Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa 458 Winchester Load Development Results

Indy,

I didn't find it hard to cripm the cartidges but it takes a little time and effort to msake them pretty. Trimming to a consistent length seemes to be the key.

All,

I don't want to get into a pissing match but the NF's are a truncated cone design, which I think is a key to penetration. I know, after testing, that they outpenetrate the round noses by a good 40%, On the other hand I also believe that the wet news print test are just plain inaccurate. Wet newsprint tears with a "high velocity" cartridge shooting round noses - such as the 458 - but it cuts with a slow "wad cutter" so the data is meaningless for game. No data on a fast, relatively heavy (450gr .458" and 2200fps or there abouts) wadcutter! But real life experience says a steel jacketted 500gr round nose, SD .341, at 2025fps will do the job and that a lighter 450gr flatnose with a SD of .305 - such as the NF - at slightly higher velocity will do the job better.

I do not think that hard cast lead will reliably hold together at velocities proven repeatedly sufficient for elephants. Elephant heads are not news print and they are not flesh either.

BTW, I have never had a roundnose solid veer from a straight line though I have seen plenty of evidence that they tumble - but only when they have lost a great portion of their velocity in the game and already done their jobs.

JPK

It is a pita but as stated above, trimming the brass to a consistent length helps. What I do is find the over-all length that I need and then line up the crimping die with whichever groove it is. I have several crimping dies so that once it's locked in, I don't bother with adjustments anymore. It takes a bit of practice to not distort the bullet when crimping it but the effort is worth it. Contrary to most rifle shooters out there, I believe in a medium-heavy crimp as it just helps with the burning of the powder with that extra resistance there.

The nose of a hard cast will definately get chewed badly through a lot of heavy bone even at handgun velocities and this wouls only woresen at rifle velocities.Before the Punch Bullets which is a flat point brass or copper solid with a small lead core,the only way to get a hard cast to hold up was with a steel nose if you were shooting through a lot of bone....and these had to be specialy machined......

Apparently I spaced it or failed grasp the meaning over reaction and or not grasping the meaning of the written word on the post is a negative of this type of comunication,but the good side is that we are exposed to more information than in the old days..........

the ability to receive more information is only as good as the information reeived - and that is only as good as the person offering it.
jwp475, I enjoyed our phone conversation and think you should contact Rick Bin or Dave Scovill about sharing your experiences with the rest of us. Of course you might have to reveil your name and would then become one of us know-it-all gunwriters.
thanks for the call

Sectional Density has absolutely nothing to do with shape but is only the relationship between weight (mass) and bullet diameter. A 500 grain wadcutter has the same SD as a 500gr round nose or spitzer. they are just shorter.

I agree with your contention about them not going far - in air, water or animals, but that has been beaten to death on other forums and generated a lot more heat than light.

Phil, you knew what I was trying to say.

JPK,
I see no reason to be rude because we disagree, and as to uninformed I was hunting Africa when you were still on the tit! and your starting to annoye me also..How about you do your thing and I will do mine, and just let it go at that. I have no beef with you, but your sure doing your best to start something. just let it go.

I did know what you were getting at as far as accuracy goes as I have shot competative handguns but there are a lot of folks who do not understand SD (including some writers) and you did say that wadcutters have less SD so I couldn't be sure.

475Guy and JPK:

Thanks for emphasizing the need for consistent trim length with the North Forks. That must be the answer. I have two of them left and will load them in cases of the exact same length. If that works, I'll get some more and take them with me in September.

I also prefer a heavy crimp with such ammo, though I favor no crimp whatsoever for maximum accuracy in smaller calibers.

The inexperience I was refering to is with the 458wm. And it is plain that what I said is accurate.

JPK

Well JPK, I happen to disagree with you.

Im still waiting to hear one actual circumstance where the .458 win mag "failed" ????????

The .458 cartridge probably never did fail. There are reports however, that some powders proved inapropriate and some earlier bullet technology was inferior to what we have available today.

AGW

There are a few anectdotes out there, but mostly the fault of the bullet (winchester produced some horrible solids about 40 years ago)or caked powder and squib loads. My uncle used his in Mozambique and Angola in the late 60s early 70s on three safaris with good results and factory ammo. As most of you know, the 458 was just about the only big bore available during the 50s & 60s and it worked. Today however there are better choices out there, in my view the 450 Rigby, 450 Dakota and even the 460 Weatherby are all better choices. With thoe three, you can make them "cruise" at 2300-2400 fps with no pressure issues. jorge

No arguments there Jorge.

I just stumbled on a load fro my .460 shooting the 500 grain TSX just under .5" at 2500 fps. Need to replicate it of course, but it looks very interesting at the moment.

AGW

Ray,

You have pointed out yourself that you do not possess the experience with the 458wm to hold a valid opinion.

JPK

Ray Atkinson I'm a average northeast hunter with dreams of African hunting in the future.I aquired a Winchester model 70 .458 which is what I would like to use. This is partly based on articles from Jim Carmichel and his success with the cartridge.My question to you is with Hornadys and Winchesters new .458 ammo both stating velocities between 2,240 and 2,260 f.p.s for the 500 grain slug and with energy at 5,500 and 5,600 at the muzzle wouldn't you think this would be suffient for cape buffaloe? This is a large improvement over what used to be considered the top loads at 2,150. And if these new loads are not true, then why aren't these manufacturers held liable for what they print? I think proper bullet placement with that kind of power would stop anything. So if these new figures are true would you reconsider your stance on the .458

Some report the Hornaday numbers are too optimistic, other's the Nosler numbers. I think they probably are in typical barrel length rifles. Nosler reports dropping velocity from there first printing of advertising materials, and that is straight from the horses mouth.

But 500 grains at 2150fps beats the well proven stopping rifle benchmark of 480 grains at 2150fps (an historical nominal performance number achieved with longer than typical pressure barrels and rarely achieved in the field) set by the 450NE more than 100 years ago. In fact 480 grains at 2100 was more like real field performance.

My 500 grain Woodleigh solid load runs 2145fps MV and leaves NOTHING WANTING. Way more than sufficient for buff, plenty sufficient for bull elephant.

For the bolt rifle user, more velocity is available, at least in 24" and longer tubes. My 458wm is a double rifle and I load to regulation, meaning making the two barrels shoot together, and not top velocity.

I've also used the 458wm with 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2050fps and that load is plenty for buff and sufficient for elephants, but 2050fps is only on the ok side of marginal for elephants.

The new 500gr Hornaday steel jacketed flat nose solids look very promising and reports from the field indicate that they will be a great bullet. In my experience, flat noses out penetrate round noses. But most 458wm suitable flat noses have been mono metal bullets that run 450grs because of the long length of mono bullets. A 500gr mono solid eats too much powder room in the 458wm cae. But 500gr steel jacketed solids are roughly equal length with 450gr monos. So hornaday seems to have come out with the best of both worlds.

A soft from a 458wm running 2050 or 2100fps is more than sufficient for a first shot on buff or any other animal you would shoot with a soft point.

JPK

I've also read that the .458 win mag with a 450 gr vs a.416 rem mag with a 400 gr out to 200 yards has a similar trajectory, differences are fractions of a inch, but the stopping power greatly favoring the .458 win mag traveling at over 2300 fps and well over 5ooo ft pds of energy at the muzzle. whats your thoughts of these figures and would you agree ? I think both are awesome cartriges and either one would get the job done as needed.