I'll use my friend,Miles,to make the point:

If you tell me that a long time ago Miles died, was buried, and then rose from the grave, I can't testify to the validity of that.

But.......if Miles is settin' in a chair next to me, I can guarantee you he is alive today, and that's what's important to me.

nicely put...

He IS RISEN!

dave

Gene since you honored me to make a point, I will try to make one also. I have heard lots of people talk about the soul being saved for a new body after the resurrection, and how it would be impossible. We humans do basically the same thing, by transferring info from one computer to another, through the air by phone or Bluetooth, or other methods. AND, I don't suppose that we are nowhere near as smart as God. miles

Miles, when I was about three years old Mama made some gingerbread. Nobody could have convinced me that this world held anything better than having all the gingerbread and cold milk I wanted.

Then I discovered other things as I grew older, some of them having to do with girls, that made gingerbread pale in comparison.

Our speculation about the hereafter is sort of like me and my gingerbread, I expect.

I figger that for someone that created an entire, vast, universe out of nothing with just a thought, the promises of the Bible are a piece of cake.

Whenever I have my doubts, I just stop and look around me at how perfect nature is, and realize that it didn't just "happen" or evolve. Someone, a much higher being, is responsible, and if He can do that, He can certainly give us life after death.

PRAISE BE TO THE LORD FOR HE IS RISEN, HALLELUJAH.

He is risen indeed!

Happy Easter folks.

I love the fact Easter happens in Spring when flowers are returning from their graves. Nothing makes me feel more thankful than a beautiful day, fields full of colors, budding trees and the return of life. Coincidence?

I believe in Jesus,folks. I am very science based myself but science has never explained the wonderment of all we see adequately . I find the big bang theory more unbelievable as time passes...getting something from nothing-chemically. All the science in this world will tell you this is not possible.Until they come up with something more credible I will stick with the act of creation...Tony + Happy Easter

We serve risen Savior! Happy Easter!

Happy Easter, brothers and friends

Happy Easter my friends.

Yes, yes and yes. Well said comerade and Happy Easter to my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

HAPPPY EASTER my friends!!!
My kids are 7 and under... I explained yesterday that today is a more important day to Christian faith than Christmas.

Gene, Miles - how are you guys?

Regarding God and his power, I love this quote:

Doing good here. I bet those kids are growing up. Been a while since I have seen them. miles

What a day - EASTER !!
And what's more, two wise and deep fellows that I very much respect are at the top of a thread marking this day - and waxing reflective.

Christ has risen - He has risen indeed ! May the overwhelming significance of this day fill your heart and soul with joy !

Thank God for Easter!

Doing well, Doc.

The older kids probably remember the tornado, don't they? Since they only saw the aftermath, they may have thought Ed's place always looked like that.😀

Today is the proof of the promise.
Doesn't matter if the historical date is correct or not. Calendars are made by men.
Jesus rose and walked among men again.

The day that happened to save all from their sins that try to tug their flesh from the spirit He gave them.

I always found it interesting that Easter coincides with the coming of Spring, but I'm up North.

First Sunday, after the first full moon, after the Spring Solstice. And Christmas is 3 days after the Winter Solstice.

Either way, the Lamb and homemade Merlot today will be great!

Could someone post about the pope that changed the pagan holidays to Christian?

The date changes nothing from the fact however.

Here everything is starting to green up, bulbs are popping, the birds are returning. It's a particularly beautiful day here today.

I'm not sure we could give credit to these evolution to a single man. This took centuries. At 1st Nicea it was established that Christian Holidays would be separate from Jewish Holidays, but the current method for calculating the date for Easter didn't arise until the 8th century. It was fist prescribed by Bebe, who was a monk, not a Pope.

It is written.

Jude 1:10

International Version
Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct--as irrational animals do--will destroy them. (Irrational meaning unthinking in some translations).

I think the Big Bang makes perfect sense from a religious perspective. God said Bang and there it was.

Science teaches us that we can't get something from nothing, that's a law. And the law went into effect after God created the rules.

Happy Redemption Day everyone.





P

I was about to ask, to quote Paul Harvey, "Who made the bang?"
Happy Easter, folks - and yes He is Risen!
This house is joyous - 4 grandkids, daughter, son-in-law. sister-in-law, the injured sister-in-law is still improving (They are still keeping her "incarcerated", though, pending a bit of therapy) - "The Warden" is doing a great job of "riding herd"

Men study science to disprove God who made it.

Men deny God to convince themselves they do not have to account to Him.

Because it's close to Passover (Last Supper). Better question is why is Passover in the Spring. My guess is that it's because of Spring.

Well, on the top half anyway

nearly everything is based on the "topside" thinking because that's where most of civilization has always been. asia, middle east, europe, north america...

sunrise services in the morning, easter egg hunts in the afternoon equals a pretty good pairing or so it would seem.

No.

The Scientific method is the best method to discover truth, what ever that may be.

Regardless of any gods, there are 7 billion other people upon this plant to whom we are accountable.

You can be accountable to 7 billion if you choose. I'm accountable to a handful in this life........less than that, I figure, when I'm reduced to ash.

George

Jesus is the Word and the Word is Truth.

True. But some of those handful are granted a badge and gun to enforce the laws we've collectively agreed upon.

George,

One thing I've always respected about you is your ability to identify what you can influence, and what you cannot not, and be satisfied when you are exerting the best positive within influence with your sphere, and don't get wrapped up in those thing you can't.

Happy Easter.

Easter Truce.

We can pick this up another day.

It took some 'time' to realize that the more an individual can close the gap between his "sphere of influence" and his "sphere of concern", that less stress/more satisfaction is the end result. I'm genetically predisposed to a heart attack anyway ..........I need all the help I can get .

Happy Easter, Sir.

..........and to Gene, Miles, Terry etc. (all better religious men than I) enjoy your Easter with friends and family.

Happy Easter to all. Hasbeen

Use your science and create me a blade of grass......

A simple life form.

I've created a whole yard full of grass.

It's worked pretty well.

What is the "it" that's closer to Passover? Is the second sentence a question or a statement? What does the pronoun "it" refer to in the third sentence?

Created = Grew (not).

Have a safe Easter everyone.

Remember, if you have a resurrection lasting more than 4 hours, seek immediate medical attention........

Thanks Steel, and may God bless you, even more.

the threads that curdog manifests are always very interesting, even if a bit controversial from time to time.

the hindus with their ageless wisdom offers that there was no beginning and no end. that contradicts with more than a few beliefs on here. but, on the other hand, take solace in the fact they are not calling for a "big-bang" theory or anything of the sort. the jury of 12 members are still out, and no early signs of resolution i might add.

the fifth or Grand Unifying Theory might be the one we're looking for. it's been postulated, and named but never really fully identified, nor detailed verbiage appended to it. so, maybe in there, the Grand Unifying theory resides the "god particle." who? it's on the internet for those interested.

Might make for a really Happy Easter.

I said create, not grow

Happy Easter to all.

Antelope sniper, Classy move on the one day truce. 👍

given the differences of DNA details among average humans, and other food sources such as goat, lamb, pork, chicken, fish, etc. i believe the differences could be significant.

one day we'll finally obtain a profile on all DNA results. the story will be made public.

I have an example. Lots of parents out there have created simple life forms.

LMAO!

You have different definitions for words than He.

I believe. Others have the free will not to believe. My father did not. I have been a believer since I was a child and hid under the bed to read the little New Testament the Gideons gave us in elementary school. I'm 68 now and my belief is stronger every day, especially since I can glimpse the end of the road for me.

Gay used to mean one thing. Now it means another.

You're really rocking the stupid today.

My condolences.

Ok. He created a lawn.

No worries.

And on the seventh day He watched Eve mow it.

he attempted to get his first wife Lileth to mow it, but she told him to go GFY. he optioned for a second wife, for better or worse.

the grass continued to grow, at least for a spell.

then the babies began to pop out, and here we are.

Great contribution to one of the most significant acts of all time,

what, lileth abandoning adam, or adam asking for a re-try, namely hah-vah? (eva for the english speakers who walk amongst us).

lot of folks haven't fully researched their history. they take the truth based upon what "someone" told them in times past.

From the same book of fables that has tales of talking beasts and plants...lol

Number 22:30

"30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day?"


Judges 9

8 One day the trees went out to anoint a king for themselves. They said to the olive tree, ‘Be our king.’
9 “But the olive tree answered, ‘Should I give up my oil, by which both gods and humans are honored, to hold sway over the trees?’
10 “Next, the trees said to the fig tree, ‘Come and be our king.’
11 “But the fig tree replied, ‘Should I give up my fruit, so good and sweet, to hold sway over the trees?’
12 “Then the trees said to the vine, ‘Come and be our king.’
13 “But the vine answered, ‘Should I give up my wine, which cheers both gods and humans, to hold sway over the trees?’
14 “Finally all the trees said to the thornbush, ‘Come and be our king.’
15 “The thornbush said to the trees, ‘If you really want to anoint me king over you, come and take refuge in my shade;

You are way off-track with Einstein...Best you read part of the letter Einstein penned just before his death.

Princeton, 3. 1. 1954

" The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable,
but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change it.
... For me, the unadulterated Jewish religion, like every other religion, is an incarnation of primitive superstitions."

He didn't have to.

A blessed Easter to everyone

I am just saying that some people believe and some don't. I believe and see miracles everywhere, doesn't matter how Einstein felt, his quote (if his) holds true. I have read his thoughts on the matter.

Gene, Miles, the kids are indeed getting big. There is a 4th one you didn't know, we were at Ed's place last year... it was cleaner, hahaha.

You owe your total existence to about 8" of top soil and the fact that it rains every so often.

"Your Creation". Heh.

Not me!

"We" - do you have a mouse in your pocket?

If I define my " self" as being my "will", as long as my will is aligned with the will of God, as I understand Him, then I truly am accountable to no other power on earth.

Absent that alignment, I'm at the mercy of my own weak self and subject to ever who knows which of my buttons to push to manipulate me into doing their will.

The only real freedom to be found is in God.

The joke is told of the contest between God and the devil. Satan says to God, “I bet I can make a human being just as well as you can.”
God says, “Okay, I’ll take you up on your bet.”
So they are just about ready to start the contest, and Satan and God both take up handfuls of dirt from the earth, when God says to Satan, “Whoa, what are you doing, there, make your own dirt!”





P

Ha ha! I like that one.

You quoted Einstein, only to then say the things he stated dont matter.
so WTF even quote him?

Reminds me of the christians who ignore verse from their own scripture,
because it doesnt support their own narrative.

Should you be mocking Gods own divine will creation, that being the Devil?

Christians often complain about the devil and all the 'evil' in this world, but according to scripture such only exists
due to Gods own will...how about christians show some heart-felt appreciation for what God has given you?..

God could have destroyed the fallen Lucifer, but instead he gave him rule of the earth and its inhabitants...If you roll back further,
God knowingly created an arch Angel destined to fall and create havoc in both Heaven and on earth.

He also created us with the free will to believe or not. He could have done it different, and made it without choice. We Humans can not understand His plan. miles

Just 'believing' is not enough.
and yes free will, but God already knew all people would fail him, in fact everybody is a sinner and failure in Gods eyes.
Those who will repent and those won't who repent, was already known by God even before they or their ancestors were born.





Many on 24CF have purported to know God, ...some even talk like a judge, jury and executioner appointed by God.

Simple. He wanted the stupid suckers to be led astray.

Well, i guess i should say, the really smart folks who lean onto their own understanding and reject belief and faith. They considering only the physical aspect of life while rejecting and denying the spiritual aspect.


"Be not forgetful to provide for strangers; for therefore many have entertained angels unaware."

Guess I'm not going to get my blade of grass...

Just got a couple million for you.

See what I mean?...people on 24CF who claim to know God and what he's planning and thinking.



Imagine those strangers and angels gathering with the Bibles talking donkey and talking plants.
what would the topic be?

Look at all who claim to talk to him on a regular basis, but hear many different messages.

All humans are fools engaged in folly in Gods eyes, (yes that includes you.)
and why would a loving compassionate Jesus want weak misguided humans led astray?
Isn't it the role of Jesus to gather the lost & scattered to his flock?

Not a failure, just human. We make mistakes, sure, but we also make the right choice every once in awhile. I like to think that God celebrates our good choices.

I'm a dad, and that has helped me in my quest to come closer to (I never will, of course, but I can get closer) understanding God.

I love my boy to a depth that's hard to believe. I feel great when I see him make good choices and I'm sad when he makes bad choices, but I love him just the same regardless. I think God looks at us in much the same way.




P

And why would it be that the more scientific education a person has, the less they belief theistic claims?

I think you couldn't be more wrong. We have an amazing capacity for wonderful acts, but also an awful potential for unspeakable savagery. It's what we choose that makes the difference. Do we choose to feed the evil beast inside us all, or do we choose to deny the evil and embrace compassion, benevolence, and love?

God didn't create us to be fools, that's just an insult to both God and His creation. I get it, though, I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine, and that's okay.





P

As a pharmaceutical rep I talk to a lot of doctors every day. Most of them believe in God. I think they have a heightened appreciation for the complexity of the human body and have a hard time believing that we developed from primordial ooze.





P

We can agree on your first paragraph, just not your second.

Works for me.

And here's a pic of a couple of antelope I sniped:








P

For you to imply that you're an authority on the religious beliefs of physicians is absurd and dishonest.

Cant handle a joke, huh?

When you transgress you have erred and failed God, if you were not a failure in Gods eyes you wouldn't require his grace.




You are not disagreeing with me , you are disagreeing with the word of God.

1 Corinthians

18 "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain."




Scripture indicates different. By the word of God you are a fool yet your vanity won't allow you to acknowledge it.

Proverbs 18:2

"A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion".

Try as much as you might with what in your human opinion are wonderful acts, but you will never meet the std. required
to be worthy of God. And try as much as you might, but you as a human cannot avoid the evil beast inside yourself from
influencing parts of your life in one way or another and to some degree or another.

You are an unworthy sinner just the same as every other worm human past, present or future. What you may consider as
good works or wonderful acts, are just folly, and do not find you or anyone else favor with God.

I'm sold.

That. He didnt want the "smart" ones in Heaven, those who lean onto their own understanding.

John 3-16.

Starman, I would like to see that scripture.

Now, as to "pastors" and molesting, it surely has happened, as they too are sinners.

But you referred to the church. The church, to Him,is His followers.

You should have referred to priests, not pastors, as you were indicting The Church, not His church. His church follows His word, the bible, not mans interpretation of same.

People, including "wise" bible scholars, spend their lives trying to understand Gods thoughts and the "real" meanings of His words when they are blind to what He directs. The "wise" try to interpret His thoughts while they reject His instruction to them, then, as He says, they try to justify what they do, using His words to try and trip Him up.

Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and He is in Heaven.

Who says to lay down our arms when He said Luke 22:36New International Version (NIV)

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Who says to do away with the death penalty as it is killing, when He said for the elders of the church to hunt down and stone murderers.

Who said Thou shalt not kill, when He said, Thou shalt not commit murder?

The wolf truly does come in sheeps clothing and many false prophets will come in His name and many will be led astray and there will be a great gnashing of teeth.

Let those who would hear, take ear and take heed. His words were not spoken in vain and were spoken as a warning for those who add to or subtract from His words and should invoke fear.

Amen.

Remember, He asked "Who will stand up for me?"

There are millions who will stand up for their 'church'.

Nice goats PS.

I hope you have some more good luck this year.

Jax,

The talking donkey is in Numbers:

22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
22:29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
22:30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.
22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

Not really, pedophile pastors claim to be part of the broad church of Christ...and a pastor is in some places
otherwise know as a parish priest...Parish priests , have what is referred to as 'pastoral care' of their parish or community.



All those yrs as a christian and you don't know your Bible....
Judges 9:8
Numbers 22:30

do you also need help finding the talking snake?

One can believe , but still not commit themselves to such...scripture states the devil believes in God,
but is not committed to God, many 'believer' humans are the same.

You start out:"How about Christians........".

How about you?

Do you only know Satan because you read about him?

And........ I've never seen a post from you expressing gratitude to God for anything.

Easy answer, A. S. PRIDE.

Not just pride in yourself, but prizing human intelligence above wisdom, which comes from God.

I would say that Satan believed.

Matthew 7:21

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Surely, one who heals others in the name of Jesus has to believe in Jesus, yet the Lord says He will tell some of them to depart as He never knew them.

Its obvious His definition of "believe" is different than our understanding of the word. He must mean that believing means knowing that even If you believe in Him you have to also "believe" you have to do Gods bidding and do it.

"A whoremonger will not enter into the kingdom of heaven" even if they believe in Jesus Christ.

Another scripture reveals 'I tell you to not only know the word, but do it, in order that you be not deceived'.

Did these not 'believe' Jesus was Christ?

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day,‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness'.

Lawlessness- those not following His laws, His instruction, doing His Fathers bidding, "loving above all things".

Believing Jesus existed and believing on or in Him isnt the same thing. Believing in Him, people will believe His words and that they have to believe they have to do His bidding to be saved, or Satan would be saved.

Thanks AS and Starman. I am familiar with those verses. I was thinking Starman indicated scripture relating donkeys conversing/discussing things with plants.

One of the pitfalls of the Bible. It has been translated so much that there are differences between what you might read and our common usage of the language. I don't try to make out like I understand it all, but I am aware that my reading might not be correct all of the time. I have had people try to explain parts of it when I did not believe their interpretation. miles

Thanks Miles. I know people who think all we have to do is believe Jesus died for us and rose on the third day.

My thinking is that we are remiss in dismissing His warning that we have to do the will of the Father.

Romans 10:9, If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Your ignorance of the translations is showing. All the Bibles I have were translated directly from the available Hebrew and Greek documents. That is except the Living Bible. That one is a paraphrase of the King James; which was translated from the original languages.

This is only because they get brainwashed beyond their ability to use logic. Many times I have challenged folks here to come up with two creationists Ph.D physical scientists who after they earned their doctorate became evolutionists and I will come up with a dozen evolutionist Ph.D physical scientists who after they earned their doctorate became creationists.

Bump.

Explain thou shalt not kill. miles

Yep, bad translation there for sure. I cant believe they put that in the KJV.

He said more accurately, Thou shalt not commit murder.

He also said, Thou shalt not be bear false witness against thy neighbor. In correctly repeated as thou shall not lie.

lot's of emphasis on Jesus and his Teachings on this thread and that is good.

as a descendent of a bunch of old-line calvinist types, it's come to my awareness that god in his infinite forms can save anyone and everyone he so chooses, and we can't do a single, solitary thing about it, pro or con.

that is, god runs his own show. we know that. he can save anyone he wishes, or not. after all he is running the operation as god would run such an operation.

we can define salvation as coming from the mighty war=god YHWH, his son Jesus, or the Holy Ghost (spirit?). or, any and all combinations, you choose. we couldn't avoid salvation if we tried, if god wanted us to have it, could we? beware: calvinistic thought is beginning to enter the picture.

of course if one accepts (& believes) that ritural & belief is enough, then so be it. no problem. just carry=on.

To infer the above from my statement is ludicrous.





P

Works for me.

And here's a pic of a couple of antelope I sniped:




P[/quote]

Nice goats PS.

I hope you have some more good luck this year. [/quote]


Not likely, Oregon requires a lot of points. I'm probably ten years away from my next tag, unless I get lucky.





P

Isn't it amazing though that these so-called scientists who spend billions of dollars researching and attempting to prove that there is no God fail at every step. Think of the billions of dollars spent on finding the "GOD" particle in Switzerland. How is that going for them?

on the quamtum end of the spectrum, "things" pop into and out of existence almost instantaneously, no? that is, what is real is a product of creation. creation comes from nothing, right?

in other words, does the pattern of "what isn't" define the reality of what is? or not? it's a serious debate raging amongst the people who dare to enter into a discussion about the world of quantum mechanics.

god in his infinite forms can save anyone and everyone he so chooses, and we can't do a single, solitary thing about it, pro or con.

that is, god runs his own show. we know that. he can save anyone he wishes, or not. after all he is running the operation as god would run such an operation.
. [/quote]

So, iow, do what you wanna do and forget His instruction, since it wont keep your ass from destruction. He isnt interested in if you abide in Him, He will pick and choose at His whim?

Well, He isnt a liar and He is just, so, youre wrong again, my friend.

So, iow, do what you wanna do and forget His instruction, since it wont keep your ass from destruction. He isnt interested in if you abide in Him, He will pick and choose at His whim?

Well, He isnt a liar and He is just, so, youre wrong again, my friend. [/quote]

just follow the rules, is that it? how about following the various catholitic rituals, will that get it? if one has to "believe" then one has to do something. no problem. believe it if you wish.

God, otherwise known as the Great Mystery, the trinity of Yhwh, jesus, and the holy ghost (spirit) works in their own domain. you can accept their ominipotence and your soul in their hands, or not. if you think something is required, then so be it. no argument from me, my fine friend. salvation is a free gift, or one has to do something for it (like beleiving, eating fish on friday, worshiping 5-7 days per week, etc.). and that's all good. work for your salvation through physical, mental or other types of work. no problem. carry=on.

Problem is that We can't think like Him, so no way that We can figure Him out. That is where faith enters. miles

They found it 5 years ago....

How God made it all is the mystery, not how to be saved. He had a book of instruction written and given to us. The Holy Bible.

Right, because no logic is required to send a rocket into orbit, or eliminate Small Pox.

lol. Bible = basic instructions before leaving urth. too funny.

ok, to run the subject into a different direction, just for discussion, back in the day there was one Jesus, working for YHWH, the mighty War-God. the population was what? i have no clue, honestly. maybe 2 million souls, more or less?

now, there's 7 billion plus souls, more or less occupying the earth? agree?

so, what's the trajectory? got one?

FOund what? How does that explain the creation of the universe? They were trying to justify spending untold billions in a very stupid fashion.

Who designed the creation DUH ?

good question. in fact, it's an excellent question. thank you for asking it. maybe someone will stumble along, and stand before us and tell us how it is.

He didnt work for God. He was God on earth working for us.

The trajectory revolves around the son.

ok. wonder when it might all begin? we know (and no offense) that xtianity hasn't ever been tried. agreed? it might work, given the right set of conditions? what set of conditions might that be? anyone know for sure?

der calvinistic theory/approach still works, that is god saves whomever he wants to save. do you disagree with that basic tenant?

It is written. It will be done.

Well, forgive me for mentioning it, but you are welcome to buy landowner permits for antelope in Texas.

so be it.

Father Russ had a good point on Sunday. He said that secular wisdom has it that "seeing is believing"; with religion, the wisdom is that "believing is seeing".

yep, at the final talley, whenever if ever that might be, if it's marked down as a great success, all those who contributed will be rewarded.

if it's a failure (and it could be?), all those who attempted success will still be rewarded, but not as much as if it was a true success.

in terms of a true success, the folks who worked hard to ensure it will be rewarded mightily. maybe even who knows what?

You are presuming it was designed.

Before you can claim that, you need to offer evidence for it.

http://photographyblogger.net/17-beautiful-pictures-of-sunflowers/

Even numbers of seeds and petals dictated by genes that give exact replicas of the same.

Roses that dont cross pollinate or intermingle (as people do). Made to be pleasing to the eye and smell. Intelligent design or random as hell.

http://flowerspictures.org/flower-pictures/roses/index.html Roses tha

I hope you understand that what you presented is a textbook example of an Argument from Ignorance....don't you?

None of it's designed. Design is a human concept. The whole notion is just another example of man's tendency toward arrogance and concreteness.

400 Billion stars in the Milky Way, two trillion galaxies in the observable universe, yet every Christian presumes their god looks like them and not one of the myriad of likely alien creatures.

Yea, just a little arrogance and conceit.

We dont presume, we know. Truth is, He told us so.

And what evidence do you have that your "source" is reliable?

Its Childish of you to say "every Christian"....... and you know it.

The only explanation you have ver offered is Not God


You

Whether one is christian or not, the instruction from the bible is clear to understand.
It does appear to indicate that God will not just choose people at random or at his whim.
Rather, certain obligations are required of a person by God, before he offers his grace.

with genuine sincere repentance(regret ,remorse) for ones transgressions, being one of them.

Would you feel better if I offered Zeus or leprechaun as a solution to everything? There's just as much evidence for those propositions as yours.

Besides, an alternative solution is not required to reject a given proposition. The proposition is not one of Zeus or leprechauns. Each of those propositions must stand or fall on their own merits.

Same for Big Bang Cosmology vs. God. Disproving one does not prove the other.

Clear instructions.

That's so funny.

Salvation is by faith alone.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:18, 36

Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:30-31

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16-17

A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:13

Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16

The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith. Galatians 3:11-12

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation is not by faith alone.

For you render to each one according to his works. Psalm 62:12
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin. Proverbs 10:16

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14

I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:10

When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. Ezekiel 18:27

I will judge you ... every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 18:30

Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matthew 12:37

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16:27

If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-46

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Luke 10:26-28

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:29

Who will render to each one according to his deeds.... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. Romans 2:6, 13

For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:15

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-25

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. 1 Peter 1:17

I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:23

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14

If I told you to explain Quantum Physics, but insisted you use only grade school arithmetic, you would laugh at me and tell me to get an education first.
.

YOu are spiritually blind and insist on evidence you can see with your eyes.

You are spiritually ignorant.

Willfully so.

in general and on average, it good the discussion goes, no matter which direction it takes.

we know for sure or nearly so that there's 7 billion "Eaters" down here on the Earth.

we know that the various christian, muslim, and other religions are competing for membership on the earth.

we know the earth is a finite place or space. we know that, based upon NASA imagery, etc.

so, now that we know where we are, and what it looks like from afar, what to do next?

Spiritually ignorant, can you even define that?

And here's the math, simple enough for an 80 year old:

maybe? so one has to "know" something first, is that it? what if i love God, but don't know how to best express it? what then? ARE You prepared to rule someone out of heaven because of lack of knowing? if so, fine. just asking.

Get up in the morning.
Go to work.
Take care of our families.

The idea of proof flies in the face of "faith". When the "faithful" line up behind proof, I become doubtful. The same can be said for truth, reason, and logic.

AS,
its kinda like going to a Gov dept. or Insurance Co.

Dont assume that the first form and information leaflet handed to you by the first person that greets you at the counter (that says "just full this out")
will be
1/ the only person you will need to talk to- or
2/ the only information you will need,- or
3/ the only redtape form that you will be required to fill out.!!.....-and
4/ everyone with good sense should show due dilligence...by making sure that they carefully
read the detailed CLAUSES and FINE PRINT on those forms and in the BIBLE....

yeah, yeah. and if enough income is earned, please pay your taxes to keep the IRS gun=toters away from your door. the IRS's sole responsibility is to ensure that the poor has gov't chits issued to them for their well-being. no?

Thousands of years ago, AS, He said His message of good news would be spread around the world. His miracles were seen by enough in the Holy Land to turn the Babylon of Rome and the mightiest army on earth toward the destruction of His Word and them. There was a reason He is alive and they have died. He even told us of naysayers like you. We know where you come from. You lean on your science, the science He made. He didnt want us to have scientific proof. If there were, even the stiff necked would believe. He doesnt need those without faith up there. As folks had faith as a little child in their parents, He expects the same from those He created if they want Him to provide for them. Did you, as a child, ask your parents for proof they made and cared for and would provide for you? They gave you life. He would give you everlasting life if you would trust Him as you once did them.

You nor anyone deserves PROOF. If you did He would provide it. None of us deserve it. He operates through the spirit. All of us have one. You have the choice of following it or the flesh- the physical if you wish. Beat your mighty chest and tell all you wish for proof. Then, wish in one hand and crap in the other.

It was written. It was done. Jesus died for all of us even you (but you deserve to see him leave the tomb). His word was spread over the world. A miracle was done before your eyes in your lifetime, that was promised ages ago.

Lean on your science and tell us it was a lucky guess by a bunch of itinerant goat herders. Now you know why He thinks as He does of the "wise". You are wise in your own eyes. You are blind because you want to be.

Aaron Hernandez was wise in his own eyes, and sadly, leaned on his own understanding.

Huge numbers of fulfilled prophecy; among other eveidences.

Miraculously unbelievable fulfilled prophecy. Let him with eyes see.
Amen.

there ain't been no positive develpments since before the beginning of the christian order.

folks walking around w/ camels, donkeys and herding sheep, goats, etc.

there ain't nothing changed. people living in tents, residing under scattered trees during the heat of the day.

those members of the Great Satan, and the Little Satan, so what if they are driving Lexus,Mercedes, chevyies, fords, etc. they're all heathen anyways. so what?

would we be better served to move back to the 5 th century? what to do with all the excess population that resides in the mega=cities? the mega=cities? what is that, pray tell?

it's time for ldrshp to step forward. what if there isn't any? what then?

If you are trying to convince the ignorant you might be successful. But the Bible student accepts all these verses and knows the rest of the story.

Hebrews 3:16-19
"For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Nice diatribe, but you provided no evidentiary support for any of it.

In addition, you completely avoided my previous question, regarding why should we believe the theistic claims of these specific texts. How can you demonstrate they are authoritative? What can you offer for independent corroboration?

There are thousands of other god claims, why this one?

We know the text have been extensively redacted (rewritten), combined and changed over time. What we call 4 four gospels are all by anomalous sources, and all we have is copies, of copies, of copies, of copies. We even know some of the canonized books are out-and-out forgeries.

So before you can claim this book tells you the mind of God, you must first establish it's reliability. If you cannot do that, our beliefs are without basis.

And "Believe the Bible because the Bible tells you to.", is called Circular Reasoning.

ok. fair enough. and we know that Moses didn't enter. was he a non-believer? could have been, and he was the ldr while walking away from the Philistines and their technology that protected/controlled the coast?

AS doesn't even accept the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth claiming He is a myth. That is truly willfully ignorant to use a Bible term.

Gus,
Put down the bong.

If you are not looking to move to Afghanistan, you already know the answer to this.

Ok,

Let's hear your single best fulfilled prophecy.

Right.

Since it's now commonly accepted by Bible Scholars that Moses did not exist, and The Exodus never happened.

You don't believe in any of the other thousands of religions.

I just go one religions further.

I never saw your post as i was busy typing. I will read it now.

I erred in my post when i said no one deserves faith and edited it to 'deserves proof'.

When you build something you get to dictate to it, not vice versa.

You aint the boss. The boss said no proof. The boss said have faith if you want to be saved. You dont have to. You can be your own boss, but you wont get saved. If He gave you proof everyone would know they have to do it or die. Then you'd be pissed at the boss about what he was making you do.

If i had proof i wouldnt show it to you. Everyone else has faith, if they want the good news.

Gus,

He didn't exist.

Just like the slaughter of the innocents never occurred, and the Romans never conducted a census requiring people to return to the place of their birth.

Heck,

The Gospels can't even agree upon the day of the Crucifixion.

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

Or, if you prefer the Latin:

"Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur"

there's a minor detail that keeps floating around the room. if one get's something, one has to do something? is that it? one has to believe if it can happen. to believe?

what if a human is a true human, but doesn't believe like the various catholic & protestant proponents? is he/she wrong, or just thinks differently? thinking differently removes one from salvation? is that the way it is? just asking.

i don't want to be removed from salvation because i think differently than the mainstream rank & file. is there anyone i can reach out to?

Ask God in prayer.

Bump.

Ask the Muslims.

According to their beliefs, if you don't believe like them you loose salvation.

Heck, they might even be nice enough to give you a Semtex vest so you can assure your life in paradise with 72 white grapes.

So which is it?

No one deserves proof, or you have proof due to prophecy?

For you render to each one according to his works. Psalm 62:12
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin. Proverbs 10:16

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14

I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:10

When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. Ezekiel 18:27

I will judge you ... every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 18:30

Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matthew 12:37

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16:27

If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-46

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Luke 10:26-28

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:29

Who will render to each one according to his deeds.... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. Romans 2:6, 13

For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:15

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-25

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. 1 Peter 1:17

I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:23

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14 [/quote]

If you are trying to convince the ignorant you might be successful. But the Bible student accepts all these verses and knows the rest of the story.

Hebrews 3:16-19
"For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. [/quote]

ok. fair enough. and we know that Moses didn't enter. was he a non-believer? could have been, and he was the ldr while walking away from the Philistines and their technology that protected/controlled the coast? [/quote]

Gus,

He didn't exist.

Just like the slaughter of the innocents never occurred, and the Romans never conducted a census requiring people to return to the place of their birth.

Heck,

The Gospels can't even agree upon the day of the Crucifixion. [/quote]

just the other day, read a posting about a chaldean archer assigned to the roman brigade in jerusalem. found and encountered a young hebrew girl. mary i think was her name. they became entwined, and a child was borne. maybe it was all circumstantial, i don't know. i wasn't there. but the record is available for scrutiny. maybe further research is needed?

Oh, so you have faith in those scientists who a few years ago discovered how a high wind could have parted the waters for Moses and his people. Of course, they neglected to explain why the wind would mysteriously pick up to the right speed from the right direction at just the right time and just thd right duration to let Moses and his crew through and then calmed down and caused the egyptians to drown.
Hey, they found a shallow shoal that got exposed in the wind proving it was explainable and therefore God didnt really part the waters. Ha. Your scientists, like those who predicted a 20 inch rise in the oceans by this time from 30 years ago.
The scientists John Bates, an acclaimed NOAA award winning one who denounced the global warming BS and chicanery.

AS, do you even know if your so called scientists were hired by Zero. You want to bet your life on a bunch of lying liberal progressive paid for dimocraps.

Yep. The wise lean on their own understanding. You were right again, Lord.

Gus,

There's at least 6 Mary's in the NT. It was a very common name, so it's no real surprise that a Roman soldier knocked one up. Heck it would be more surprising if the Roman Soldier were not taking an interest in the local girls.

relax. there ain't nothin' happening to the vorld. it's all status quo, cope setti.

just wake up tommorrow, drive to work, pay your taxes, and come home to spend time with your family. god is with you, more or less.

just look around, you know you are in good hands. right?

let's don't change a thing. we're good. don't rock the boat.

Hey Gus,

The thing to remember is that science models how things happen, not why. You start with this and this and that and you end up here. Why it works that way we don't know, we just know that it does, every time. Why is pretty much irrelevant scientifically speaking. To paraphrase Feynman the question is probably meaningless.

Stuff popping in and out of existence? Don't know that happens. Best we can say is that the equations work better when we include that in the model.

Like dark matter. Someone measures galactic mass and angular momentum, plugs it into Newton's equations, and says, "That's funny, it doesn't work."

So plug in an additional figure for mass and the dang equations work again. We can't observe it directly so let's call it "dark matter." And hope it exists or we're really missing something "bigly."

William G. Dever 'What Remains of the House That Albright Built?,' in George Ernest Wright, Frank Moore Cross, Edward Fay Campbell, Floyd Vivian Filson (eds.) The Biblical Archaeologist, American Schools of Oriental Research, Scholars Press, Vol. 56, No 1, 2 March 1993 pp.25-35, p.33: 'the overwhelming scholarly consensus today is that Moses is a mythical figure.

And this predates Zero.

I dont have the scientific proof you think you are so deserving of. I have the same proof as those in the Holy Land 2000 years ago. Proof enough for me in seeing the prophecies of the prophets from thousands of years ago and on through the prophecies given by Jesus having been fulfilled.

That would of course mean nothing to you, of course. If i predicted Apple stock would triple in a year and it did, you would predict it just a lucky guess.

Too bad you werent around a hundred years ago when they found the missing link- which when later tested proved to be an ancient pig tooth.

You believe those scientists and see what it gets you. I choose to believe their Creator. Im betting they have cigar stains in their underwear.

So you don't have a best prophecy you can offer.

If you could repeatably predict the performance of stocks that would be a demonstrated phenomena to be examined. Like wise, it there we repeatable consistent prophecies in the Bible, that would be a phenomena we could examine, but, you couldn't even come up with one worth examining.

Why do you believe there were Marys in the New Testament and yet reject the Central Figure of the New Testament? You're trying to convince those who believe there was no vigin birth by appealing to a rape for which there is no record.

Again you find those whom you agree with and present here as though what they believe alters history. You are like the Jehovah's Witness who don't believe in Romans using crosses for crucifixion.

Once again, you are just showing your ignorance. H. haroldcookii never received general acceptance within the scientific community, and was disproved by scientist, and a retraction was printed by scientist.

Unlike science, religion is "from god", and "perfect", and as a result, cannot admit when it is wrong.

I'm still waiting for the biblical retraction regarding The Firmament.

Unlike you, I follow the evidence. History is what it is, and you book of fables will not change it.

I did not say I believed they existed, but there are no less then 6 characters in the text with that name. In addition, if you would read a little more closely, I'm suggesting that if Gus's tale is true, there's no reason to believe it was a Mary associated with the NT. What's more likely that it was this one fictional Mary, or one of the thousand of other Mary's in the area? As for rape, that's YOUR WORD. All Gus said is they "became entwined". Why would you jump from that to rape?

Consider Daniel prophesied, by name, who would 160 years later command the rebuilding of the temple while it still stood. The temple was not destroyed until about a hundred years later. You, chose in advance, the Bible is a collection of myths. No matter how many facts are shown to you, you will use a rescuing devise to protect your world view.

Darn Gus, wrong again. Chitts happening. East is meeting west. Within 11 years Christ will have been here within 2000 years. 2000 years now, approximately since Jesus was born, buy the history of King Herods rule. 2000 years from Adam to Abraham and 2000 years from Abraham until Jesus.

6000 years from then until 2016-2027.

Trump has promised to keep Korea and Iran from developing nuclear weapons.

Zeros nuclear treaty with Iran promises we will defend their nuclear program from external aggression (Isreal). Another prophecy fulfilled in His saying when all nations turn against Israel it marks big trouble. Also, it has possibly come to pass that the Abomination of desolation has sat at the head of the house of Israel, if you consider israel his followers being the christians of the last christian nation on earth, the US, having had a moslem leader, or do we wait until a heathen sits on a throne in Jerusalem.

His word has been also spread to the 4 corners of the earth. Another sign of the end time as we know it.
All nations on earth have fulfilled Bible prophecy in turning against Israel, whether the Lord was referring to the nation of Israel or whether He was referring to all nations turning against all of the Israel He promised would be saved- the Christians.

You can watch the news and see things are coming to a head in the near future if you are the least bit familiar with the Scripture.

The authors recorded the facts. Because you have difficulty with the facts doesn't change them.

i just read about stuff in my seeking. some believes what they read, and some folks only believe a part of what they read. it's all good. we have choices to make.\

a chaldean archer working for the roman occupation impregnated Mary? i have no clue. i don't. but there's words written about the subject. we can deny it if we wish. no problem. just deny it.

But can your authors and text be believed?

Again, many discrepancies, and they can't even agree upon the day of the Crucifixion. Anonymous texts, many forged, and all we have is copies, of copies, of copies.....

Here's just a short list of 242 times End Times Predictions were wrong:

http://www.bible.ca/pre-date-setters.htm

AS,

You say you "follow the evidence." You seem to have some education and a scientific background.

You posted the video below and seemed to support the logic as you offered it up as support to one of your theses.

So, do you adhere to and support the logic shown in this video? You posted it and deemed it important to the discussion at hand.

Do you adhere to and support the logic displayed in the video?

A simple yes or no should suffice.

New International Version
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning ....

Psalm 116:11 1 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

I opened your link to find, not prophecies from God's Word by foolish people claiming to know something. Like I've posted many times. You start from the position the Bible is myth from the beginning to the end. And yet you can not explain the origin of the natural laws. You can't appeal to the idea, that's just the way it is because that is arbitrary.

Daniels dated to 180 to 200AD or even later.

It's not a prophecy when written after the fact.

Gus,

There's at least 6 Mary's in the NT. It was a very common name, so it's no real surprise that a Roman soldier knocked one up. Heck it would be more surprising if the Roman Soldier were not taking an interest in the local girls. [/quote]

Why do you believe there were Marys in the New Testament and yet reject the Central Figure of the New Testament? You're trying to convince those who believe there was no vigin birth by appealing to a rape for which there is no record.[/quote]

I did not say I believed they existed, but there are no less then 6 characters in the text with that name. So, was it a common name, or did the authors just have no imagination? [/quote]

The authors recorded the facts. Because you have difficulty with the facts doesn't change them. [/quote]



New International Version
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning ....

Psalm 116:11 1 I said in my haste, All men are liars. [/quote]

ok, so god saves who he wants, and doesn't save who he doesn't want. am i understanding you correctly? if so, you might know a little about 5 point calvinism? if not, surely 3 point stuff?

So your are resorting to threats?

Faith and threats. Is that all you have left?

I cannot explain, therefore Magic (or god(s)) is not an explanation and does not solve anything.

But if you are a Calvinist, in general, you believe God has already decided if you will be saved or not before he even creates you. You are saved or doomed before you've even taken your first breath because of how God's chosen to make you.

Nah, just assertion from biased scholarship. Do your research, there is plenty of evidence and scholarship to support a much earlier writing of Daniel.

But, back to the video. I have not yet seen your response.

Are you going to respond or not?

TF,
That video wasn't my first choice. There's a better one out there I just couldn't locate on short notice that explains it better. But it serves the purpose of presenting the math at a 4th grade level for Gene.

As for your question, it's ill formed. Science is not a religion so there's not need to "adhere" to a belief.

As an example I do not "adhere" to Newtonian physics, like you may "adhere" to the book of Romans. Newtonian physics is a useful tool, but we also understand, thanks to Einstein, it's an incomplete model of that phenomena.

What I presented above is a mathematical model supporting the hypothesis of how our known universe could form form "nothing", but at this point it has not been experimentally verified.

At this point, I find the "Universe From Nothing" hypothesis as laid out by Lawrence Krauss the most convincing, but if it is experimentally disproved tomorrow, then it will fall to the trash heap of history along with Marxism.

But just because I can't say I absolutely know something is true, I feel no need to substitute Magic for the answer just so I can claim I do.

This^^^.

Just a little prophesy that your grandfathers knew was impossible, was that Israel would become a nation and regain their homeland (3 times, actually). And by one vote they regained it in my fathers lifetime as the Bible predicted.

Then the Bible said for israel not to make treaties with their enemies as they would try to drive them into the sea. Then, the Lord fortold in the Bible how Isreal would be carried to safety as if on the wings of a eagle (the US). This happened in the 6 Day War, where by information provided by the US the Israelis defeated an attack by forces with ten times more troops, tanks and planes. But, you know, since the Lord had Israel fight for their survival in a physical manner and in hindsight we can explain how it happened you can profess it wasnt an act of God who You would require to have destroyed Israels enemy with lightening in order for you to believe He had a hand in it.

Tell me, AS, how many thousands of years people will be reading the good news about Moses never having really existed.

Good night.

What did I just post. You reject history to fit your preconceived idea.

In other words you don't have an explanation. At least as a creationist I can appeal to Someone Who is adequate to create everything there is including the laws of nature.

AS, that shows what God thinks of those pieces of dust in the wind "scientists" who said Moses didnt exist. There is another scientist every day wanting to get his name on a piece of paper.

In case you haven't noticed Marxism does have its adherence. So much foolishness to appeal to to reject God.

So, let me do a bit of interpreting. You admit this guy is wrong as can be.

Divides by zero and does not realize it is nonsense.

Also, note that this guy correctly (I think) describes nothing as nothing; no space, no mass, no light, no time etc, but then “…a small fluctuation occurs..” and presto, everything comes from “nothing” as a “small fluctuation” creates everything. More Magic Larry nonsense.

Oh, then this poor soul evidently believes that somehow “nature” can and did “find a way to divide by zero.”

I am at least glad you did try to put a little distance between and this poor old man.

Also, in other news, some folks think there may be as many as 7 Mary's in the NT. Somehow you think 6 is significant and then make more stupid and tasteless comment.

You seem to be in a mindless keyboard frenzy and need to slow down.

Please provide the reference for your prophecies so we can analyze the actual text as it applies to your claim(s).

I wouldn't say he's "wrong as hell", just doesn't do the best job.

I also said "at least 6", some count even more than your 7.

As for the "tasteless comments", you need to re-read who wrote what. Ringman was making the rape allegations, not me. In addition was I clear that I see no reason to associate this "Mary" who was entwined with a Roman Soldier with a Biblical character.

No.

I'm just better trained in the study of history than you.

Ringman,

Read what I wrote again.
I never said I don't have an explanation. I said substituting "I don't know" with "Magic", is not a pathway to truth.

Again, you appeal is to "Magic". Abracadabra, poof, the Universe existed. It was spoke into existence, the very definition of Magic.

As for my original starting point, you are just wrong, and you know you are wrong.

Only those who cant distinguish intelligent design from happenstance would be ignorant enough to think it ignorance.

Yes,
But notice the work you've chosen, "adherence adherents". It is their faith based adherence, and failure to follow the evidence, that allows them to continue to be wrong.

Those of us who understand the lack of design realize it's not so "intelligent".

A billion people spending their lives throwing yellow, green and brown paints at a canvas wont come up with the pattern of flowers He made to live and grow over and over the same again and again.

He begets order, by intelligent design, not the disorder of happenstance. Happenstance does not create life.

Tell me, AS, how many billions of your so called scientists with all the chemicals and elements and equipment known to mankind would it require for them to create a living organism?
And you think it happened by accident.

Evolution is not happenstance. It has a selective pressure called Natural Selection.

If you think evolution is happenstance, you don't understand evolution.

Tell me how a blade of grass became a cow.

All you are doing is extending your argument from ignorance. Just because Pythagoras couldn't control the weather, that didn't make the answer Zeus.

So you don't understand basic phylogeny either.

All I know is two retards can make another retard on Tequila Thursday.

I guess that's intelligent design.

How did an amoeba, a living organism mutate once to become plants and again to become vertebrates and again to become invertebrates. Tell me about the Twilight Zone.

That's Tequila Design.

Evolution just does us all a favor by increasing the offspring's odds of winning a Darwin Award.

When the amoeba mutated into an invertebrate then it had to mutate again into the same but opposite sex of invertebrate for them to propagate.

Same with the first vertebrate. It had to have two exact and opposite sex mutations.

What are the odds?

Its more likely youre "scientist" could produce life, well, maybe from flour and weevil eggs.

Again, you are displaying your ignorance. For you to suggest there was only a single mutation between something like an ameoba and a plant is beyond ignorant.

Are you another Young Earth Creationist who believes all this happened in just 6000 years?

Do you understand the Universe is over 13 billion years old, and the earth is over 4 billion years old?

Can you comprehend the time scales we are working with and the many quintillion of generations evolution would have to act upon fast reproducing life forms such as bacteria?

Evolution. A fish mutates and the scales are feathers on another critter. Then, of course, two more fish mate and have the same exact mutation except this time it is of course of the opposite sex. And of all the worlc these two birds are within the same square mile and can copulate and replicate. Viola, we got birds.

YGBFKM.

Any mutation to produce another species requires another exact and opposite sexed mutation for propagation.

Evolution acts upon populations, so your Banana Man, Ray Comfort argument doesn't work.

How many millions of years you figure humans have been on the earth through the ice ages and all. Why arent the eskimos adapted and growing hair like the polar bear? How many more billions of years you figure they'll get there.?

I think eskimos will continue to wear coats, and the one's who don't were coats will freeze to death, so there would be no reason for evolution to favor your proposed adaptation.

However, they have adapted to the cold in other ways. Short statue, barrel chested, thick fat layer, all to preserve heat.

You are so filled with error you don't even realize I am as convince as you are. The difference is you start with magic that nothing produced everything including conscienceness. I start with the scientific proposition that something greater than the effect was the cause.

You don't understand your own faith. Natural Selection was originally presented by a creationist who realized Something started this all. You appeal to nothing and come up with Natural Selection? How did this none existent Natural Selection decide what it was going to decide on when there was nothing to chose from?

Again, you are wrong.
If I push a single domino that topples a thousand, the effect is greater than the cause.

Also, you should google "butterfly effect".

Hes saying that eventually eskimos will have hair like a polar bear. They are already getting shorter and barrel chested. The islanders will soon start growing fins for helping get abalone and pearls.

Dayom. It woulda been more efficient if Eskimos woulda already been covered in hair and islanders coulda kept their gills.

Once again you can't even keep your sciences straight.

Cosmology, geology, abiogenesis and biology are all separate fields of study.

Attempting to apply biology to cosmology doesn't work.

I would prefer salvation, thank you, and google revelations.

I indicated no such thing.

Are you a Young Earth Creationist?

I'm familiar with Revelations. Is that supposed to be another threat?

I am an Eskimo, I am quite tall, have little body hair and look nothing like a polar bear.

So there you go.

RM, whats sad is that many like our friend and compatriot AS will never be able to be saved. He and others like him are excluded by God from a chance at salvation and are excluded from having a chance of eternal life. They arent allowed the chance to believe and have faith as we have, and are shut off with no chance. Unreal.

A thousand dominos falling is nothing more than a single domino falling a thousand times. It matters not to the domino and the affect is exactly the same as the initial domino fall, only repeated a thousand times. It's the way that the dominoes are arranged that is dramatic in affect.

While on the subject of interpreting.... I recall from before the reason you gave for putting your faith in Jesus.
yet scripture indicates you have adopted Jesus in your life for a misguided reason, for you cannot plan to
escape the judgement of God by turning to Jesus. - Your premise seems fundamentally flawed.



from:03/19/17

Truth here according to physics - the initial effect has zero to do with each of the following effects. No magnification.

Antelope Sniper:
"Cosmology, geology, abiogenesis and biology are all separate fields of study. Attempting to apply biology to cosmology doesn't work." Given that those are categories of scientific "study" formed and designated by man for the convenience of man's endeavors, the comment about "apply" very well may be true with regard to man's efforts. I have a hunch that a greater mind understands, relates and applies such factors in a very comprehensive manner - and that man's convenient categories may look puerile (at best) in comparison to the integration and understanding of the whole.

Mark 11:

12 "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon:
and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it."

- Why didnt Jesus just perform a miracle and make the out of season tree deliver him fruit?
- Why curse a tree just because it is following the seasons God created for it?
- How is it that God did not already know the tree was out of season and bare of fruit?
even the peasant inhabitants would know such fruit would be out of season.

God overestimated his ability when he created man.

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

All things make more sense to me with a little guidance from God. As I see it , Creation,Evolution,Quantum science-everything meshes together if I believe in a power that is not understandable. This is beyond our comprehension . God's gift of free will allows choose.I am follower of Jesus and when you believe in something greater it makes all choices easier.IMO

Denying the existence of a Spiritual Dimension condemns you to Spiritual Ignorance.

The evidence is within you.

So many will perish for the simple reason they will not ask God to fill their heart with the Holy Spirit if He does exist.
They dont want to have to change their ways.
They fear the truth and instead ask for proof, not even wanting to find it. Someday they will get their proof.

A S has commanded the ATTENTION of a half dozen members who are exactly his equal by any measure of importance.

Now, he can feel smug about "besting" them in an argument in which he has designated himself as the judge.

I'm gonna go search out some crappie and leave the "search for truth" or, perhaps more apt, mental masturbation, to those with nothing better to do.

One thing for sure, heaven doesn't have a minimum IQ requirement.

Please prove this.

We've gone through the before. You are forgetting the hours of intelligent energy that set up all the dominoes in the first place. Your argument is a sign of your total belief being fraught with problems!

Again you are obfuscating. You still want to start with nothing and end up with people. All that you mentioned are different branches of the same thing: Science. In order to have the credibility to talk about Natural Selection you first need to show how Natural got here, including natural laws. Like that one evolutionist Ph.D astronomer said jokingly, "You can only appeal to the tooth fairy so many times," when referring to the problems with evolution whether talking about the evolution of stars or people.

Upon what do you base this assertion? I used to be an atheistic evolutionist till it couldn't support itself with facts.

Very good characterization of that fellow's endeavor and methods. Trying to reason with a self-appointed judge is an exercise in human futility. Wish I could join you fishing today - higher allegiance calls.

And the highlighted shows your's, once again.

What do you do when you're not lying? Even lieberals have nothing on you.

Heck, I even provided foot notes!!

If you have a reputable modern scholarly source to the contrary, lets see it.

So your version of God is not anthropomorphic??

If he isn't what does he really look like, a slime monster from Alpha Centauri?

CCCC,

Ultimately every man judges for himself. You may attempt to disclaim your judgement by attributing them to an invisible friend, but that doesn't change that fact those judgments are ultimately your own.

Again,

What do you mean by spiritual. Spiritual is a very slippery word. Does it necessarily relate to religion and a belief in the un-falsifiable mystical beings, or can it include awe inspiring experiences such as the music or Mozart, the birth of your child, the tales of sacrifice from our troops.

Later tonight I plan to do some business research with my wife at a sushi restaurant. I hope the experience raises to the spiritual, and not just the mundane.

Again, you fail at every level.

None of this has anything to do with what I want, but what is indicated by the evidence. As for your assertion that one can only be credible on a subject if they know all the precursors, that's just non-sense.

If my son drops a glass on the floor covering it with shards, having witnessed the event, I know how the shards got there. It doesn't matter that I didn't buy the glass, or know what factory it came from, or that I don't know the ration of silica to sodium carbonate in the glass. I can answer no to all those questions, and still be knowledgeable about how the glass ended up on the floor.

If you really care about how evolution really operates, let me suggest an excellent source written by a Catholic with his PHD in Biology and current professor at Brown:

https://www.amazon.com/Biology-Kenn...amp;sr=8-2&keywords=biology+textbook

But you better hurry, there's only one copy left in stock.

The only problem here is your inability to grasp simple concepts.

Why do you choose to call that not understood higher power God? Why not call it "The Combined Standard Model"?

True.

And we have a long way to go before we've integrated it all.

Both religion and mysticism are like shadows of real Spirituality. You are a Spiritual as well as a physical being. Religion and mysticism are attempts to translate Spirituality into something more understandable to our finite minds when confronted with the Infinite.

The awe and admiration you mention speak to the Spiritual part of your being. You likely ascribe it to emotion, but underneath the emotion is something real.

Just as you cannot find words to describe a beautiful scene in nature that expresses EXACTLY how it affects you, so it is with the Spiritual Dimension. I can't describe the feeling of the first breath of fresh air after oxygen deprivation, but the deprivation is real and so is the air. It is the Breath that's indescribable.

A man's spirit will not rest until he comes to some agreement with his Creator.

A man can never understand his Creator, so he must attempt to understand himself, and in doing that, he finds the Creator.

A Rose by any other name is still a Rose isn't it?
At least it used to be, now days it's doesn't seem to matter...

We are mostly in agreement here. The real difference is you credit the result of us being here to an intelligence, and I see no evidence supporting that proposition.

Bible prophecieS fulfilled concerning Israel.

http://www.trackingbibleprophecy.org/israel.php

Yes.
That is the Third Law of Logic. Calling a Eunuch a transgender does change that fact that his still just a Eunuch.

Again,

Pick the one you consider the strongest, and let's discuss it.

I think this little prophesy about Ishmael has come to pass.

…11The angel of the LORD said to her further, "Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction. 12"He will be a wilddonkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers." 13Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"…

New American Standard Bible

So Spiritual means something that is non-mundane and nothing more?

Seems to me that the intellectually honest person who denies any afterlife or that which he cannot observe as per the laws of science would deny anything spiritual. Redefining it fromwhat its historically meant doesn't seem the way to go.

Genuine point not trying to be a dick... or maybe I misunderstand your beginning point?

Either way. Seems intellectually inconsistent if not dishonest.

Really?

The best you can come up with is a fictional character knocking up his fictional wife, at the age of 86?

What contemporary non-canonical sources do you have supporting your assertion that these specific events actually happened in he time and manner described?

AS,

The last time I discussed Bible prophecy with you concerned the prophecy against Tyre. You claimed it was not fulfilled. When I showed how it was indeed fulfilled you failed to admit that and then you came up with your own contorted view of what the scriptures said.

You simply would not admit you were wrong and then compounded your error with a clearly silly interpretation of the verses. Your pride will not allow you to see the truth.

If you get cornered, you will do the same thing. You will present YOUR OWN view of what the scriptures say and then judge all arguments to the contrary to be false. A recent clear example of this is when you declared Daniel to be written, let's see 160 to 200 or something AD. If you resort to weak arguments like this, you will never see any truth as your bias has blinded you. With a simple sweep of the hand, you declare all the prophecy in Daniel to be false. Kinda like debating a recalcitrant four year old who has no command of the subject being discussed.

Further, you seem to have no knowledge of your own and resort to a quick internet search of atheistic sites. I doubt you have any scholarly base of your own.

However, let's play.

LOL, I just saw your post above. Told you so.

Let's save ourselves some time and go back to the prophecy against Tyre. Why don't you tell us why that was not fulfilled and let us take a look at your logic.

As I said, like a four year old. Edit: No that's too harsh. A 14 year old is more like it.

A legend in his own mind.

Let me help with what is referred to as the : 'Two Chief World Systems'

The SPIRITUAL(sacred,consecrated) is that which is opposed to the PROFANE(or mundane,earthly, physical universe)

as such there is nothing dishonest or vague about the expression used by AS, well not to anyone with some reasonable background
understanding at least.




TF49 will back you Up on that...(and thats no matter how much lack of evidence there is and how flimsy it be, to base ones judgement on)
A christian can believe in complete nonsense illiterate peasant superstitions long proven as false by both science and theologians,
but that will still stand as that persons 'proof' of God...Essentially,christians have no accepted or agreed upon criteria as to what is minimally
required to prove God.. what they may judge to be 'proof', can just be based on what any feeble human mind can conjure up and hobble together.

03/14/17

In the prophecy you reference, explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre and that Tyre's land would never be built upon again. However, this never occurred. After a 13-year siege, Tyre compromised with Nebuchadnezzar and accepted his authority without being destroyed. Despite being conquered and razed by Alexander the Great 240 years later, Tyre still exists.

This alleged prophecy is just factually wrong.

AS,

You are totally incorrect and false in your statement.

This is what you say: "....explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre ...."

You have either never read Ezekiel 26 or you have a serious reading comprehension problem. Perhaps both.

Note that the verses are very clear about what NEB would do and what God or "I" will do. AS has either never read the verse or is just simply parroting something from some website of dubious standing.

You are misinterpreting the text. There are TWO actors moving against Tyre. One is Nebuchadnezzar. The other is God. Neb took his action and then God took his. You are incorrect when you say that Neb was to be the actor to completely destroy Tyre. The verses do not say that. But you take it the way you want and erect a false straw man to knock down.

Tyre was destroyed and you will not admit it.


I will help you out here. Note that the text says God will bring "many nations" against Tyre. Neb was brought against the city and then later "I" brought Alexander to complete the destruction of Tyre.

The prophecy stands. AS fails.

I've never understood all the fuse about the Prophet named Jesus.

Interesting intrusion by Sigmund there, as a fuse's purpose is to sacrifice itself to save something else from going up in flames.

Here, you fail. I do not at all disclaim judgment. I merely am able to acknowledge that I do not "know it all" in many matters (such as this) and, consequently, understand the falsity and futility of attempting to judge others from a weak standpoint. Try that lens, if you will.

As far as your last sentence...... get used to it if you are going to converse with A.S.

EFW,

What we call, or don't call, spiritual, or spirituality is all about the definition. Those are two of the most slippery words in the English language, which is why earlier I asked for a definition....

If your definition requires a supernatural element, then I see no evidence to support a belief in it. If not, then we have room for discussion.

Mom?

😂

I do not claim to know everything. I just attempt to align my belief with reality, and not with bronze age fairy tales.

I suspect the former standpoint is a stronger standpoint than the latter.

Spirituality, BY DEFINITION, is Supernatural.

And you know it.

TF, that's pretty weak. You would thing the all knowing creator of the Universe could at least give a clear prophecy. In order to be a true prophecy it must be clear, unambiguous, and only fulfillable at a single occurrence.

If I was to predict the U.S would fall, sometime in the future, and at the hand of some other nation, and a thousand years from now the U.S fell to a foreign power, is that really a prophecy? Of course not.

The only attacker Ezekial mentions by name is Nebuchadnezzar. No where in the prophecy does it mention Alexander. Now if it did mention a Macedonia named Alexander 400 years before he was born as the destroyer of Tyre, then you might have something you could claim as prophecy, but for some reason the name Alexander escaped the prophet of the all knowing creator of the Universe.

If this was a real prophecy resulting from foresight, you wouldn't be hanging your argument on weasel words, but the plain meaning of the works on the paper.

And if Alexander had been mentioned you would take that as proof for a later dating of the book.

You know you would.

Science has introduced safety switches ,that don't require any self-destruction or ascending up to fuse heaven
or waiting for it to come back and save your life. It just keeps right on working for you after a simple reset.
nor does it conspire with the fuse god to judge you or condemn you to the lake of fire.

I haven't read all of this thread. In fact, very little of it. And, I should know better to get into a debate with those who are smarter than me. But if I did, I would never get to argue! But, AS, I tried to find the definition of a prophecy that you cited and couldn't find it. As far as the prophecy being clear, clear to whom? The Bible tells us that the Word of God is spiritually discerned by those who know the Lord. For example, I had a conversation with a Muslim one time who was being taught that Jesus could not be the Messiah because He told His disciples that His "time had not yet come". To a believer, we know that He was simply telling them that He could not go to Jerusalem as they wanted Him to for His time to die had not yet come.

And none of the definitions I looked at said that a prophecy had to be fulfillable at a single occurrence. Couldn't find that. Not saying that it isn't out there somewhere, just that the first several online definitions I googled didn't say that so I didn't see the use in going on. For many OT prophecies, there was an imminent application and an eschatological application. For instance, in the book of Zephaniah, God lets Judah know that He is going to bring judgment upon them through the new rising power in that day, the Babylonians, because of Judah's idolatry. That was imminent and it happened fairly quickly. Obviously, that happened when they took Judah into captivity.

However, the book's prophecies also point to the end of the age, The Day of the Lord. I realize that there are many different interpretations of the Book of Revelation, but it is my understanding that the 7 years of tribulation is for the nation of Israel to be saved. Not that all will be saved, but many will. So...I don't see where your definition holds up, at least to the definitions I saw (and these were secular dictionaries and not Bible ones).

well reading what Neb did at Gods will, it sounds very much like Neb levelled the city, so much so, that it will be like the 'top of a rock'.(via Nebs actions)
EZEKIEL 26: (AKJV)

7" For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots,
and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.
10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots,
when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.
11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise:and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses:
and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.
13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.
14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.




christians contradict scripture much more often than they will admit, or even aware of.

When TF49 stated that his faith in Jesus is motivated and based on Jesus being a means of escaping Gods judgement,
It left me really wondering of his understanding of Christianity, since scripture clearly indicates Jesus himself will be
judging each and every man.

TF49 it would appear , was fundamentally wrong when he indicated God will judge the world with Jesus as the path of escape from Judgement.



JOHN 5:22 AKJV

" For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son":

JOHN 5:27 AKJV

" and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."

JOHN 9:39 AKJV

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind."

ROMANS 2:16 AKJV

" in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

2 Corinthians 5:10 AKJV

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body,
according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

MATTHEW 25: AKJV

"31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Starman,

You posted this:

"When TF49 stated that his faith in Jesus is motivated and based on Jesus being a means of escaping Gods judgement...."

So, tell me how you came to believe that my faith in Jesus is motivated as a means of escaping judgment.

TF

AS,

The last time I discussed Bible prophecy with you concerned the prophecy against Tyre. You claimed it was not fulfilled. When I showed how it was indeed fulfilled you failed to admit that and then you came up with your own contorted view of what the scriptures said.

You simply would not admit you were wrong and then compounded your error with a clearly silly interpretation of the verses. Your pride will not allow you to see the truth.

If you get cornered, you will do the same thing. You will present YOUR OWN view of what the scriptures say and then judge all arguments to the contrary to be false. A recent clear example of this is when you declared Daniel to be written, let's see 160 to 200 or something AD. If you resort to weak arguments like this, you will never see any truth as your bias has blinded you. With a simple sweep of the hand, you declare all the prophecy in Daniel to be false. Kinda like debating a recalcitrant four year old who has no command of the subject being discussed.

Further, you seem to have no knowledge of your own and resort to a quick internet search of atheistic sites. I doubt you have any scholarly base of your own.

However, let's play.
[/quote]
In the prophecy you reference, explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre and that Tyre's land would never be built upon again. However, this never occurred. After a 13-year siege, Tyre compromised with Nebuchadnezzar and accepted his authority without being destroyed. Despite being conquered and razed by Alexander the Great 240 years later, Tyre still exists.

This alleged prophecy is just factually wrong. [/quote]


AS,

You are totally incorrect and false in your statement.

This is what you say: "....explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre ...."

You have either never read Ezekiel 26 or you have a serious reading comprehension problem. Perhaps both.

Note that the verses are very clear about what NEB would do and what God or "I" will do. AS has either never read the verse or is just simply parroting something from some website of dubious standing.

You are misinterpreting the text. There are TWO actors moving against Tyre. One is Nebuchadnezzar. The other is God. Neb took his action and then God took his. You are incorrect when you say that Neb was to be the actor to completely destroy Tyre. The verses do not say that. But you take it the way you want and erect a false straw man to knock down.

Tyre was destroyed and you will not admit it.


I will help you out here. Note that the text says God will bring "many nations" against Tyre. Neb was brought against the city and then later "I" brought Alexander to complete the destruction of Tyre.

The prophecy stands. AS fails.[/quote]

TF, that's pretty weak. You would thing the all knowing creator of the Universe could at least give a clear prophecy. In order to be a true prophecy it must be clear, unambiguous, and only fulfillable at a single occurrence.

If I was to predict the U.S would fall, sometime in the future, and at the hand of some other nation, and a thousand years from now the U.S fell to a foreign power, is that really a prophecy? Of course not.

The only attacker Ezekial mentions by name is Nebuchadnezzar. No where in the prophecy does it mention Alexander. Now if it did mention a Macedonia named Alexander 400 years before he was born as the destroyer of Tyre, then you might have something you could claim as prophecy, but for some reason the name Alexander escaped the prophet of the all knowing creator of the Universe.

If this was a real prophecy resulting from foresight, you wouldn't be hanging your argument on weasel words, but the plain meaning of the works on the paper.



[/quote]


Wow, "weasel words" abound in your response. You judge the prophecy to be false because it is not written clear enough for YOU to understand it.

You place your own conditions on the prophecy. Since the verses do not meet YOUR view of what a prophecy should be, you deny it.

The facts remain. Ezekiel made a prophecy regarding the destruction of Tyre. It was destroyed. You do not find it within yourself to accept that so out comes the weasel words and the waffling.