|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 747
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 747 |
LEO never saw the shooter; we all know that's bullshit. However work this situation: You have 2 dead students shot to death; murdered. You don't have the shooter in custody. Do you presume the shooter left town? Do you presume the shooter is on a bus to Atlanta? Do you presume the shooter is heading North?
Morons think that way. The police are as culpable as anyone due to chronic incompetence. They failed to perform their duty of actually being awake. Let alone protecting the public.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 747
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 747 |
This was an absolute failure of the police to do their job and protect the citizens. Believe it, it goes no farther than that.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,681
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,681 |
Police aren't legally obligated to protect citizens - see Castle Rock v. Gonzales, Bowers v. DeVito and South v. Maryland. They certainly had a moral obligation IMO.
Sad but true.
Better be prepared to protect yourself. Nobody else will.
Be the person your dog thinks you are.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 747
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 747 |
I'm GTG but I'm confused regarding you legal case studies.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 747
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 747 |
How can the cops be legally not be obligated to protect the civilians?
Isnt that the entire intent of the god damn fuzz?
Last edited by 300wby; 04/16/07.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,760
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,760 |
340,
Calling BS on this. What did they have to go on at the first scene that told them the shooter would go to a classroom building, chain it up and start offing people at random? You did hear this is the largest mass killing in american school history? Read that to say "Never has happened before!" They had one "normal murder scene" at the first scene with a suspect on the loose, then 2 hours later the other started.
Last edited by .280Rem; 04/17/07.
War Damn Eagle!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 263
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 263 |
I rank these idiotic posts right up there with "...Why didn't the police charge into the building and kill the shooter?"
That tactic may work in the military. The only way to make it out of an ambush is to rush the ambush while returning fire.
You're talking about a university police force who may have to confront a drunk co-ed. At "real mean night" may mean fighting with several drunk football players.
When and if the facts come out, I'll look forward to apologies(to the flatfoots) from arm chair police chiefs.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,737
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,737 |
I rank these idiotic posts right up there with "...Why didn't the police charge into the building and kill the shooter?"
That tactic may work in the military. The only way to make it out of an ambush is to rush the ambush while returning fire.
You're talking about a university police force who may have to confront a drunk co-ed. At "real mean night" may mean fighting with several drunk football players.
When and if the facts come out, I'll look forward to apologies(to the flatfoots) from arm chair police chiefs. If you get to Richmond let me buy you a beer or a cup of coffee. Jim
"Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas Jefferson
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 20,494
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 20,494 |
+1 and then raise that to the nth power. Too easy to blame the police for the action of a crazed killer. It's way easier to hide in a crowd than in a vacant parking lot. Universities got crowds.
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23) Brother Keith
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,672
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,672 |
I don't know why they didn't just barge in and start shooting. Sooner or later the law of averages will catch up. Cops........if they shoot too soon they are to blame. If they don't shoot at all they are to blame. All of this on pay that wouldn't feed a family of 4 and less respect than George Bush. I don't think we get our money's worth. Jim
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 20,494
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 20,494 |
Right on, Jim. Spent 30 years and 3 months always doing the wrong thing in someone's mind.
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23) Brother Keith
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,286
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,286 |
Ah yes, let the blame-game begin.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,911 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 37,911 Likes: 2 |
The way I understand it, this campus is about as big as an entire city. One might as well suggest why didn't they put the whole town on lockdown?
Nothing in the nature of the first killings (demonstrably a domestic-type situation) would suggest the quite different premeditated massacre that subsequently occurred across campus.
For that matter that guy could have equally likely struck at ANY crowded venue, anywhere.
Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
That campus can be locked down completely. It has been before. It should have been again. It wasn't.
Not locking it down, was a HUGE mistake. But no one there could have expected what was coming.
That said, there will be plenty of blame to go around later... now, is not the time, and folks who know nothing about the area, the school, or the situation other than what they hear 15th hand aren't the ones to do it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 17,278
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 17,278 |
340,
Calling BS on this. What did they have to go on at the first scene that told them the shooter would go to a classroom building, chain it up and start offing people at random? You did hear this is the largest mass killing in american school history? Read that to say "Never has happened before!" They had one "normal murder scene" at the first scene with a suspect on the loose, then 2 hours later the other started. I tend to agree with .280Rem, but regardless of where the blame belongs, somebody on the national scene needs to be asking the question: "This is the degree to which security professionals can" (or "will," if you're in the mood to bash cops--doesn't matter) "protect you. Are you happy with it, or would you perhaps like a bit of amateur protection (read: CCW) as well?)"
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain--that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." --Lysander Spooner, 1867
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,760
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,760 |
That campus can be locked down completely. It has been before. It should have been again. It wasn't.
Not locking it down, was a HUGE mistake. But no one there could have expected what was coming.
That said, there will be plenty of blame to go around later... now, is not the time, and folks who know nothing about the area, the school, or the situation other than what they hear 15th hand aren't the ones to do it. Sean, The first murder scene appeared to be a "run of the mill" murder. On that alone you'd lock down an entire college campus the size of Va Tech? I guess I can see an argument for that, and it MIGHT have prevented what happened, but it would be overreaction under normal circumstances IMO, but I guess when you figure in it would have only cost one day, or maybe a half day of classes...[b]in hindsight]/b] the risks of not doing so are far higher than the loss of doing so needlessly.
War Damn Eagle!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,760
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,760 |
"This is the degree to which security professionals can" (or "will," if you're in the mood to bash cops--doesn't matter) "protect you. Are you happy with it, or would you perhaps like a bit of amateur protection (read: CCW) as well?)" Barak, I suspect that the majority whether they are non-anti or anti gun and/or non-anti or anti CCW, sadly, would answer thus: "The government has to do a better job of securing my personal safety." And they'd actually believe such a tragedy is forseeable and preventable, and will seek to blame everyone but the one crazed nut job that does this kind of thing. Note: the non-use of the word "pro gun" and use of "non-anti" above is to indicate those that will mouth the words that indicate they belive in the right to carry arm, but wont lift a finger to actually secure that right.
Last edited by .280Rem; 04/17/07.
War Damn Eagle!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,860
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,860 |
You did hear this is the largest mass killing in american school history? BS. It was the largest college killing is US history. A school board member killed his wife then went on to firebomb a school killing 43 people, the majority of the dead were school children. The event occured in Bath Township MI back in 1927. research Andrew Kehoe.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,119 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,119 Likes: 2 |
I hate for the blaming to begin so soon, from the Univ admin to the Police. It seems our culture breeds this "if something bad happens, it somebody's fault somewhere" attitude. This crime is just so devastating, so bad, it's depressing. And the fact is in a free society, it is going to be impossible in every event to stop a madman from such carnage. In a police state, maybe.
And you can be sure, as already has happened, in one instance, the vociferous call for more gun control is an immediate affect.
All this blaming, calling for more gun control, etc., is like putting a band-aid on an aortic rupture. Nobody, as in the Imus Case (a crude, shock jock but in a crude culture), is looking at the bigger picture of cultural violence, break-up of the family, the de-valuing of human life, and the secular leveling of all values that used to generally guide our society. Gdv
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,787
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,787 |
300wby You can place the blame wherever you want, but Tod is correct. There is no legal obligation for the police to protect any individual citizen.
Bottom line is, this is a no win situation. If the PD had gone into "active shooter" mode, people would have been crying foul. By not locking down the campus, it upsets the other half. Fact is, I wasn't there and I'm not going to second guess the decisions made.
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
|
|
|
|
113 members (1OntarioJim, 6mmCreedmoor, 338reddog, 14idaho, 01Foreman400, 8 invisible),
1,488
guests, and
831
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,370
Posts18,488,324
Members73,970
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|