Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles DRT Caliber...DRT Bullet... DRT Speed...DRT Distance

Quote... I mean.... come on now... if we had to pay out big money for a runner... then we would all be rethinking this whole concept about DRT Combos.

Jim... I believe you got it... that is my whole thought around the DRT combo... WITHOUT the CNS THING... or even the perfect high shoulder shot. It's not about the perfect shot.... but the boiler room area... with a little cushion to spare for those Non-Perfect shots.

My 22-243Ai will put the bullet in their ears all day long... and DRT them as well.... but that's not my Quest.

If I was your Dad back in the days when every bit of meat made a difference.... I'd spank you as well for a Non-CNS shot... LOL.

22 250 64 grain gold dot
25 06 100 nosler solid base

I have more DRT kills with the .270 than anything else. Used 130gr Game Kings, 1st Gen 150gr Ballistic Tips, and Hornady 140gr BTSPs launched from 2950 to 3100fps, depending on the bullet. Almost everything was lights out. Close second was the .257 Wby shooting 80gr TTSXs at 3700.

I keep saying I need to build another .270...

John

Ok, I am going to chime in here.

First, a high shoulder shot IS a CNS shot.

Second, if you don't hit CNS with something, then you will never get a reliable DRT animal. PERIOD. Even the "I shot it behind the shoulder and I got a DRT" shots, if you do a good necropsy, you will find that a piece of bullet or bone hit the CNS. All mammals are built such that they can take a good amount of abuse to their internal organs and still function for a while. You have to sever the connection between the brain and those organs in order to get a "lights out, right now" effect.

So, now that that is established, the amount of internal damage required to have an effect on the CNS with a traditional behind-the-shoulder shot requires either a bullet failure (i.e. multiple fragments) or a significant amount of shock (i.e. high frontal area at significant speeds). Both of those end up causing excessive damage to usable parts of the animal, and therefore should be avoided, in my opinion, not sought after.

Quote......a good necropsy, you will find that a piece of bullet or bone hit the CNS

NOT sure that is true... because the Barnes TTX Boys don't have bullets coming apart... and a Friend of mine always shoots on the diaphragm (mid body area) ... where there is NO bone or bullet fragments from his 7 UM with 140 TTX @ 3400 fps.... and they always are DRT... well that's what he says anyways....LOL.

I think the Hydro-static shock thing is the Major Player here. Flying bullet parts and bone pieces sure do have a role in this whole deal... but I have seen... experienced... and heard of DRT kills where it had to be mostly the shock thingy making them drop.

Someone with some real brains needs to come up with a chart that shows the Hydro-Static Shock Value of a given caliber - bullet weight - construction - SD- speed - range distance - etc... all the things that produce Shock Value.... putting aside bullet and bone parts flying all around... that is just extra good stuff.

I would figure it out, but I was out of school that day when they taught Hydro-Static Shock Values....LOL.

This is not true.

I have killed several deer that were DRT with a bow. Those deer had untouched CNS. They did not die instantly either.. Two hit the ground and died within seconds, one took a minute or two.

I have killed at least 8 deer in the last few years with an arrow that died within five seconds of being hit and none of them were CNS shots. Five seconds of life after impact can allow a deer to cover considerable ground. Five seconds of life to bleed one out completely can also be accompanied by zero blood trail or, a very, very sparse one. I have killed a number of them by driving a broadhead down through just above the sternum which runs it through the heart and the out near the umbilicus. That usually hits a little of one or both lungs, and regardless of broad head it would have to produce very similar results. At least one would think so. Yet, in my experience the results are neither better nor worse than typical behind the shoulder shots, but did produce one DRT. I have passed arrows and bullets just above the heart severing the vessels and leaving the heart loose in the chest, which should for all intents and purposes be equivalent to hitting the heart, yet the results have been inconsistent.

I have seen a couple deer shot in the skull with rifles that it looked like the legs kept moving for a coupe of strides. I don't know as that would fall into DRT category since those deer both were running as fast as they could at impact and they quit moving a good 30 feet past impact. I have seen deer hit in the head which more ore less evacuated the brain box but they went down and lashed around enough that they might not qualify as DRT, having moved 20-30 feet from impact.

The only hits which I have seen which have thus far been 100% DRT have all been brain stem shots which uniformly caused a sort of slow motion head drop followed by the body. Those hits also have shown me legs moving after a minute or so, but that was not with any speed or force and I just assume it was lack of oxygen induced. and had no chance of moving the deer.

This happened to me this year. Same cartridge, bullet and placement. Both didn't have hearts, but one was DRT, the other ran about 70 yards Midsize cartridge, under 3k, and not a frangible bullet.

I may have messed this whole thread up by making people think that my understanding of DRT.... means Dead Right There....... it's NOT... but rather..... Drop Right There.

Dropping them in their tracks is my whole point....if anyone got confused.... then I call....My Bad...LOL.

After looking at Nosler's load data chart... it makes the 270 cal, w/ 100 gr @ 3500 fps a SCREAMER... it just has to be a Knocker Downer.

BUT.... the 7 rem mag will do the same thing with a 120 gr bullet..... WOW.... go there 7 mag.

Very good!!

My buddy had a Vanguard put into a McMillan stock. After he shot some factory ammo in it I refilled his brass with the 7828 load from the old tan IMR booklet. It shot great so that was it for load development. Stuff just dropped quick.

Ya I ran a ultra lightweight for 20 years, smashed a lot a critters with that rifle. I just ran th factory 100 gr spire points.. great killin rifle

257 bee with one of three projectiles. 100 horn sp interlock,115 bt or 110 accubond.
Big Ed

For those deer (in bold), where did your arrow hit?

After getting so much Great response in this thread from shooters with actual experience, I thought i should look at my actual experience and compare it to what I'm wanting to experience in the future... so I made up this caliber - bullet - speed - comparison chart for a better and more realistic evaluation about other combos that at least match my 22-243 AI for DRT kill abilities at 300 yds.

I guess my whole point is.... that there are other combos on paper that should do the DRT kill thing... but I always ask for real life experiences from knowledgeable hunters... thanks...Dan

PS... I'm comparing ENERGY... because I think that is the DRT factor.



22-243Ai 80 amax 3500 fps ... produces .... at 300 yd .... 2830 fps.... 1422 energy

7 RM 120 gr 3400 fps... produces.... at 300 yd..... 2608 fps .... 1812 energy

257 weatherby 100 gr 3500 fps .... 300 yd .... 2895 fps.... 1861 energy

25/06 100 gr 3300 fps ...... 300 yd .... 2445 fps.... 1327 energy

257 110.00 gr 3200 ............ 300 .... 2517.... 1547 energy....

6.5 100 gr 3200 fps...... 300 yd .... 2412 fps.... 1292 energy

6.5 120 gr 3050 ......... 300.... 2455.... 1606 energy

LOL, Yes Sir they were, but, I had just graduated and double majored from the PO [blow a primer] Ackley and Layne [3600 fps or bust] Simpson school of ballistics research ; ]

One hit in the neck just right of the esophagus down into the chest and through the heart. It took out the carotid on the way through. Two inch rage head. Two little crow hops that went nowhere and it was on the ground with a couple of feeble kicks. Adult doe. Dead in maybe 5-7 seconds.

The other, mid rib cage left wide, angled just over the heart and hit the shoulder/humerus joint opposite side. 4 blade NAP Spitfire Doublecross. Just under 3 inches of total cut. Just tipped over and kicked feebly and that was it. Fawn Never touched the heart but same difference, it took out the vessels on top of the heart. Dead in 5-7 seconds.

The third deer was actually the second deer I ever shot with a bow. Entry was mid rib cage left side down and forward through the left lung and through the heart as it was crawling under a fence. It just sagged to the ground and died slowly. Adult doe. Dead in maybe two minutes. Maybe much less, I was only 14-15 and pretty whizzed up.

Edited to add: I have shot a fair number that died as fast or faster but ran some from where they were hit.

I have had the most DRT with a 30-06 and 165gr Rem Core Lokts.

But every deer I have shot with a .280 Rem hasn't taken a step.

If you can't find one that runs 10 yards, you need to take up golf.

LOL... I can find a deer that ran off 10 yds easier than I could a golf ball hidden in the rough... but this thread is not about finding them in 10 yds or 50 yds... it's about DRT... Dropping Right There. Putting them down right there is my whole goal with this thread. I'm trying to discover the common thread from all seasoned hunters from their success stories and experiences. Killing a critter or even tracking them any kind of distance is not the goal here... it's Dropping them right there.
thank you Guys for your information.