Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns You only need a 1911A1 .45. Throw the rest away

T Lee,

This data is a few years old but should still serve its purpose as hardball has been around for quite awhile:

9mm ball vs .45acp ball ammo

Manu. Type Grains fps fpe Shoot. Success

Win FMJ 115 1153 341 256 63%

Win FMJ 230 835 356 179 63%

Taken from Towert's page at:

http://www.powernet.net/~eich1/sp.html

My only comment is that there are plenty of shootings for both.

EC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Data is data, real effect is another ball of wax. The big fat slugs just put an antoganist down faster in the real world. If ballistic experiments were true, in real world scenario's we would all be carring guns that fired 25 gn bullets at 3500 FPS, trouble is they don't work out that way against adreniline pumped living targets as they do against ballistic geletin or wet newspaper.

Thats why dangerous big game is still taken with big bullets, not the "mini-mags". Lethal and quick stopping are not the same. Both are desirable against a determined antoganist, quick stop the first priority.

Ain't gonna get into which is better, 9MM or .45. I will just stick with big, heavy and thump-em.

When I referred to the Moros as Indians, I was just following T Lee's example. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hawk, never follow the lost, or you too will be lost! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
'Sides, thats why Boggy is a Ranger, he knows the way.

T LEE,

The .38's that the gvt was issuing during the Spanish American War were so ineffective agains the drugged Philipine natives that soldiers were issued Starr Double Action precussion revolvers in .44 caliber. They also re-issued .45 Single Action Army's as well.

T Lee,

I thought that's what this thread was about? The .45acp against all the rest? I was havin' fun! Those numbers were taken from real world shootings, not ballistic gelatin or any other estimation medium. Oh well, best not to argue with friends!

Hawkeye,

I await your rebuttal with much fervor and impatience!

EC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

EC, For your consideration, two real scenario's and there outcome.

First one:
A two man radio patrol unit pulls up in front of a business at closing time, the driver gets
out to check on the clerk but is suprised by a BG coming out the door gun in hand. The
Officer draws and fires two RNL 158 gn .38 Spls right through the BG's sternum and
heart. The BG leans against the door frame and raises his gun towards the now retreating
to cover Officer and fires once, the Officer is knocked down by a bullet strike on his
lower leg and rendered unconcious by the impact of his head on the curb. The BG is
using an antique Colt "Thunderer" in .41 LC that fires a 200 gn RNFP bullet @ 760 FPS
or so, the .38 is traveling at about 850 FPS. The Officers partner gets a CNS hit and puts
the BG down as he is readying to shoot Officer 1 again.

Even though the Officer "killed" the BG according to the autopsy report the BG was still
able to continue fighting long enough to have killed the Officer if the Officer had not had
a partner to help him.

Second one:
A one man unit arrives at a burgerly call and is immediatly confronted by an armed BG
who shoots the Officer with a .380 ACP twice in the chest. The Officer is wearing a
winter uniform and heavy jacket and the rounds just penetrate the skin and skip off on the
ribs underneath. The Officer fires one .45 ACP 230 gn FMJ and hits the BG in the hip,
through a Navy P coat and jeans shattering it. The BG go's down for the count but
survives the shooting to stand trial on one leg.

Which is better, knock down or lethality?

T and Hawk, reference the Moro. Wasn't trying to be a smart azz. Deal is when you put something that is wrong in a post then no matter how accruate you are in the rest a reader will suspect it because he knows something you said was wrong. Applies even if the wrong info doesn't have much bearing on the point of the post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just ask me, I am a freaking expert on being wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BCR

Not a problem Boggy, I appreciate the info. I was working from foggy memory and we all know what happens when you do THAT. Been a long time since school and the cobwebs are getting thick.

I think in my case Kahuna means dumb azz!

EC, you do huh?


Well, here it is. The methodology of that study is flawed. Everybody knows the .45 is the king of the world. No study necessary. I reject your figures out of hand. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Hawkeye Pearce,

Be careful of blanket statements like that... not everybody thinks the .45acp is the king of the world, me included.

One question: If a cut down .50AE were introduced in say, a SIG, and that sucker scooted along at right around 900fps but was controllable, would you immediately drop your puny .45acp chambered 1911 and rund out and buy one? Inquiring minds want to know. Ammo would be plentiful in practice rounds, Gold Dots, Hydra-Shok, etc.

T Lee,

I have a feeling that those stories are something you really didn't want to bring up. If that really is the case then I won't argue with them. That goes double since that one experience that I had not so long ago. People second-guessing my every move even though they weren't there.

EC

EC, nope. The gun you describe is a double action. The gun you describe would have a lot of blast, flash and recoil, compared to the mild mannered .45 ACP. The gun you describe is fat and blocky, while the 1911 is slim and rounded. The gun you describe just doesn't have the class and history of the Government Model .45. You just can't beat a 1911, in my book. It's got it all.

Just my way of pointing out there are "real world stats" and "real world experience", I'll be forced to go with the "real world experiance". Seen the difference betweem small and big, gotta go with big as most hits aren't always optimal as you are aware.

Yes I was "Oficer 1" in the first story, over 35 years ago. A fellow officer was the second one a few months later, and I arrived seconds after the the fight ended in time to call the ambulance for him and the BG. They no longer bother me, in fact the only thing that bothered me was I didn't have enough gun!

As you should note, it was awhile ago, no body armor!

T Lee, I, for one, am glad that I can learn from YOUR experience, rather than from a similar first-hand experience, in this case. Very good point. Hope the leg is better now.

Thanks TRH, the leg healed and worked quite nicely afterwards, minus the lower half of the Fibula. My head or more to the point, the contents therein, have been questioned many times since however! LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

T Lee, glad to hear it. As for your gray matter, I think you are well on your way to full recovery. Your old I.Q. was 158, wasn't it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There's three number IQ's? Didn't know they went that high! LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The original .357 load did develop 1500 fps. with a 158 gr. bullet. It will shoot through glass and doors. The trouble is it was loaded to 40,000 psi. Nothing like it is loaded today. All .357 mag ammo is standardized at 30,000 psi.
Even if it were, it has very little left. See the FBI tests when they looked for a better round. That's why they went to to .40 S&W. Enough energy to do some good after shooting through a car door or auto glass. So does the .45 ACP.
I do recommend the 9mm, or the .357, over the .45/.40 family if the shooter can shoot one significantly better. Remember, Bad Guys are often on something, and can be a nightmare to stop.
I've owned 3 9's, one .357, a couple of .38's, 4 1911 .45's, a .41 and a couple of .44 Mags. I've seen them all used in the field, often by me, and the street. I've used both the .44 Mag., and the .45 ACP in the street. I didn't get to pick my fights. I didn't get to pick what, and whom, I was up against. I "came to believe" that bigger is better. Especially when I've got more than one to deal with, or something to shoot through. E

Hawkeye,

Let's just suppose I'm not recoil sensitive. Let's further suppose that I have big hands. Hands that don't always let me get a positive disengagement on any grip safety.

The problem with the grip safety is why I never went with the 1911. I don't care what style beavertail you put on one, I just can't get positive disengagement. I won't pin the safety on one because of potential court problems.

Now, if I decide to put my faith in a larger round than the 9mm, why not go whole hog? I don't see a problem with a .50AE Short. Use suppressed powder if you don't want flash, and a barrel that's about 5" long suits me just fine.

Now, the reason I didn't go with the .45acp cartridge to begin with is because after studying numerous exchanges of lead I came to believe you need to shoot as fast as possible while maintaining accuracy. The .45acp doesn't let me do that as quickly as with a 9mm, especially in a full-sized PT92 package. Further, if I am facing multiple assailants, I want more than 8 shots. If there are four people that leaves me with 2 shots apiece.

Now if I'm going to go subsonic then yes, I will go with a big, heavy bullet. I've been considering a 2" snubbie revolver as a backup chambered in .45Colt if I can find one, and if not, .44spl.

I'm not thinking too well right now and I'm sure you'll shoot this argument full of holes. Go for it and I'll respond when I'm a bit more clear-headed.

EC

It's not about recoil sensativaty. It's about quick follow up shots in combat. Why would I want that piece of junk you describe when I can have a 1911A1 in .45 ACP? If I want to hunt elk with a handgun, I'll get one in .50 AE.

I have never had a problem with the grip safety. If you have a problem, there are designs that will fix it, or you can pin it down. The only way that might get you in trouble is in the case where you claim you had an accidental discharge, and hurt someone or something. Solution; don't have an accidental discharge. Learn safe gun handling till you are accident proof.