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I should probably stay out of this.....but WTH, I got nothing else to do right now!

To my mind, the argument of irreducible complexity holds some merit. I was doing some spring cleaning in the shop today and was doing some thinking on this topic. I was thinking about archaeology and the discovery of lost cities and the like. Some of these sights are completely lost to history, we don't know who built them, only a rough idea of when and no idea why. Still, we can say with certainty that they were built by an intelligent species, presumably humans. Why can we be certain of that? Because they are put together and engineered in a way that we know cannot happen by accident. No one could argue with any credibility that these massive structures are the result of random chance, shaped by wind and water. Humans, animals, the earth and the entire universe are impossibly more complex than even the most impressive structure, so I find it highly improbable that there was no intelligence driving it.

The second point that I don't see discussed often is WHY? Even if we know HOW, the more important question is why. Even if evolution is totally correct, the question of why remains. Why should life have begun at all? Suppose it happened by accident, why did it then continue to evolve? Why would a simple single cell be dissatisfied with its current state and evolve into something else? The standard answer is that life evolves to better suit its environment and to better propagate its species. Fine, but why? Why should it want to do any of that? Why should any living creature care that another takes its place and carries on the species? Something must be driving it to do so, or else it would simply live out its life as best it could and die. I say this about the most basic of life forms, which really can't be said to possess the ability to think and reason, but when you begin to look at humans it becomes even more absurd.

Why do humans have things like emotions, wants and desires? Why do we crave fun and excitement? It doesn't make any logical sense at all, from a strictly scientific point of view. If we are simply a highly evolves species who's only real function is to propagate, then evolution did a piss poor job. All those extra abilities and functions we have are our undoing. Wanting to have fun kills us. It makes us do things that distract us from the task at hand, namely making babies. It would make far more sense for us to be like insects, for example ants or bee's. We would be born, grow quickly to maturity and immediately begin to breed. When not breeding we would work cooperatively as much as humanly possible to build our colonies and collect food for our young. That would make sense, from an evolutionary standpoint, if there is no intelligence that has programmed us, for lack of a better term, to act differently. In a sense we are like a cnc machine, we can do all sorts of cool stuff but if there is no data input, nothing comes out. Who programmed our DNA to act in ways that are not only unnecessary but potentially harmful to us? Obviously it is these very traits that make our lives as humans interesting and enjoyable, but who cares?

So, if we can see that in order or complex structures to be built and intricate parts to be machined, there must be an intelligent force at the controls, why does the same not apply to the universe?

I think a big part of the God problem comes from the limitations of our human mind. For example, try to think of a color you've never seen, something completely different than anything you've seen before. No matter how hard you try, you just end up mixing colors you already know into something that looks like something you've already seen. The same problem crops up when we try to think of a higher intelligence. Since humans are the highest form of intelligence that we know(SOME humans...) we have a really hard time trying to imagine what something vastly more intelligent might look like. We invariably end up with some sort of super human, bigger,smarter and with super powers, but still somehow human-ish. For a lot of people, that just seems absurd, and I agree. We try to explain that God must be an infinite being, not bound by the laws of the universe as we know them, not tied to a physical body etc but somehow that image of the big guy in the sky still creeps back in. Most people can't hope to follow the work of the best astrophysicist or understand string theory, myself included. Even those who can, and are at the top of their field, are constantly searching for answers and solutions to things that they still don't understand. Seems to me that if such a "God" being exists,and did indeed egineer all that is, the chances of us being able to wrap our heads around it and understand it completely are pretty small.

I also know that no matter how hard I try, I can never be completely objective or unbiased in my beliefs and views. Things that we are taught and believe as children are incredibly powerful, and many otherwise intelligent people can believe in utter nonsense, because questioning those beliefs is incredibly uncomfortable. Humans do not enjoy discomfort, and most will do anything they can to avoid it. Physical discomfort is easier to handle than what I guess you could call intellectual discomfort. With physical discomfort, we know what the problem is and generally have some idea of when it will end or how to bring it to an end. When faced with the discomfort of not the thread and it came knowing what to believe, or fearing that what you believe may be wrong, many people will rather grasp onto something that they find comfort in than to continue farther down rabbit hole, not knowing what they'll find or if they should believe it when they find it. When you add in the idea of an immortal soul, and the potential eternal torment of said soul, it becomes overwhelming for many. The easiest solution is to either find enough evidence, that you personally find believable, that no higher intelligence than the human exists, or that it does exist and you are in its good graces and will be taken care of.

If I had to bet, I would put my money on everyone being wrong. I don't think anyone has it all figured out, or understand a fraction of whats really out there. I have my beliefs, and I'm pretty sure many of them are wrong. I hope I can get a lot more answers before its all over.

I should probably stay out of this.....but WTH, I got nothing else to do right now!

To my mind, the argument of irreducible complexity holds some merit. I was doing some spring cleaning in the shop today and was doing some thinking on this topic. I was thinking about archaeology and the discovery of lost cities and the like. Some of these sights are completely lost to history, we don't know who built them, only a rough idea of when and no idea why. Still, we can say with certainty that they were built by an intelligent species, presumably humans. Why can we be certain of that? Because they are put together and engineered in a way that we know cannot happen by accident. No one could argue with any credibility that these massive structures are the result of random chance, shaped by wind and water. Humans, animals, the earth and the entire universe are impossibly more complex than even the most impressive structure, so I find it highly improbable that there was no intelligence driving it.

The second point that I don't see discussed often is WHY? Even if we know HOW, the more important question is why. Even if evolution is totally correct, the question of why remains. Why should life have begun at all? Suppose it happened by accident, why did it then continue to evolve? Why would a simple single cell be dissatisfied with its current state and evolve into something else? The standard answer is that life evolves to better suit its environment and to better propagate its species. Fine, but why? Why should it want to do any of that? Why should any living creature care that another takes its place and carries on the species? Something must be driving it to do so, or else it would simply live out its life as best it could and die. I say this about the most basic of life forms, which really can't be said to possess the ability to think and reason, but when you begin to look at humans it becomes even more absurd.

Why do humans have things like emotions, wants and desires? Why do we crave fun and excitement? It doesn't make any logical sense at all, from a strictly scientific point of view. If we are simply a highly evolves species who's only real function is to propagate, then evolution did a piss poor job. All those extra abilities and functions we have are our undoing. Wanting to have fun kills us. It makes us do things that distract us from the task at hand, namely making babies. It would make far more sense for us to be like insects, for example ants or bee's. We would be born, grow quickly to maturity and immediately begin to breed. When not breeding we would work cooperatively as much as humanly possible to build our colonies and collect food for our young. That would make sense, from an evolutionary standpoint, if there is no intelligence that has programmed us, for lack of a better term, to act differently. In a sense we are like a cnc machine, we can do all sorts of cool stuff but if there is no data input, nothing comes out. Who programmed our DNA to act in ways that are not only unnecessary but potentially harmful to us? Obviously it is these very traits that make our lives as humans interesting and enjoyable, but who cares?

So, if we can see that in order or complex structures to be built and intricate parts to be machined, there must be an intelligent force at the controls, why does the same not apply to the universe?

I think a big part of the God problem comes from the limitations of our human mind. For example, try to think of a color you've never seen, something completely different than anything you've seen before. No matter how hard you try, you just end up mixing colors you already know into something that looks like something you've already seen. The same problem crops up when we try to think of a higher intelligence. Since humans are the highest form of intelligence that we know(SOME humans...) we have a really hard time trying to imagine what something vastly more intelligent might look like. We invariably end up with some sort of super human, bigger,smarter and with super powers, but still somehow human-ish. For a lot of people, that just seems absurd, and I agree. We try to explain that God must be an infinite being, not bound by the laws of the universe as we know them, not tied to a physical body etc but somehow that image of the big guy in the sky still creeps back in. Most people can't hope to follow the work of the best astrophysicist or understand string theory, myself included. Even those who can, and are at the top of their field, are constantly searching for answers and solutions to things that they still don't understand. Seems to me that if such a "God" being exists,and did indeed egineer all that is, the chances of us being able to wrap our heads around it and understand it completely are pretty small.

I also know that no matter how hard I try, I can never be completely objective or unbiased in my beliefs and views. Things that we are taught and believe as children are incredibly powerful, and many otherwise intelligent people can believe in utter nonsense, because questioning those beliefs is incredibly uncomfortable. Humans do not enjoy discomfort, and most will do anything they can to avoid it. Physical discomfort is easier to handle than what I guess you could call intellectual discomfort. With physical discomfort, we know what the problem is and generally have some idea of when it will end or how to bring it to an end. When faced with the discomfort of not knowing what to believe, or fearing that what you believe may be wrong, many people will rather grasp onto something that they find comfort in than to continue farther down rabbit hole, not knowing what they'll find or if they should believe it when they find it. When you add in the idea of an immortal soul, and the potential eternal torment of said soul, it becomes overwhelming for many. The easiest solution is to either find enough evidence, that you personally find believable, that no higher intelligence than the human exists, or that it does exist and you are in its good graces and will be taken care of.

If I had to bet, I would put my money on everyone being wrong. I don't think anyone has it all figured out, or understand a fraction of whats really out there. I have my beliefs, and I'm pretty sure many of them are wrong. I hope I can get a lot more answers before its all over.

The answers you need are in the Bible.

Better by far to admit to the contradictions in it and point out that they do not detract from its core message, summed up in John 3:16.

I should probably stay out of this.....but WTH, I got nothing else to do right now!

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If I had to bet, I would put my money on everyone being wrong. I don't think anyone has it all figured out, or understand a fraction of whats really out there. I have my beliefs, and I'm pretty sure many of them are wrong. I hope I can get a lot more answers before its all over.

"Preachers and Teachers seldom answer a bible question properly. They should respond;"Ask Jesus"."

How would you know whether they answered a Bible question properly? You talk to Jesus a lot?

Good summation.

Explain how it properly concerns you and I'll answer.

You are still avoiding the question of why you chose to be an Atheist.

Your claim of "no evidence to support it" is B.S.

The default position regarding God is Agnosticism, not Atheism.

Why did you choose Atheism, not Agnosticism?

Ask Jes u s.