Here's to how very WELL founded,your Insecurities are. Congratulations?!?
Hint.............
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
Listened to a Podcast the other day and a guide from Alaska who has guided over 100 Grizz/Brown Bears recommends a 300RUM shooting 200 Barnes.
His reasoning was if the first shot doesn't anchor and the bear runs into the alders, it's still shooting flat enough for most when that bear runs out the other side at 350 yds.
Listened to a Podcast the other day and a guide from Alaska who has guided over 100 Grizz/Brown Bears recommends a 300RUM shooting 200 Barnes.
His reasoning was if the first shot doesn't anchor and the bear runs into the alders, it's still shooting flat enough for most when that bear runs out the other side at 350 yds.
That is a really good argument for avoiding pumpkin chuckers, but that is mighty specific choice for the 350 yard shot. Certainly not a bad one, but make it short enough and it will be mighty loud and scary when it goes off. Would give many a flinch...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Always figured my Marlin 1895 would suffice. Shoots flat enough out to 300 yards and those fat, heavy bullets don't like to stop.
-50 inches at 300 yards is flat enough?
Sorry, not close for a rifle where you might actually be trying to kill a bear moving out at 300 or more yards. I have dealt with the situation several times. If you have someone to clean up after you, okay.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Always figured my Marlin 1895 would suffice. Shoots flat enough out to 300 yards and those fat, heavy bullets don't like to stop.
-50 inches at 300 yards is flat enough?
Sorry, not close for a rifle where you might actually be trying to kill a bear moving out at 300 or more yards. I have dealt with the situation several times. If you have someone to clean up after you, okay.
Try MPBR zero for a 6" diameter target, 350g North Fork @ 2181fps and -22" at 300, not -50".
By the way, Klikitarik from here on the 24 killed a grizzly with one of my .45-70 North Fork handloads some years back. He posted a photo on the old Marlin or Levergunluvers forums, if not here), but I don't have a link. It is referenced here, though: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...34851/re-survey-grizzly-guns#Post1734851
[Edited to add]
Think this is the bear mentioned above: [https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/973787/re-big-bear-bullet#Post973787[/url]
His description:
"No bear is impressed by how big the bore, the cartridge, or the bullet is. But even the "puny" 45-70 (at over 200 yards) gave the seven foot plus brownie I got this fall an instant stop sign when I ran a North Fork through the chest diagonally - last rib on one side, scapula on the other and everything in between. Bam-Flop."
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 04/27/19. Reason: clarity
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
North Fork does not think that is a good bullet for brown bears at the velocity you are running...
A sample of one is hardly persuasive. The bigger point though is the difference between a handy piece for protection and going hunting. Having someone else there backing you up should a wounded bear try to go over the mountain, very common, versus coming at you.
I think our ideas of MPBR on a brown bear are different.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
This is the one I like to have when I'm in brown bear territory. After I finally got the McMillan stock, I just decided to leave it in the factory walnut stock, until I break it in the field. Then, one day I took it out of the safe to go hunting boars, I noticed the fore end was warped badly. against the left side of the barrel, even though my free-float originally gave it 1/16" clearance. So it was Mac time. Wood stocks suck (and warp). I cut the barrel on this Ruger African 9.3x62 to 21". It weighs 7 pounds 4 ounces with the irons. and 5 ounces more with a red dot. For hunting boars I use the irons or red dot. If I go for a bear, I have a Leupold 2.5x in rings, already sighted in.
North Fork does not think that is a good bullet for brown bears at the velocity you are running...
A sample of one is hardly persuasive. The bigger point though is the difference between a handy piece for protection and going hunting. Having someone else there backing you up should a wounded bear try to go over the mountain, very common, versus coming at you.
I think our ideas of MPBR on a brown bear are different.
The only North Fork comment I can find regarding the 350g FP is this:
Quote
The primary use for this bullet is in Ruger #1 rifles chambered for 45-70. The lighter weight and subsequent higher muzzle velocities, together with the lower initial opening velocities of the bullet, makes the #1 a viable 200+ yard bear, bore, and elk gun.
I assume by "bore" they mean "boar".
Ruger #1 "velocities"? Hornady lists a maximum velocity of 2200fps for a Ruger #1 and 350g bullets. My loads run 2181fps, hardly a big enough difference to merit much discussion. Mike Brady, the creator of the North Fork bullet line (since sold) pressure tested my loads and found them to be lower pressure than the PMC .45-70 loads that were available at the time for Marlin rifles.
While I have no experience with bears of any kind, I have killed a buck mule deer at 197 yards and a 6x6 bull elk at 213 yards with the 350g North Fork load. (Both yardages were lasered.) The buck was quartering away and the bullet entered through the ribs and exited the far side through the leg. The buck made a tight circle and dropped. The snow looked like someone had sloshed blood out of a five gallon bucket. In the case of the bull elk, the bullet obliterated sections of the left front leg bone and a near-side rib, shattered a far-side rib and came to rest under the hide.The bull didn't fall, but it didn't move, either. It just tipped over sideways before I could take another shot.
There is no doubt in my mind that my .45-70 and 350g North Fork would be a much better choice than many rifle/bullet combinations that have been used over the years to take grizzly/browns.
A 6" MPBR is how I zero most of my rifles. That gives a maximum 3" rise above or drop below line of sight out to the MPBR range, which turns out to be about 200 yards for my load. For defensive ranges the load starts with 3606fpe at the muzzle and still has over 3150fpe at 50 yards. At 200 yards it is still chugging along at about 1575fps with 1932fpe. At 300 is is down to 1330fps and 1390fpe and, although it won't expand as much if no bones are hit, still has the destructive and penetrating ability of a .45 flat-point, which is considerable. I've seen much slower (350g @ 1167fps) hardcast bullets penetrate 11-12 one-gallon water jugs and keep on going in repeated tests.
Now, would the .45-70 and the North Fork load be my first choice for a 300 yard first shot? No. !'d probably want my .338WM for that.
Edited to add: There are many who contend that momentum is more important than energy. My .45-70/350g North Fork load has more momentum at 200 yards than my 3033fps MV .300WM/180g TTSX load has at the muzzle and more than my 2760fps MV .338WM/225g AccuBond load has at 185 yards.
BTW, the 350g recovered from the bull elk at 213 yards (about 1540fps at impact) had expanded to .6225" and down to the top groove, which is considerably more than the North Fork gelatin tests at 1500fps. Visually it looks pretty much like what you would expect from a 2300fps impact in gelatin based on the North Fork photos at 2200 and 2400fps. https://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/products/bullets/458-350-ss.html/#
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 04/27/19. Reason: edit to add, as noted
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
You boys have some pretty rifles! My rifle looks like the ”ugly stepsister”, when placed beside some of those ! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
North Fork does not think that is a good bullet for brown bears at the velocity you are running...
A sample of one is hardly persuasive. The bigger point though is the difference between a handy piece for protection and going hunting. Having someone else there backing you up should a wounded bear try to go over the mountain, very common, versus coming at you.
I think our ideas of MPBR on a brown bear are different.
The only North Fork comment I can find regarding the 350g FP is this:
Quote
The primary use for this bullet is in Ruger #1 rifles chambered for 45-70. The lighter weight and subsequent higher muzzle velocities, together with the lower initial opening velocities of the bullet, makes the #1 a viable 200+ yard bear, bore, and elk gun.
I assume by "bore" they mean "boar".
Ruger #1 "velocities"? Hornady lists a maximum velocity of 2200fps for a Ruger #1 and 350g bullets. My loads run 2181fps, hardly a big enough difference to merit much discussion. Mike Brady, the creator of the North Fork bullet line (since sold) pressure tested my loads and found them to be lower pressure than the PMC .45-70 loads that were available at the time for Marlin rifles.
While I have no experience with bears of any kind, I have killed a buck mule deer at 197 yards and a 6x6 bull elk at 213 yards with the 350g North Fork load. (Both yardages were lasered.) The buck was quartering away and the bullet entered through the ribs and exited the far side through the leg. The buck made a tight circle and dropped. The snow looked like someone had sloshed blood out of a five gallon bucket. In the case of the bull elk, the bullet obliterated sections of the left front leg bone and a near-side rib, shattered a far-side rib and came to rest under the hide.The bull didn't fall, but it didn't move, either. It just tipped over sideways before I could take another shot.
There is no doubt in my mind that my .45-70 and 350g North Fork would be a much better choice than many rifle/bullet combinations that have been used over the years to take grizzly/browns.
A 6" MPBR is how I zero most of my rifles. That gives a maximum 3" rise above or drop below line of sight out to the MPBR range, which turns out to be about 200 yards for my load. For defensive ranges the load starts with 3606fpe at the muzzle and still has over 3150fpe at 50 yards. At 200 yards it is still chugging along at about 1575fps with 1932fpe. At 300 is is down to 1330fps and 1390fpe and, although it won't expand as much if no bones are hit, still has the destructive and penetrating ability of a .45 flat-point, which is considerable. I've seen much slower (350g @ 1167fps) hardcast bullets penetrate 11-12 one-gallon water jugs and keep on going in repeated tests.
Now, would the .45-70 and the North Fork load be my first choice for a 300 yard first shot? No. !'d probably want my .338WM for that.
Edited to add: There are many who contend that momentum is more important than energy. My .45-70/350g North Fork load has more momentum at 200 yards than my 3033fps MV .300WM/180g TTSX load has at the muzzle and more than my 2760fps MV .338WM/225g AccuBond load has at 185 yards.
BTW, the 350g recovered from the bull elk at 213 yards (about 1540fps at impact) had expanded to .6225" and down to the top groove, which is considerably more than the North Fork gelatin tests at 1500fps. Visually it looks pretty much like what you would expect from a 2300fps impact in gelatin based on the North Fork photos at 2200 and 2400fps. https://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/products/bullets/458-350-ss.html/#
Could not find the reference again on their website where they stated it as "to 200 yards" but it is still not a situation I would deliberately put myself in.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
North Fork does not think that is a good bullet for brown bears at the velocity you are running...
A sample of one is hardly persuasive. The bigger point though is the difference between a handy piece for protection and going hunting. Having someone else there backing you up should a wounded bear try to go over the mountain, very common, versus coming at you.
I think our ideas of MPBR on a brown bear are different.
The only North Fork comment I can find regarding the 350g FP is this:
Quote
The primary use for this bullet is in Ruger #1 rifles chambered for 45-70. The lighter weight and subsequent higher muzzle velocities, together with the lower initial opening velocities of the bullet, makes the #1 a viable 200+ yard bear, bore, and elk gun.
I assume by "bore" they mean "boar".
Ruger #1 "velocities"? Hornady lists a maximum velocity of 2200fps for a Ruger #1 and 350g bullets. My loads run 2181fps, hardly a big enough difference to merit much discussion. Mike Brady, the creator of the North Fork bullet line (since sold) pressure tested my loads and found them to be lower pressure than the PMC .45-70 loads that were available at the time for Marlin rifles.
While I have no experience with bears of any kind, I have killed a buck mule deer at 197 yards and a 6x6 bull elk at 213 yards with the 350g North Fork load. (Both yardages were lasered.) The buck was quartering away and the bullet entered through the ribs and exited the far side through the leg. The buck made a tight circle and dropped. The snow looked like someone had sloshed blood out of a five gallon bucket. In the case of the bull elk, the bullet obliterated sections of the left front leg bone and a near-side rib, shattered a far-side rib and came to rest under the hide.The bull didn't fall, but it didn't move, either. It just tipped over sideways before I could take another shot.
There is no doubt in my mind that my .45-70 and 350g North Fork would be a much better choice than many rifle/bullet combinations that have been used over the years to take grizzly/browns.
A 6" MPBR is how I zero most of my rifles. That gives a maximum 3" rise above or drop below line of sight out to the MPBR range, which turns out to be about 200 yards for my load. For defensive ranges the load starts with 3606fpe at the muzzle and still has over 3150fpe at 50 yards. At 200 yards it is still chugging along at about 1575fps with 1932fpe. At 300 is is down to 1330fps and 1390fpe and, although it won't expand as much if no bones are hit, still has the destructive and penetrating ability of a .45 flat-point, which is considerable. I've seen much slower (350g @ 1167fps) hardcast bullets penetrate 11-12 one-gallon water jugs and keep on going in repeated tests.
Now, would the .45-70 and the North Fork load be my first choice for a 300 yard first shot? No. !'d probably want my .338WM for that.
Edited to add: There are many who contend that momentum is more important than energy. My .45-70/350g North Fork load has more momentum at 200 yards than my 3033fps MV .300WM/180g TTSX load has at the muzzle and more than my 2760fps MV .338WM/225g AccuBond load has at 185 yards.
BTW, the 350g recovered from the bull elk at 213 yards (about 1540fps at impact) had expanded to .6225" and down to the top groove, which is considerably more than the North Fork gelatin tests at 1500fps. Visually it looks pretty much like what you would expect from a 2300fps impact in gelatin based on the North Fork photos at 2200 and 2400fps. https://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/products/bullets/458-350-ss.html/#
Could not find the reference again on their website where they stated it as "to 200 yards" but it is still not a situation I would deliberately put myself in.
Quick Overview The primary use for this bullet is in Ruger #1 rifles chambered for 45-70. The lighter weight and subsequent higher muzzle velocities, together with the lower initial opening velocities of the bullet, makes the #1 a viable 200+ yard bear, bore, and elk gun. The bullet will withstand anything that a 458 Winchester Magnum can dish out, but the sectional density may be a little low for initiating up close and not so friendly confrontations with a half-ton of brown bear. That situation would be better served with the 458-400 grain bullet.
S.D. is "only" .238 for the 350g while the 400g they recommend is .272. Given the bonded front core and mono rear construction and what I've seen the.458"/ 350g (and 7mm and .30 North Fork bullets, too, for that matter) do on game, S.D. is not the concern it might be with a standard cup and core bullet - especially those with a lighter weight and a smaller diameter. To me it is very much the same as using a TTSX or other mono compared to a cup and core bullet.
If I was shooting a .458 Win Mag or similar the 400g bullet* might* be more appropriate, but 2018fps (maximum velocity listed for Speer 400g) and at the 300 yards you are concerned about it would have lower velocity and energy and 29" drop vs 22" for the 350g. The 400g load would also have significantly more recoil, extending recovery time. The advantage in momentum at 300 yards would go to the 400g but only by a minuscule 2%. The 350g load has proven itself at the range, in water jugs and on live game. If I ever head out to hunt grizzly/browns I'll take a proven load, not one with which I have no or only range experience.
While water jug tests are not the same as flesh and blood and bone, neither are gelatin tests - and water is more consistent than improperly prepared or calibrated gelatin. In the water jug tests, the .45-70/350g North Fork compared very well to other bullets I've tested:
If headed to AK to hung big bears I would not buy a rifle specific to that purpose. That leaves me with what I have or may have at the time. If headed out tomorrow, the .45-70 or .338WM would be my choice and the final decision might well come down to the weather forecast - the .338 is stainless with a boat paddle stock.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 04/28/19. Reason: typo corrected
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
I have a Winchester 1895 in 30-03 Winchester that belonged to Al Taylor of Lower Tonsina. He used it almost exclusively in 60 years of living between the Copper and Tonsina Rivers and running a fish trap down there for probably 40 years. He would kill 3-5 brown bears/Grizzlies per year with this rifle. He would use store bought Winchester 180 grain silver tips. It is worn down to probably 65% NRA condition and I probably will not hunt with it but I might send it in to Turnbull to get it up to spec but I will not change the stock. He would kill them up close when they were a nuisance and then he would nonchalantly say that another bear took a swim. He might not register to anyone on this forum but he was always larger than life to me growing up.
I really like my Whitworth Express 458 Win Mag. I think that is probably the gun I would take into the alders with intentions for a big bear.
Well I think that guide makes good sense. I chose a rifle with the 35 bore that hurtles big medicine at 350 yards. I was looking at the .338 Winchester with Barnes but am just as happy my 358 Norma Magnum . 200 grain screamers through 250 grain thumpers. Rifle is a flat shooting Mauser custom 98. But that is my big thumper, It can easily reach out to 350 yards and then put a big hole in whatever it hits.
"A .358 Norma Mag is not for everyone but then again Bear hunting isn't either."
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