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I'm not sure if this has been discussed. I may have not read all of the thread. Obviously all blame begins and ends with the shooter. Hindsight is always 20-20 and what ifs can be discussed forever. The question I have concerns tactics by law enforcement. I thought after Columbine tactics were for first responders to enter, find and engage the active shooter. I know they recently practiced a similar scenario here in our town. Surely police were cruising the campus with a description and may have had some idea who they were looking for. They acknowledge the domestic aspect to the first shooting. I would think someone would have been close by when the 2nd shooting started. I'm sure cell phone 911 calls were coming in within seconds. How could he visit several rooms, scuffle with people over doors etc. without being engaged by law enforcement unless they followed old tactics and set up a perimeter as in a hostage situation.
Mike J
Character is defined by what you do when no one is looking.
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My point is you go into the room 2 people are dead and no weapon, a killer is on the loose, it is as simple as that. How much detective work does it take to find the weapon. When their ain't one you have a problem. That is exactly WHY they should have sent out warnings right then, not 2 hours later..........Blake
People sleep peaceable in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
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Anyone have the statistics on how many events similar to the first shooting happen in a year in the U. S.? I'll bet there are at least fifty in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota alone -- shootings that clearly look like isolated incidents. What would life be like if every time some people died from shootings that looked like a domestic dispute or a drug deal gone bad, there was a "lock down" of the surrounding community -- whether a suburb, several blocks of a downtown area, or a college campus?
Al
Spend your life wisely.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Al;
In those areas, at least people have the option of being armed.
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People sleep peaceable in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
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Campfire Ranger
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I'm not sure if this has been discussed. I may have not read all of the thread. Obviously all blame begins and ends with the shooter. Hindsight is always 20-20 and what ifs can be discussed forever. The question I have concerns tactics by law enforcement. I thought after Columbine tactics were for first responders to enter, find and engage the active shooter. I know they recently practiced a similar scenario here in our town. Surely police were cruising the campus with a description and may have had some idea who they were looking for. They acknowledge the domestic aspect to the first shooting. I would think someone would have been close by when the 2nd shooting started. I'm sure cell phone 911 calls were coming in within seconds. How could he visit several rooms, scuffle with people over doors etc. without being engaged by law enforcement unless they followed old tactics and set up a perimeter as in a hostage situation. The second shooting occurred in another building on the other side of the college campus...there are probably a hundred buildings on that campus and the two buildings might have been a half a mile or more from each other. Nobody knows yet how fast the second groups of killings occurred, or whether or not the LEOs entered as soon as they arrived. I too have seen some footage but have no idea if some had already entered the building. It would be a good bet that the bulk of the cops were searching or investigating at the first crime seen when the second call came in. It is a big campus. I want to hear the law enforcements train of thought. I'm not even sure who is responsible for locking down or putting out the alert on the campus, the police, campus police, or the College admin. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.cos.vt.edu/about/campusmap.jpg)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Barkoff;
Have you ever been on the Tech campus?
I have. I know it very well; went there for 3 years, and have SEEN it locked down before, have HEARD the campus alert systems used (which were not this time), and KNOW that area.
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Campfire Ranger
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Barkoff;
Have you ever been on the Tech campus?
I have. I know it very well; went there for 3 years, and have SEEN it locked down before, have HEARD the campus alert systems used (which were not this time), and KNOW that area. No I haven't, not doubting you know the campus better that I...let me ask you then, why do you suppose they didn't use the campus alert system as you describe? Since you know the system, who are you holding responsible for not sounding the alert, police, college police, college administration? Who makes that call? The reason I posted the map is because I searched it to better understand the distances involved. The two scenes in red boxes are a fair distance from each other ![[Linked Image]](http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/mikemarkca/campusmap.jpg)
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Campfire Outfitter
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Barkoff,
If there's any scale to that map, its less than 1000yds, and could be covered at a brisk walk in less than 10 minutes. This guy most likely went somewhere first to a staging/hiding area, to pick up something, think, prepare, whatever.
War Damn Eagle!
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1/2 mile to be near exact Jim. It's a two beer walk!
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Kahuna
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Two beer walk, about 1/2 mile.
Why wasn't the alert system used? That's a $64,000,000.00 question.
Responsibility for that, and for not locking the campus down, lies at the feet of the University President.
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You ain't getting an argument from me Sean.
Erring on the side of caution and calling off all campus classes would have emptied the classrooms at least.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Said in an article that he went back to his apartment, left a suicide type note blaming his motives on everyone else, gathered up some more ammo, and then left to do the second shooting.
Pretty cold blooded.
Will
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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I guess what disturbed me was the video of all the swat type LEO's outside while you could here shooting and screaming inside. It just seems to me some of them should have been inside. I know a lot of shooting can be done in 4-5 minutes. I believe it went on significantly longer from what I have seen/heard. I have heard nothing on the specific tactics used once responders arrived. I wonder if a perimeter was set up and swat was waited on. I have heard that is not the current accepted tactic. My son is a LEO and they drill get in and stop it however possible.
Mike J
Character is defined by what you do when no one is looking.
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Makes sense to me. A lock down may have kept him there or at least a bit more isolated.The fact remains is that these young adults should have been alerted. What they did with the info is their call. At least an alert would have compelled closer scrutiny of the folks roaming around there.
Last edited by isaac; 04/17/07.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward
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Campfire Kahuna
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Back in the heartland, Thank God!
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All I have to say is that if a gunman walked in a classroom at Texas A&M University where the majority of folks have been in and around firearms their whole life, I'd like to see how many this guy would have got before he was mauled....
Point is, and like previously stated, we need to know facts before judging starts...
That said, we know with some certainty that he killed via execution style and my thoughts are why the heck did the kids allow themselves to be slaughtered without attempting to do something? But I don't want to be quick to judge what went on if this was not the case..
I think I know the answer but let's let the details come out first...
My thoughts and prayers all morning have been with the kids and parents of VA Tech students and for the whole state....
-Greg
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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At least an alert would have at least compelled closer scrutiny of the folks roaming around there.
On this we can all agree!
War Damn Eagle!
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I guess what disturbed me was the video of all the swat type LEO's outside while you could here shooting and screaming inside. It just seems to me some of them should have been inside. I know a lot of shooting can be done in 4-5 minutes. I believe it went on significantly longer from what I have seen/heard. I have heard nothing on the specific tactics used once responders arrived. I wonder if a perimeter was set up and swat was waited on. I have heard that is not the current accepted tactic. My son is a LEO and they drill get in and stop it however possible. and that was the idiotic point I was trying to make yesterday. The cell phone video clearly shows five LEO's standing outside while twenty plus shots rang out. Why were they not inside? Columbine should have changed the tactics of law enforcement. Seems it didnt. The first people there need to be able to go in.
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At least an alert would have at least compelled closer scrutiny of the folks roaming around there.
On this we can all agree! +1
Mike J
Character is defined by what you do when no one is looking.
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