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Joined: May 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 17,295 Likes: 5 |
Is there an updated and complete one anywhere?
Seems that most are missing many of the new powders.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,575 Likes: 7
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,575 Likes: 7 |
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,526 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,526 Likes: 1 |
Thanks for posting that link. I printed out a copy because we dinosaurs are kinda set in our ways with the old school powders and it's interesting to see where some of the "newbie" powders fit into the general scheme of things like burn rate.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,700 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,700 Likes: 4 |
I like the Western Powders chart. It actually shows burn rates in relation to other powders rather than just a linear list going from fastest to slowest. The chart is on the last page (112). Western Powders Burn Rate Chart
Z
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,019 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,019 Likes: 1 |
They still don't show RL26.Very little data fort it also.
Last edited by Blacktailer; 08/24/19.
I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all. Jack O'Connor
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 72
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 72 |
Lots of Reloder 26 data in the new Speer and Sierra manuals
Curiosity killed the cat, But for a while I was a suspect.
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313 |
They still don't show RL26.Very little data fort it also. Most serious reloaders have been using QuickLoad for years. The era of needing comprehensive reloading data is over, and that has to be affecting manufacturer's behavior. Since data doesn't drive sales any more (real performance as shown by QL and temp stability do) why bother?
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,575 Likes: 7
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,575 Likes: 7 |
QL doesn’t give ‘real performance’, it gives a modelled prediction. Chronographs give real performance data, and most manufacturers use them along with actual pressure measurements, not just predictive data, when publishing reloading manuals.
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,313 |
Actually at this point new manual writes dry lab it with QuickLoad - witness the Berger manual. But keep on thinking someone's pressure testing those loads for you
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14,488
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 14,488 |
They still don't show RL26.Very little data fort it also. Most serious reloaders have been using QuickLoad for years. The era of needing comprehensive reloading data is over, and that has to be affecting manufacturer's behavior. Since data doesn't drive sales any more (real performance as shown by QL and temp stability do) why bother? I could not disagree more. I've used QuickLOAD long enough to know NOT to rely on it as my only data source. It does not output load data, it outputs computed solutions that may or may not be accurate. Straight out of Berger's Cautionary Statement available on the web: "The loading data in this manual has been developed using a combination of handloading software and live fire testing." I wouldn't say they do or do NOT do any pressure testing based solely on that.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,162 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,162 Likes: 6 |
You might take a look at the NORMA burn chart. Nothing else like it anywhere out there. Priceless for wildcatting and unpublished load combinations. It uses IMR4350 as the baseline. Then rates the powders both ways from there, listing relative PRESSURE in addition to relative velocity. Unfortunately, it hasn't been updated for a while. We have been subjected to a virtual blizzard of 'new and improved' powders in the last few years.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 488
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 488 |
It should be noted that the “burn rate charts” do not test the rate of burning in a firearm, but in a “bomb” chamber. The question is, how does this test method relate to the burn rate in actual firearms? Perusing pressure-tested load data shows that two powders with adjacent chart positions can switch rate places in different cartridges, or even with different bullet weights in the same cartridge.
Most charts don’t show how much faster one powder is than an adjacent powder in the chart; they may be virtually the same, or they may differ quite a bit, we don’t know. These charts are interesting, but they shouldn’t be used as a definitive guide to powder performance - IMO anyway.
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Last edited by DoubleRadius; 08/29/19.
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,019 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,019 Likes: 1 |
That's why they are called "Relative Burn Rate Charts". Caveat emptor definitely applies.
I am continually astounded at how quickly people make up their minds on little evidence or none at all. Jack O'Connor
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755 |
They still don't show RL26.Very little data fort it also. Most serious reloaders have been using QuickLoad for years. The era of needing comprehensive reloading data is over, and that has to be affecting manufacturer's behavior. Since data doesn't drive sales any more (real performance as shown by QL and temp stability do) why bother? Nah, scratch that. Many of us serious reloaders have learned NOT to rely on Quickload.
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755 |
Most charts don’t show how much faster one powder is than an adjacent powder in the chart; they may be virtually the same, or they may differ quite a bit, we don’t know. These charts are interesting, but they shouldn’t be used as a definitive guide to powder performance - IMO anyway.
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Your points are well taken, and you are correct. However, two good charts are exceptions to the statement above, and are my favorites for that reason: the Western Powders chart, and the Lapua chart. I keep that Western chart on my reloading room wall, although I do wish they'd update it with the newest powders. As mentioned above, burn rates are not absolutes, but the Western chart gives a pretty good visual of the relative burn rate compared to other powders. https://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdfhttp://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/01/powder-watch-n133-lt-32-and-norma-powders-available-now/
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