even remotely did anything that communicated non-compliance or reluctance to obey orders (which are precursors to aggression) I am watching and he gets a thump on the head. Nothing asserts alpha to a pit like continued thumps to their noggin'. Your combination of breed selection and handler error (dum-asserie) could be a real beotch. Good luck!
Epstein didn't kill himself.
"Play Cinnamon Girl you Sonuvabitch!"
Biden didn't win the election.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I would consider myself a dog person. Right now I have 3 lazing around the room while everyone else is asleep. We have 6 dogs, 3 of them rescues. One of those is a Doberman that has a very protective urge that I am working on getting a handle on.
I have been around a few pits. One was a buddy's in college. Definitely one of the most obedient dogs I have ever been around. Another is a client's dog that has been raised with kids all over on a ranch.
Honestly, I would/did trust these dogs personally. Not with my kid.
I would consider getting a pit or perhaps rescuing one later in life when there are no small people around. Never when there are kids around regularly. I have seen the prey drive kick in with these dogs. Incredible drive and aggression. Incredible focus to go along with that and it's an unreal combination.
Last edited by Tarkio; 03/26/17.
Montana MOFO
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
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You can see it in their eyes. My neighbor has pits (in kennels, in their living room) They drove way out to western SD to get a bull terrier/pit mix off a reservation that was tied to a tree and left for dead. I stopped over at their place to borrow a tool and they brought him out and said how nice he was. I was stroking him between the eyes during our conversation and he was wagging his tail. I looked down at him and his eyes went from brownish to pure black. I told the neighbor "Get him away. He's going to bite" The neighbor said "haha no he won't, he's nice" I pulled my hand as quickly as he went for it and only ended up with scraped fingers. Little blood. My point is, no matter how much you think these dogs are good, you never know when there will be a fire in the attic. Reminds me of my Chinese sister in law who was certain that my Doberman (an absolutely friendly dog) was aggressive and would attack her, based on her understanding of the breed. One day, afraid of my Doberman, she arrived for a visit and slowly creeped open the door from the garage leading to the laundry room. My Doberman watched this with pricked ears and on full alert. Then, very quietly and slowly, she poked only the top of her head past the edge of the door to peer inside, just up to where one eye passed the edge. My dog immediately detected that someone with ill intentions was sneaking into the house and charged toward the door, barking and snarling. She quickly pulled back and slammed the door closed. She then concluded that this was proof he was no good and that she was right about the breed. Act weird, scared, and suspicious around most dogs and, unless the dog already knows you, you should expect an aggressive reaction of some kind. In fact, that's how agitators behave around dogs they're assisting in training for protection work. It's designed to rouse the initial aggressive reaction towards suspiciously behaving people (followed by the agitator running away in apparent terror of the dog), which aggressive reaction is then praised by the handler as though the dog was the hero who saved the day. Your prejudgement of the dog, based on breed, caused a fear reaction in you, followed by suspicious behavior picked up on by the dog. Based on this, you should limit yourself to interactions with only the softest of breeds. Whatever dumbass. I was perfectly fine with that dog until it changed its demeanor. I do admit that I was almost attacked by a big doberman at a make shift "bait shop" in Montana once due to irresponsible owners and that has changed my perception of strange dogs. But to say I was acting suspicious is laughable and you are a F'ing Moron. P.S. It's nice that you pointed out that your sister in law is Chinese. That made your whole story make more sense.
The deer hunter does not notice the mountains
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" - Isoroku Yamamoto
There sure are a lot of America haters that want to live here...
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Do i trust him with other dogs? Yep - he's always up for a game of "you sniff my starfish and i'll sniff yours".
OK. THAT was funny! LMAO
The deer hunter does not notice the mountains
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" - Isoroku Yamamoto
There sure are a lot of America haters that want to live here...
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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to say I was acting suspicious is laughable and you are a F'ing Moron. TRH has been the resident moron extraordinaire, kinda' strange on this particular subject ( and a few others ) for a long time. .....I don't see him getting any brighter about this, either. The OP is making a mistake, taking that loosely wired, ticking time bomb in. ...one 24hrCF opinion,...nothing more. GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
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Reminds me of my Chinese sister in law who was certain that my Doberman (an absolutely friendly dog) was aggressive and would attack her, based on her understanding of the breed. ..
Chinese kill and eat dogs like westerners eat beef burgers.. she's probably used to dogs always being on basic instinct survival/aggressive mode ..
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
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Reminds me of my Chinese sister in law who was certain that my Doberman (an absolutely friendly dog) was aggressive and would attack her, based on her understanding of the breed. ..
Chinese kill and eat dogs like westerners eat beef burgers.. she's probably used to dogs always being on basic instinct survival/aggressive mode .. LOL!!
The deer hunter does not notice the mountains
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" - Isoroku Yamamoto
There sure are a lot of America haters that want to live here...
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Campfire Outfitter
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Have owned and trained around 10 dogs in life Never once had had to beat the crap out a dog or thump on the head to get it to listen and obey. You can't be with an aggressive powerful dog 24 hrs a day What happens when you're not there to thump it and it sees a dog or child it is programmed by decades of genetics to kill? No offence to 325, but the LEO that 325 learnt that technique from, probably needed regular hitting over the head himself for anything to sink in. IF I had a family dog that required such style of police K9 training & discipline to keep it in check, then I got myself the wrong dog.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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We have a pitbull mix i got as an 8-week-old pup.
I never let him outside of the fenced back yard unless i was there. For the 1st 9 months or so, he would run out to "meet" other dogs walking by and I would immediately intervene (sprinting to engage). He didn't want to "fight", just do the normal butt-smelling stuff.
Understandably, the passersby did not know that hence my instant running out to secure him and apologizing profusely (then instilling hefty negative reinforcement).
However, after nine-ten months of getting his head literally hammered (not literally by a hammer...just my hand), he learned unconditionally I was the alpha. We also were lavish in loving on him - he thinks he's a lap dog..... at 85lbs, he's a bit much!
I had consulted a police K9 trainer i personally know about socializing and training strong-willed dogs. As I had participated in some of their "training events" (I was a bad-guy wearing a padded suit!) multiple times I had seen my friend use some seemingly too-rough discipline on his 105lb Belgian Shepherd (a sharp crack on the head via his 6 D-cell MagLite). He assured me then the dog was OK and some needed a little more "convincing" than others. He just seemed strange, but he had been a K9 trainer for over 20 years and was well-regarded in police K9 circles (he was a well-known trainer in the state i lived at the time).
He encouraged me to have my young children involved in the leash training i had learned from him as well. It was simply making the dog sit if he pulled the leash at all. With the added pronged pinch collar to assert the dog's low position on the authority "totem-pole" our dog learned very quickly who was who in the "pack" pecking order.
It has all worked very well and our "dangerous" pitbull is very well adjusted (we semi-frequently have 25-35 people at our house for my wife's work functions). He is very social and loves being petted (and fed!).
When i am working outside on our never-ending landscaping projects/updates, he will just lay on the and driveway in the sun. If another dog walks by on the sidewalk, he remains sitting and doesn't even stand up.
But all this positive behavior came after a year of (seemingly harsh) head-cracking negative reinforcement of unapproved behaviors.
He is a superb watch dog though. Our neighbors (we share a fence with) have came up the stairs to our front door (when we weren't home) and reported he was nothing but 85lbs of popping teeth and growling/barking.
It took nearly two years for our dog to accept our friends who come to take care of our chickens (and have known him since our adoption) when we weren't home. Now, they board him at their house (they have 3 very small kids) and he protects their house and kids the same as at ours and recognizes them as Alpha's as well.
It all takes a lot of time investment, but is well worth it.
Incidentally, my wife is his "favorite" and he is usually not more than a few steps from her. However, he often shadows me (like now as he lays at the other end of the couch). In fact, if i lay on the floor he will be instantly come over to me and try to lick me to death.
He knows he is loved, but had to learn the "hard" way. It was suggested you are playing with fire. I'm not sure if you agree with that, but if not, why did you take all of these elaborate precautions in handling the pit? These "precautions" are reasonable and prudent steps to take with just about any large strong breed or mix. I had a lab/rot/border collie/golden retriever mix, his dad was 130lb so I knew he would be large and strong ( he ran between 90-100lbs when grown) . I did everything I could while he was young (starting at about the 6 or 8 week mark.) I just about "put the fear of god" in him and as far as he was concerned I was god. He was one of the smartest and most obedient dogs I've ever had or known. Yet I did not leave him around people he didn't know and had to warn people to not go in the backyard without me or someone he knew was in charge. A repairman made the mistake of thinking he could just go get a tool or something he left without having my roommate go with him. Guess what, he got bit. Nice guy though, he had a sense of personal responsibility and said it was his fault. Any Every dog, (even small ones, just because) should be trained to have manners and obedience. I abhor untrained dogs and believe their owners should be sent to "retraining" or maybe Shock Therapy. Nothing worse than an untrained dog, barky, or even aggressive, no matter the size. Well, maybe untrained children are worse than an untrained dog. Sorry thing is it's not even that difficult, just takes time and a little dedication. That said, I volunteered at a "Bully" rescue in Fresno while there a couple of winters. We had dogs that only certain people could feed or clean the cage. There were certain dogs I would avoid but the majority were just dogs. We own whippets now and I wouldn't trust them unsupervised around kids they didn't know. To the OP, good luck with the new dog, keep your eyes open and be ready. Geno PS, isn't it a wonder what poor backyard breeding can to a dog line. There's so much aggressiveness bred into so many of the pit lines it would take a few decades to breed them all back to "nice".
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
member of the cabal of dysfunctional squirrels?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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No one seen that coming, especially not me.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire Outfitter
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I got chewed up bad by a pit bull 51 years ago. Whenever I see one, I get ready to draw my weapon.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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PS, isn't it a wonder what poor backyard breeding can to a dog line. There's so much aggressiveness bred into so many of the pit lines it would take a few decades to breed them all back to "nice".
Yep, in the old days pits that showed aggression to people were culled immediately, part of the reason if was told being that officials at dog fights had to be able to reach in to separate the dogs when needed, the other part of the reason being a bad pit was a danger to everybody. Pits were so trusted that in the South especially you gave one to your kids to keep them safe, like Petey in the Little Rascals.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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PS, isn't it a wonder what poor backyard breeding can to a dog line. There's so much aggressiveness bred into so many of the pit lines it would take a few decades to breed them all back to "nice".
Yep, in the old days pits that showed aggression to people were culled immediately, part of the reason if was told being that officials at dog fights had to be able to reach in to separate the dogs when needed, the other part of the reason being a bad pit was a danger to everybody. Pits were so trusted that in the South especially you gave one to your kids to keep them safe, like Petey in the Little Rascals. Birdwatcher, that picture is worth a thousand words at least. What a wonderful set of films/shows that was. Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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