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I agree with a lot of the things you post, but violently disagree with this one. Yankee propaganda you've swallowed in public schools Steve. Quantrill was and still remains a hero to many up here on the Kansas and Missouri border. His troops were among the finest Cavalry the Confederates had to offer. They faced not only militia and Jayhawker scum but many regular troops during their time in Missouri and Kansas.

Quantrill was commissioned a Captain of Partisan Rangers under that Act probably in 1862. He was commissioned as a regular officer by none other than President Davis himself during his trip to the capitol in the winter of 1862/1863. As such, he was not present with his men during their service in the Battle of Prairie Grove, Arkansas where they rescued General Jo Shelby from capture by the Federals and received high praise from him.

The Devil Knows How to Ride is the definitive biography on William Clark Quantrill, showing him as neither a superhero nor a monster, but a man in difficult times who showed both heroic and subpar tendencies at times. Gray Ghosts of the Confederacy is a primer on Quantrill and THE work on Confederate guerrillas in general. Certainly the good Colonel is mentioned in the same breath as Mosby and the others. The war was different in the west and some would say Quantrill topped the list of those you mentioned.

OK, I just got done reading the link, and re-reading your post. Once again, thanks for the link and additional info.

My thoughts on this are as follows. There are several conflicting stories regarding this. It was a massacre or battle, depending on who's side you're reading. I'm inclined to believe massacre, being as German survivors seem to be pretty scarce. Of course the "stay at home rangers" are gonna call it a battle. After all, they don't get to brag about the honor of murder.

I'd put this Nueces episode into the same category of Lawrence, Kansas, Pottawatomie, and many others. That is that political leanings had some bearing on it, but most of it was just plain meanness.

Davis and Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus, locking people up without charge or trial, and closing printing presses are political crimes. Murder is, in my mind, altogether different.

Unfortunately, murderers often use some "political" excuse to justify their deeds. Especially state sponsored murderers. Hitler's boys using ethnic cleansing springs to mind.

Granted, without the pro-union leanings of the Germans, this wouldn't have happened. But thugs always find an excuse to push people around. After all, that's what thugs do. If not pro-unionism or refusing to serve, or opposition to slavery, it'd be something else. "He looked at me funny".

Unfortunately, the human beast is often disposed to murder his fellow human beast. Some of us see folks needing a hand, and want to help. Others see a chance to take advantage of someone helpless. Some of us admire folks who have worked hard and own nice things, others are motivated by jealousy to vandalize and rob, even murder.

I don't know what to do about it. It's impossible to tell the goats from the sheep until it's too late. But I am convinced that (my Wifey hates it when I say this) there are many people without whom the world would be a lot better place. History proves over and over, that this always has been true, and until God decides different, always will be true.
7mm

I'm well aware what a militia is. The differentiation you're making is between missions rather than types of fighters. The irregulars you speak of mainly took on other troops as opposed to guarding the rear and policing rear areas.

I'm not an expert on Mosby and the others, but probably am close to one on Quantrill and the Border Wars. I would say that most of the men in his command were devoted to the Confederate cause. What you say may have been more true at the earliest parts of the war and the latest.

I lived in Kansas for 5 years. He was despised. You must be working one of those "revisioning history" projects.

If you read someone like Cook - a buffalo hunter who was there at the time - you will see Quantrel was nothing but pure hate to those people and still is today. Minus a few "New Age Historians" perhaps.

Brent

plus one

Quite true. The very things we go to war for these days, are black marks on our own history. We prosecuted that Serbian president for ethnic cleansing, and we decorated the likes of Sheridan for carrying out the same policy. Makes you think when we get oddballs wanting to throw away the last 142 years of social evolution so they can have their cake and eat it too. The difference with the US and Russia, that happend 20 years ago for them, and 142 for us. I guess that makes us better off.

Yeah, I think so. Hard to imagine a profiteering, pillaging, murdering arsonist who claimed victims with no union ties at all as a "good-guy"

7mm...

Near as I can tell that Nueces incident might best be termed the "Nueces Ambush" or "Surprise Attack" and the Confederates could build a strong case on that one, ninety or so men in pursuit of sixty or so armed Union sympathisers, at least some of whom would have joined the Union Army,

Far more galling is this...


More than 50 in the county around Fredericksburg, at least several in neighboring counties, and uncounted anonymous murders, these acts of the most despicable sort, perpetrated against the helpless.

Up north the "Great Gainesville Hanging" of at least 40 men alluded to earlier proved a severe embarassment to Jeff Davis himself, who had been seeking to highlight wrongdoings by Union forces.

Birdwatcher

Sounds like Duff was exactly the type of critter I was describing.

War and unrest seem to breed this type, or it allows them to come to the surface under the guise of "law enforcement". I compare them to bottom feeding fish. When the water is stirred up, they come up to feed.

War takes the good men to the front, allowing cowards like this to rule unopposed. It's happened in every war, and civil wars are the worst.

There was a pretty good example of this in Tennessee following WW2, but I can't remember the locality. (Someone help me out) When the vets got home and saw what was going on, they surrounded the sheriff and deputies in the county jail, forcing them to surrender.

As I said, good men go to the front and those left behind, who are ruled by greed and thirst for power, take advantage of it.
7mm

"I lived in Kansas for 5 years. He was despised."

Son, you can't even spell the man's name right. Plus, you're a Yankee who admits that he lived here for all of five years. Probably in Scott City. lol

Please stay in Iowa.

When did you last read anything on Col. Quantrill or the war in the west? Again, the way you jump to conclusions and make rash assumptions makes it difficult to believe you are really an attorney.

That's too bad. Certainly we whose families comprised the Confederacy must admit that it wasn't perfect.

================================================================

Quite frankly Ethan, I couldn't give a rat's ass about what you believe.Qauntrill was a murderous killer of innocents and who only enjoys some romanticism of his history through folks like you still trying to live in the old, old west.


You're quite amazing questioning people's manners when you yourself come back with these sophomoric rants when someone basically lays out their own personal contrary beliefs to questions you ask. Pitifully laughable.

If you don't like the heat that some of your questions generate, then stick to your "world's best burger or best tasting root-beer" threads.

Ethan, much as it pains me to disagreee with a man named after my favorite movie character, I can assure you I didn't get my view of Quantrill from no stinkin' Yankee historians. The CSA records do not disclose that he ever got a Colonel's (or any other ) commission under either the Partisan Rangers' Act or in the regular army. After a hundred and forty plus years, I guess we have to draw our own conclusions about his actions, but that fact seems to be pretty clear. Nobody has ever produced any evidence that he was a Confederate officer, other than his own claim, and the fact that he signed correspondence as such. I have Grey Ghost, BTW, good book.

How long does it take to know the obvious?

As for staying in Iowa, I have bad news. The Smokey Hill River and Flint Hills country are right on top of my list of places to retire.

Given your hatred of "yankees," maybe you should move to Missouri.

Brent

I completely agree, Boggy. All three men were charismatic leaders who inspired deep loyalty from their men.

True, and the same could be said of Hitler, bin Laden, and any number of other not so well thought of folks.

Brent

And the same could also be said of Jesus, Buddha and Ghandi. What's your point? I was answering a specific
question from Boggy, not commenting on the relative morality of the gentlemen named.

It's just what I said, charism can be had by anyone and used for anything.

The followers of Quantrill are not better men for it, nor the cause more just for it.

Brent

Where is your evidence that he was such a killer of innocents "counselor"? I have read a ton of books on the war in the west and while not all of Quantrill's actions were gentlemanly, they were at least understandable given the circumstances. The Yankees threw the gauntlet down as far as taking no prisoners. Up until that general order was issued and the Yankees began to kill them, Quantrill and his men took and pardoned prisoners in accordance with the generally accepted rules of warfare of the times and of that war. Most of the people killed in the Lawrence Battle were irregular Yankee guerrillas who had raped and killed in Missouri and were no better than outlaws themselves. The first man killed was a Chaplain who had stocked his Church with articles stolen from Missouri churches. The raid on Lawrence was a buildup of reactions to crimes committed in Missouri by Kansas troops. Two of the standout incidents were the razing of Osceola, Missouri-a town I have been to many times which lays a scant fifty or sixty miles to my east-during which at least ten citizens were summarily executed by troops under Jim Lane. Lane escaped Quantrill by fleeing from his house in his nightclothes and squatting in a cornfield during the raid. The other incident was the collapse of the old jail in Kansas City. The Bushwhacker's female relatives had been incarcerated in the jail and the Confederates believed the Yankees undermined the structure and caused the collapse. Several women were killed in the collapse, including the sister of Bloody Bill Anderson, a Captain under Quantrill.
You are a lawyer. Where is your research? Where is your evidence? All you have are insults.