Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Accuracy Guarantee

Guys,

I have a few questions. First of the rifles you own does the company have an accuracy guarantee? (ie 1" 3 shot group at 100 yards)

If so does your rifle perform up to those standards? If not, what have you done to get it within spec? (ie sent it back to the factory)

Also, accuracy guarantee's whos the best company for this today? Not custom rifles either. Thanks for the help

In terms of factory rifles as well as custom rifles, the most accurate I have ever owned (and currently own) came with no guarantee of accuracy whatsoever.

In the case of the top custom riflemakers whose work has been the most accurate and has exibited the best design and workmanship, it was understood that the product would shoot with superb accuracy and would be proven accurate or it never would have been shipped out to me in the first place. No guarantees were expressed or implied, I didn't ask for any, and in each case, I have never been disappointed with how these rifles functioned, nor was I disappointed with their accuracy.

The custom rifles I've owned that DID come with accuracy guarantees have never been as accurate or as well-built. Funny how it's worked out that way.........

Factory rifles have been the same way. The most accurate factory rifles I've owned have been Remington 700s and Winchester Model 70s (all vintages), and none of these rifles came with any sort of accuracy guarantee. Yet, they always have shot better than the other makes of factory rifles I've owned that did come with a guarantee.

Sounds funny, doesn't it?

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Buy a Cooper.

I have always thought that accuracy guarantees were complete markting BS.

What is guaranteed? Is it EVERY 3 shot gorup, or just an occasional 3 shot group? Is it with ALL ammo tried? What if your 308 only shoots 220gr RN solids into less than 1", it still meets the guarantee.

Accuracy guarantees also don't guarantee that the shooter can produce those groups. From what I have obsereved, there are darn few who can repeatedly produce sub-MOA groups from any rifle. There are probably even fewer who can consistently produce ammo that will shoot to those standards.

The only guarantee I am interested in is a guarantee that the work was done right, and that the rifle was put together properly. They guy I work with now doesn't make accuracy guarantees, but he absolutely guarantees that the work is flawless. Good enough for me.

CAS, I assume you mean Craig?

I guarantee that if you know how to handload and can shoot worth a dam you won't need any accuracy guarantee.

Nope, but most of my bullets do, as do my bows....

Of the 10 brands of firearms presently in the safe, only the Weatherby's came with a warranty. Each of those 3 perform better than advertised but one took a little tweaking. My most accurate unit (an Anschutz) did not come with a guarantee. 1Minute

From "Tommy Boy";

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening.
Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?
Ted Nelson, Customer: What's your point?
Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.
Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?
Tommy: Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of [bleep]. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.
Ted Nelson, Customer: [pause] Okay, I'll buy from you.
Tommy: Well, that's... What?

Funny how a good comedy with a lot of sarcasm can read true huh?

I LOVE THAT MOVIE!

What about you Sako owners? Anybody going to chime in? I am considering one in the future and would like to hear of others expierience.

I have always thought that accuracy guarantees were complete markting BS.

Truer words have never been spoken. I really like the part someone said about the "warm and fuzzy feeling"

I have a few guns that are true 1/2" shooters but in no way can I shoot them all day long and get 1/2" groups, conditions change, my shooting changes, to many varibles.

It is interesting to see how one really shoots. I take those printed out targets with the 6 bullseyes on them and will fire 6-3 shot groups. If I am lucky and conditions are near perfect, I may have 3 or 4 groups that are all touching but the other 2-3 or 4 may spred out to 3/4 to 1 maybe even more with a flyer or two.

The below is offered assuming the ammunition has not been custom loaded to the individual rifle. It is recognized that carefully tailoring ammunition to a particular rifle can enhance accuracy:

Having shot many groups from test barrels clamped into rail guns bolted to a concrete pedastal that extends 6' into the ground, I'm amazed at just how off I was about true accuracy. The first time I saw a rail gun I expected groups in the .1" range. When that didn't happen very often, I thought the barrel clamping position should be changed. We tried clamping on the muzzle and the results were the same. We tried clamping in many different spots. We tried other barrels.

What is realistic for a good rifle firing factory match ammunition? .75 MOA is probably realistic if everything is perfect. .5 MOA is encountered, but not very often.

Look at the brochure for a well known "Match" round. It lists 1.5" groups at 200 yards as their specification (I don't remember if they are 10-shot or 5-shot but they are shot out of test barrels in rail guns).

How could anyone build a rifle and guarantee it to shoot better than the factory ammuntion is claimed to be? How could anyone build lots of them?

You can shoot a .25" group with any rifle. One good group doesn't make a rifle...but it might fulfill a guarantee.

True accuracy can only be discovered by averaging multiple groups.

One fact may be that many shooters are better than they give themselves credit for. They assume that any group larger than .5" was their fault. It may not be their fault when a "flyer" opens the group up to .75"

Here is a little experiment with hard data:
10 rifles, 5 5-shot groups each.
First tested in a "return-to-battery" rest which takes out human error.
Next tested hand-held, benchrest and sandbags.
Sometimes the machine beat the humans (4 shooters trading off), sometimes the humans beat the machine. The difference was never very large.

The human average was subtracted from the machine average and a number, either positive or negative (depending on which "won") was created. All the numbers were added up and the result was:

0.00"

Wouldn't work out exactly like that again, but I'll bet it would be close.

Measurements were made with the Oehler M83 Acoustic system.

Ken said it best: "The longer I do this stuff the more I realize just how little I know".

Ive owned several SAKOs over the years, some would shoot the guaranteed 5 shot 1" group at 100yds but some would not. I agree with someone else on this post that the accuracy guarantees from WEATHERBY and SAKO are B S. there is just too many variables involved to ever hold one of these rifle makers to any accuracy guarantee and they know it. The most accurate rifle brand overall for me doesnt have an accuracy guarantee, REMINGTON. Ive also owned some mighty accurate BROWNING A-BOLTS........547.

I well remember the "test groups" with the Klienguenther rifles. These featured holes which were the same size regardless of caliber. Another classic was the Golden Eagle target which was speckled with powder burns.
It's like Allen Day said; good rifle builders don't give guarantees because there is no question the rifle will perform. Good makers are also well aware that there are too many variations for certainty when it comes to rifle accuracy.
In most cases, the alledged 1/2 inch rifles will shoot a 1/2 inch group about one out of five and will shoot 1 inch or larger at least twice that often. To me, I have a 1/2 inch rifle if, on any day with good conditions, I can say, "watch this" and shoot a 1/2 inch group, if not every time, at least most of the time.
The only test targets I put much faith in were those sent with the Remington 40-XBR rifles. GD

My 3 Tikkas came with a MOA guarantee and they all delivered with factory ammo.

I think the Sako's I've had came with a guarantee. I don't think to much of those guarantee's.

I almost always run some green box ammo through a rifle when I first mount a scope to get it on paper....and so I'll have some idea about how it will shoot something common if I don't have my handloads.

EVERY SAKO I DID THIS WITH SHOT THE GREEN STUFF UNDER AN INCH. This was just the first box of Remington stuff I could get my hands on.

Don't think much of a guarantee, but I think Sako makes a good rifle....

JCM

Kind of off topic but I remember when Robar was putting a submoa guarentee on their SR-60 sniper rifle in the early 1990's that was only $2800, going to the SR-90 with a 1/2 moa guarentee jumped it to $5000...now it seems like we expect that from a production rifle after a little bit of tweaking. Amazing how better machining has made it more common without the huge cost.

I appreciate all the info. THanks again guys.