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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 199
Campfire Member
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OP
Campfire Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 199 |
I have an older Winchester model 70 in .243 that would like to shoot a lot, but I don't want to ruin the bore by shooting full house loads in it. Say the 3,000 to 3,100 f.p.s. stuff. So I've come up with an idea that may save on the bore erosion. Here it is and does it sound feasible? If you look into Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook you will see as an example: 21.5 / 5744 with the 85 gr. cast bullet for a velocity of 2324 f.p.s. and a pressure of 25,300 p.s.i. Am I thinking correct when I say why don't I load this same load only use the 85 gr. jacketed bullets that I want to use. If you look at the Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition the lowest starting load is 34 / 4064 with the 85 gr. jacketed bullet at 33,500 cup and a velocity of 2824 f.p.s. Would 21.5 / 5744 or any of the maximum cast loads be ok to use with the same weight jacketed bullets with the hope of creating less bore erosion. The drop in velocity doesn't bother me, I'm just punching paper and metal targets. Thanks for your opinions. RRM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,191 Likes: 22
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,191 Likes: 22 |
Generally, jacketed bullets result in a little less pressure than cast bullets of the same weight, because they don't seal the bore as completely.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,005 Likes: 10
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26,005 Likes: 10 |
Lots of possibilities for reduced loads to save your barrel. I have loaded many reduced loads for my kids or grand kids over the years, or for using big game rifles for varminting and plinking.
Speer #10 suggests a 90 gr bullet over 17 gr of IMR 4198 for 1766 fps or 19 gr IMR 4198 for 1990 fps.
Or with your chosen 85 gr bullet, Hodgdon suggests that you can load H4895 down to 60% of maximum
Hodgdon #6 shows a maximum load of 37 gr H4895 with an 85 gr bullet. The 60% reduction rule would allow you to load down to 22.2 gr of H4895 with an 85 gr bullet which would yield in the neighborhood of 2000 fps.
Or you might choose a less reduced charge of H4895. For example 30 gr H4895 would produce about 2620 fps with the same 85 gr bullet.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,258 |
These loads for 243 are from a previous post by Seafire usual disclaimers proclaimed. Blue Dot Range Report; 243 Winchester
Rifle Used: Winchester Varmint
Barrel Length: 26 inches
Case Used: Remington New
Primer: Fed 210
Max: Capacity: 41.0 grains
Capacity Tested: 8 ( 20%) to 24 grains ( 60%)
1. Bullet : 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip OAL: 67.50 mm
8 grs: 1785 fps 13 grs: 2381 fps 18 grs: 2979 fps
9 grs: 1927 fps 14 grs: 2525 fps 19 grs: 3078 fps
10 grs: 2096 fps 15 grs: 2633 fps 20 grs: 3182 fps
11 grs: 2128 fps 16 grs: 2750 fps 21 grs: 3285 fps
12 grs: 2241 fps 17 grs: 2898 fps 22 grs: 3342 fps
23 grs: 3471 fps 24 grs: 3555 fps
Max Is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.
2. Bullet: 60 grain Sierra Hollow Point OAL; 67.50 mm
8grs: 1675 fps 14grs: 2404 fps 20grs: 3047 fps
9grs: 1779 fps 15grs: 2526 fps 21grs: 3159 fps
10grs: 1869 fps 16grs: 2591 fps 22grs: 3227 fps
11 grs: 2018 fps 17grs: 2718 fps
12grs: 2167 fps 18grs: 2809 fps 23grs: 3286 fps
13 grs: 2305 fps 19grs: 2961 fps
Max is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.
3. Bullet: 75 grain Hornady Hollow Point; OAL: 69.50 mm
8 grs: 1279 fps 13 grs: 2082 fps 18grs: 2604 fps
9grs: 1639 fps 14 grs: 2211 fps 19grs: 2704 fps
10grs: 1755 fps 15grs: 2280 fps 20grs: 2761 fps
11grs: 1882 fps 16grs: 2424 fps 21grs: 2798 fps
12grs: 1989 fps 17grs: 2499 fps 22grs: 2958 fps
75 grain Hornady Continued
23 grs: 3016 fps
Max is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.
3. Bullet: 80 grain Winchester SP: OAL: 69.50 mm
8grs: 1340 fps 14grs: 2159 fps 20grs: 2725 fps
9grs: 1578 fps 15grs: 2265 fps 21grs: 2811 fps
10grs: 1696 fps 16grs: 2298 fps 22grs: 2826 fps
11grs: 1894 fps 17grs: 2462 fps 23grs: 2928 fps
12grs: 1928 fps 18grs: 2552 fps
13grs: 2069 fps 19grs: 2665 fps
Max is recommended at 21 grains for reliable brass life
4. Bullet: 87 grain Hornady SP: OAL: 69.60 mm
8grs: 1057 fps 14grs: 2026 fps 20grs: 2580 fps
9grs: 1434 fps 15grs: 2108 fps 21grs: 2652 fps
10grs: 1558 fps 16grs: 2226 fps 22grs: 2741 fps
11grs: 1683 fps 17grs: 2323 fps 23grs: 2782 fps
12grs: 1806 fps 18grs: 2415 fps
13grs: 1898 fps 19grs: 2487 fps
Max is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.
5. Bullet: 95 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip: OAL: 70.50mm
10grs: 1520 fps 15grs: 2080 fps 20grs: 2514 fps
11grs: 1648 fps 16grs: 2159 fps 21grs: 2601 fps
12grs: 1757 fps 17grs: 2250 fps 22grs: 2693 fps
13grs: 1868 fps 18grs: 2295 fps 23grs: 2740 fps
14grs: 1974 fps 19grs: 2420 fps
Max is recommend at 22 grains for reliable brass life.
6. Bullet: 100 grain Hornady SP; OAL: 69.25 mm
11grs: 1575 fps 16grs: 2113 fps 21grs: 2512 fps
12grs: 1724 fps 17grs: 2207 fps 22grs: 2581 fps
13grs: 1828 fps 18grs: 2299 fps
14grs: 1927 fps 19grs: 2365 fps
15grs: 2019 fps 20grs: 2438 fps
Max is recommended at 21 grains for reliable brass life.
7. Bullet: 105 grain Speer SP; OAL: 70.50 mm
10grs: 1270 fps 16grs: 2050 fps 22grs: 2561 fps
11grs: 1521 fps 17grs: 2142 fps
12grs: 1668 fps 18grs: 2239 fps
13grs: 1757 fps 19grs; 2311 fps
14grs: 1837 fps 20grs: 2412 fps
15grs: 1928 fps 21grs: 2483 fps
Max is recommended at 22 grains for reliable brass life.
Conclusions:
1. I consider the 243 much more versatile for a first rifle using these loads than starting a younger shooter out on a 223 or 22/250. It will duplicate the other two rounds, plus has the ability to handle a heavier bullet while still giving mild recoil characteristics.
2. The 243 offers a wide variety of bullets from 55 grain to 105 grain for hunting, and even 107 and 115 grain bullets for long range target shooting and competition.
3. Some bullets that are lighter than other bullets reach max pressure signs at lower powder charges, than a few heavier bullets. This is caused by the load bearing surface of the bullet.
Observations:
1. Contrary to what is usually seen, or expected: In using trees about 8 inches in diameter as backstops, I noticed that in the 2200 to 2800 fps range, most of the varmint bullets were actually penetrating thru the trees completely. Since they are suppose to be fragile for varmint applications, I did not expect to see this. However It was observed in the 55 grain Ballistic Tip, the 60 grain Sierra Hollow Point and the 75 grain Hornady Hollow Point.
2. Therefore it is my PERSONAL conclusion that these bullets might be considered as potential bullets on deer sized game in parts of the country where deer only get to be Antelope sized animals.
3. If this is done, the results are strictly the responsibility of the handloader and shooter. IN the 2200 to 2800 fps range, the rear core is staying intact and not exploding like is advertised a varmint bullet should do. Over this speed the bullet is performing in the explosive manner as designed.
4. I got input from other shooters on an internet forum asking about their experience with this bullet, there were some successes, some failures, and many recommendations for a larger bullet. However, if someone desires to use these varmint style bullets, I advise testing them yourself and analyse your results before deciding to use them.
As always, work your loads up from a point long before listed maximum.
I hope that this information is useful in teaching new and young shooters how to shoot properly and safely. Recoil will be substantially less than typical factory loads. This should assist in accurate shot placement by the shooter.
Cheers and Good shooting
Seafire, May 2004
Ed
A person who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes the person who never asks is a fool forever.
The worst slaves are those that put the chains on themselves.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 199
Campfire Member
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OP
Campfire Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 199 |
I want to thank you guys for your responses. Plenty of food for thought. I was just running the idea through my head thinking that maybe the maximum cast charges would have plenty of pressure to shoot the jacketed bullets adequately and still be easy on the bore. Maybe the way to go is the reduced H-4895 route. Prwlr, thank you for the Seafire information. Very interesting. Looks like this Seafire guy has spent some serious time playing at the bench. Has he mentioned anything about tilting the rifle back to seat the powder next to the primer before firing the gun? Or does he use a filler of some sort. Does he have any Blue Dot loads for the .257 Roberts? Does he have a web page where a guy can look up different calibers he has experimented with? So with all this being said, thank you. RRM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,896 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,896 Likes: 9 |
RR Mac....
you know you can just PM me here on the campfire....
yeah, I have spent some serious load time "playing at the bench"... as I do a lot of work with youths via Boy Scouts developing loads for them to shoot...but also like you, I don't think I need a 500 yd load that will drop an elephant, to take down a blacktail deer at 250 yds or less... and more like a 100 yds or less...
I am not a big fan of the H4895 reduced loads, and they are many better powders to accomplish the same thing.. giving better accuracy, less retort when you pull the trigger, and more consistent across a wide range of cartridges and charge weights... 4198 as a starter....I have found Reduced H 4895 loads, having a loud retort even when reduced, seems to intimidate a large number of women and younger shooters.. 4198 does not.... and yeah I hunt with these loads each season...
feel free to PM me and we can set ya up with direction on about any of the zillion standard calibers out there.
cheers and best regards
seafire
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,191 Likes: 22
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,191 Likes: 22 |
Seafire,
I realize you've experimented a lot with reduced loads, so far with no major accidents, but just saying 4198 isn't very specific, since there are two kinds IMR and H. And Hodgdon's present data doesn't provide ANY data for either in the .243.
In the past few years Hodgdon's own testing indicated IMR4895 didn't result in nearly as consistent pressures when loads were reduced as many handloaders believe--which is why they don't recommend it anymore for loads below their listed starting minimums. They didn't find any such anomalies, however, with H4895, which is why they now recommend H4895 for reduced loads.
Generally when they don't list a certain powder for a certain cartridge, especially lighter loads, it's because they've found similar problems. That may not be the case, but contacting them would certainly be in order.
Part of the reason for all this, of course, is much more sensitive electronic pressure equipment than the now mostly abandoned copper-frusher method. The Lyman data for 5744 mentioned by Rat Rod Mac has been electronically tested, as has a bunch of other 5744 data, and the powder has been proven to provide consistent results in reduced loads--which is why I use a lot of it for my own reduced loads. And by "proven" I don't mean some handloader has been using it for a while without any anomalies.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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