Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire LEO Failure

I live in this area so I will add my 2cents. Our area is very small and the population is spread out. I work about 30 miles away from Blacksburg where most of the population is located in the area. Virginia Tech has about 82-83 officers of which, 9-11 were working on the horrible day that this event occurred. Two or three officers were probably sitting in court located miles away from campus. The other officers on duty were at the first homicide scene (Evidence Tech, Investigator, Officer to secure the scene) and the others were with the probable suspect. All of this was going on with 1 or 2 telecommunicators on duty.

When all hell broke loose, other jurisdictions from up to 70 miles away came in with their azzs on fire. A lot of cops in the area has kids at Tech. Blacksburg PD, Christiansburg, Montgomery County were the closest to campus. I bet it took at least 5 minutes for these cops to arrive on scene. The problem comes in when the other jurisdiction arrived. There were probably at least 40-50 jurisdictions represented and they all can't communicate with one another. When most of the other jurisdictions responded they just went to VA Tech. The campus is a small city, so these cops did not know where to go. This is why you see cops running all over the place on t.v. Several people in the community have shared their observations of hundreds of police cars running flat out headed down to Tech. The few dispatchers at VA Tech could not have kept up with the 911 calls and the other jurisdictions screaming for directions.

I'm not here defending everything the police did, but lets look at the facts. I shoot IPSC and IDPA and those of us who do know how long it takes to shoot a 100 round course. I usually shoot 6 stages under 90 seconds. I have a feeling that most of the horrible events that occurred had already happend by the time the cops figured out were the SOB was at. The students video of the event shows 3-4 tactical officers standing near the building when gun fire is errupting. The video does not show the other four corners of the building and the other units that made entry.

Most of the phone circuits were overloaded during this event so not many calls went through. I don't mean to offend anyone but this is just my opinion on the incident. The hero of the day would have been an armed student sitting in class.

300wby,

I don't know how much authority you think the police actually have, but you better rethink it. Unless things are VERY different in VA, a line cop doesn't just get to drive and and say "lock down the (insert here: block, town, Tech, University, etc.)". We can attempt to set up a PERIMETER but that's about it. If I walked into my local school (a Middle/Elementary School for reference) during a bomb threat and instructed the Principal to "lock it down" he would tell me to piss off. Now apply that on a much larger scale. You can throw blame all you want, but it boils down to the a**hole with the gun.

George

As stated; the lockdown authority rests with the University President; no one else.

BigBoreFan,

Stop trying to introduce facts and logic . I work in an area that is dispatched through our County. That means we know when the SHTF on the other side of the County. Don't think that there haven't been multiple times when all you can see is blue lights headed for an area that would take a normal person 20-30 minutes to get to. THAT is what we do. The fact is, however, that by the time most of us get there, the damage is done and all we can do is help pick up the pieces. I don't like that any more than anybody else, but it is what it is.

George

NH K9... amigo and fellow dogman, truer words were never spoken.

Do you actually believe what you're saying?
You're telling me that law enforcement cant initiate a lock down on campus? After a damn double murder the law cant restrict movement on a campus?
That's bullshit and you know it.

That's just not the case here man. You don't get that. The police were ON SCENE while the shooting was occurring!!!!
You have a gun and a badge and you stand around while people are getting killed because it's policy and procedure? Fu ck that man. The law screwed up this time just as bad as they did in Littleton. Believe me I happened to be working w/in ear shot of Columbine....the cops didn't do [bleep].

All this back and forth regarding not relying on the police to protect yourself is bullshit.
The law doesn't allow you to protect yourself against a gunman.
Hell the law wont let you protect yourself against a man with a knife.

Hey 300- Can you express a thought without foul language? Try it pal, would ya.?

You were working within ear shot of Columbine? Why didn't you go and stop it then? What? No guts?

No doubt there were mistakes made and it'll be analyzed to death for years to come. The plain fact is there just isn't a lot you can do to stop a determined person intent on harming people and with no regard for himself. Look at Iran and Israel. Look at the Presidents that have been shot. Had a student or faculty member been armed it MIGHT have turned out different. Had this killer gotten help prior to this it would have helped. Had the victims fought back it might have been different. It's all specutlation and only proves we're frustrated at the whole thing.

NHK9- Yeah, I love it when I go to a school to interview someone and the brass there treats me like Satan himself just stepped through the door. Jeeze guys! I'm here about a car accident, not to rubber hose a 7 year old! Gotta love police work and the sense of citizenship our modern society displays.

Um, yeah, I actually believe it. I looked it up in the VT administration and campus rules.

Law enforcement can restrict movement, yes, and they do. BUT, the authority to lock down a state university rests with the president of that university; same as it does with any private institution. This is not a police state (yet), and the police don't have absolute authority to control everything (yet).

300wby,

I'm not going to argue Columbine. Mistakes were made and we, as a LE community, learned from them. Do you KNOW how many LEOs were on scene? Do you KNOW where they were? Do you KNOW how many were making entry vs how many were on perimeter? Do you KNOW any of these things? I don't. The FACT is that if I was ordered to maintain a perimeter while others were making entry, that is where I would be. I wouldn't like it but I would do it. If I was making entry and somebody that was supposed to be on perimeter left and the BG escaped because of it, I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem with that either.

"All this back and forth regarding not relying on the police to protect yourself is bullshit.
The law doesn't allow you to protect yourself against a gunman.
Hell the law wont let you protect yourself against a man with a knife."

I don't live in Colorado and don't know your laws. I would be willing to bet, though, that your statement is incorrect. I can quote you the NH RSA if you want (without looking it up) but you can defend yourself in either of these situations with deadly force.

George

1. The ultimate power and responsibility for VT safety is with its president.

2. The VT president seems to have selected a Casper Milquetoast campus police chief or policy.

I am quite disappointed that the media has not drawn an analogy to the 911 four planes and flight 93 and class room safety tactics.

It seems that if the average age at VT was 76 yo we would have a better result!

Savage_99;

You are forgetting the kids that barricaded themselves in classrooms, the ones injured who saved their own lives by application of first aid, those who sought safety by jumping out of windows because they had no means of defense...

I'm late to this thread, but put MILES of walking in on this campus, grew up on the other end of the county, and have spent almost my entire adult life as an emergency services provider. I think it is absurd for folks who don't know the people here, or how the campus and town work, to make snap judgements and call for veryone to be sued and/or fired. I appreciate the fact that most of you here are willing to be civil and listen to everything being said.

I can't add much, except to say that the administration has vehemently denied the student's right to defend themselves (i.e., denied legal carry of concealed weapons)and then failed to protect them. For this the administration should hang.

For what it's worth, I don't think a campus-wide lock-down was indicated after the initial "domestic" . Does your small town completely lock down after every instance of domestic ? Based on findings through today, the investigating agencies ON THE SCENE (and I think that part is important) including state police, FBI, and ATF support the actions of the campus and Blacksburg police up to the point of the second .

VT's Police Chief is a good man, trying to do a good job with what he's dealt. I know this for a fact. He is not the backward hick some of you may think he is, based on his TV appearances.


My final thought:

300wby, you belong on a news media staff somewhere, rather than this forum. Like you, they are good at spewing facts and sensationalism before the dust has even settled. You know nothing about this county or campus, yet based on a few media blurbs you judge us all. You would do us an immense favor by bowing out quietly.

Thanks to all of y'all for your support and concern. Please remember to pray for the victims and their families.

Y'all take care, Regan

I agree with this point 100 percent.

A breath of fresh air!

I didn't forget. The student effort was just about useless due to a lack of a plan.

Whats missing is whats usually missing. Knowledge.

A buddy of mine who is very strong said after 911 "Now that I know, nobody with a box cutter is going to fly me into the ground."

Meanwhile the media debates psychological details and more gun control. For every tactic there is a countermeasure. I am waiting for someone to discuss the 'Flight 93' tactic.

Flight 93

For zero tactical knowledge of the occurrences going on around them, zero training, and near zero resources available, I give those students that actually did something a helluva lot more credit than you seem to.

Any student who did ANYTHING deserves some credit. Someday we will again have a generation that will charge somebody in this situation. I'm not sure I'll ever see that day. I can't blame the kids because that's the way they were raised. I thank my dad and grandfather for raising me with the "warrior mentality" (no offense mom). I'll repay that debt by teaching my boy the same. Hopefully some parents will take their cue and do the same.

Please note: I don't mean any disrespect towards the parents of any students on campus. It is what it is. I'm sure those on this board who are reading this message have taught their kids the same. Unfortunately, I think we're the minority.

+ 1.

NH K9; thank you. Not everyone thinks that they should have, or would have, reacted differently. We, were not there. They, were.

All reacted as they thought they should in that situation. As with everything in life, some made wise decisions, some did not.

Who are we, to criticize the dead for actions they took, that we cannot fathom?

Let them rest, in their peace.

My nephew graduated from VT last year. He phoned yesterday to confirm his close friend was killed during the shooting. Sad news.

I'm sure those kids went through more hell than they ever imagined. I'm sure they did the best they could and they must have felt overwhelmed.

Most of us have lost touch that these young kids may not have had as tough an upbringing as some of the older generations had. My brother and I along w/ our peers were outdoor persons. We were exposed to firearms and even carried them to show and tell at school. We were in many informal fist fights throughout our youth experiencing the fight or flight syndrome more than once. Like many parents, we've strived to provide a better life for our kids. My brother is older and had his son first. I noticed early on that his kid spent more time on the computer and in the classroom than outdoors. By the time he was accepted to VT, he and his peers appeared to be beautiful young adults w/ bright futures, but, it appeared many to include my nephew were a bit more sheltered than my brother and I had been. I don't even think my nephew had ever been punched in the nose once in his entire life.

As for me, I've been in a gun battle and have been in numerous fights w/ many armed felons over the last couple of decades. I have a degree of confidence based on my training and experience that I can fight and I can win. But, my perspective and view of the situation when faced w/ deadly force probably is not the same as many of those young VT students. That entire area is very sheltered. Prior to this tradgedy, the entire Blacksburg area experienced only about a half dozen murders over the last decade and a half. I can only imagine what shock they must have been in to be exposed to this mountain of violence in such a short span of time. I think it is in bad taste to judge these victims negatively based on any of your perceptions of what you think you would have done or what you think they should have done. That is not in the same spirit as trying to learn to better ourselves for the future.

My deepest sympathy to any of you who have suffered loss from this tragedy. My prayers are with you.

GVA