This video by Paul Harrell pretty much seals the deal for me. In terms of penetration (referencing the FBI Miami shootout), recoil, etc. The 40 is still the better round:
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
I don't understand why he bothered to shoot the 115 jhp. It is not surprising that it behaved just like it did in 86.
In the comparison of golden delicious to red delicious, (Hornady Critical Duty for each chambering.) It was the 40 caliber which stopped 2 bullets at the heart level.
It is good that bad guys aren't made from concrete blocks.
If you want to see if you can shoot a 9mm faster than a 40, get a timer. Shoot under time constraints. 95 percent will see a difference. If you don't see a difference, pat yourself on the back. A good shooter will shoot well with whatever you hand him.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
He made the point of the 9mm Crtical Defense out penetrating the 40. His point was in his opinion, it was not worth it to change the entire department's inventory on what was ostensibly picking flyshit out of pepper. (9mm replacing the 40)... Then again, I admit I have a bad case of 9mmDS...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
The 40 is a well balanced round . It’s sure been poo-poo’d lately , doesn’t make much sense to me
It's clearly more powerful. The only question is: does that extra degree of power increase "stopping power" sufficient as to justify a smaller capacity, increased recoil, and increased stress on the pistol, resulting in significantly shorter service life?
He made the point of the 9mm Crtical Defense out penetrating the 40. His point was in his opinion, it was not worth it to change the entire department's inventory on what was ostensibly picking flyshit out of pepper. (9mm replacing the 40)... Then again, I admit I have a bad case of 9mmDS...
I hold PH in high regard for his qualifications, and I can see his position, but because of my own experiences as a firearms instructor/trainer in the law enforcement field, I understand why agencies are turning to the 9mm.
The first reason is cost of ammunition. As a matter of fact, agencies can purchase a year's training ammunition in 9mm cheaper than they can buy 40 S&W. This does not mean they will spend the same money, and shoot more, (like they should) just that they will save on yearly ammunition expenditures.
I'm sure you are aware of a training principle called "Teaching to the Two's." In a nutshell, every student in a classroom has aptitude on a scale of 1-10. From a teaching standpoint, it is standard to "Teach to the twos". If you can extrapolate that, and realize that most kids don't come from farms anymore, you can see that you will have to begin handgun training with recruits at a "2" level. Some will excel. Some won't. Some can't hit the ground with their cap. It is the job of Cadre to make them all "proficient".
My own experience was skewed, in a way, since my old agency had a designated sidearm and backup, and that is what we had to shoot, and we had to shoot issued ammunition. When I taught at the Academy, I saw some Cadets fail training because they could not pass the range requirements. Toward the end of my time there, I was pressured by my superiors to pass some Cadets who could not meet the standard, but held my ground. Some were the ones you might imagine, some were white males.
The deal is this: I firmly believe "WHERE you hit them is more important than What you hit them with." I do not advocate the 22 LR for Duty Carry, but I have seen it work in civilian self defense situations enough to know that it is deadly.
If I were putting on a gun belt to work again, and could pick my own sidearm, I'd likely have to choose between 10mm and 357 Sig. If I took a job with a Dept that dictated 9mm, I wouldn't loose sleep as long as I could run Hornady 135 grain Critical Duty, Federal HST in either 124 +p or 147 +p. If you are carrying 9mm, just be prepared to shoot more.
Dead is dead. Sheetbird shot 8 times with 9mm is no more dead that sheetbird shot twice with a 45.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
Crimson Tide, I think this makes good sense. Our Department recently made the change from 45acp to 9mm. We were due to rotate out a number of weapons and decided to just go ahead and change them all out. Ammunition cost was a major factor.
This video by Paul Harrell pretty much seals the deal for me. In terms of penetration (referencing the FBI Miami shootout), recoil, etc. The 40 is still the better round:
Holy retarded.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
The 40 is a well balanced round . It’s sure been poo-poo’d lately , doesn’t make much sense to me
It's clearly more powerful. The only question is: does that extra degree of power increase "stopping power" sufficient as to justify a smaller capacity, increased recoil, and increased stress on the pistol, resulting in significantly shorter service life?
I don’t buy into the increased stress / short service life thing . Never seen a credible , valid study to back it. This is only my opinion . Besides statistically the number of us that will shoot one into the ground is very low . Still a metric ton of guys using 40 in competition (read: massive round counts ) to make major .
Capacity ? 2 rounds difference I guess for most across the board . A grasp when everyone clamors to single stack pocket guns these days lol . Better bone up on reloads
Recoil ? I guess it might bother someone
Last edited by jmd025; 04/29/20.
Rabid Creedmoorians ring my doorbell ... as I open it a crack they speak : "Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior , 6.5Creed?"
As to recoil, it's not so much a matter of bothering anyone, in terms of being punishing. There's no pain in it at all. Feels just fine to most folks. Where recoil comes in is regarding shot to shot aiming, and while an active competition shooter might be able to demonstrate equal shot to shot time, per same accuracy, that's likely not the case for a typical cop who mainly shoots a few hundred rounds a year, mainly just before qualifications.
Dead is dead. Sheetbird shot 8 times with 9mm is no more dead that sheetbird shot twice with a 45.
While that may be true, there is a difference in the public perception between a suspect being shot 8 times vs. 2 times. The general non shooting public doesn't understand the dynamic and complex situation shooting an armed violent homicidal bad guy presents to the good guys. Movies and media have made the ignorant general public think good guys should shoot the gun out of their hands or wing them in the shoulder. But not shoot them eight times, that's just not right! Blah, blah... I have personal experience in such a situation and it's a tough sell to make that granny on the jury understand the realities of gunfights. Hell, you can read the same deal right here on the Fire from the cop haters.
I don't think every officer should be packing full house 10mms because of that. In fact, that is the argument for the 9mm. Accuracy counts! Only accurate hits contribute to the good. If it's easier to get the troops to manage the 9mm then that extra millimeter of the .40 doesn't matter one percentage point of stopping power.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
As to recoil, it's not so much a matter of bothering anyone, in terms of being punishing. There's no pain in it at all. Feels just fine to most folks. Where recoil comes in is regarding shot to shot aiming, and while an active competition shooter might be able to demonstrate equal shot to shot time, per same accuracy, that's likely not the case for a typical cop who mainly shoots a few hundred rounds a year, mainly just before qualifications.
I don’t disagree with you . Personally it’s a non issue. I said I guess it could bother some I shot a bone stock g22 in tournaments this winter . Had no issue stacking double taps on top of each other while running , and saw no growth in times
Service size pistols are very forgiving
Rabid Creedmoorians ring my doorbell ... as I open it a crack they speak : "Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior , 6.5Creed?"
Except for the exceptional macho mano's on The 'Fire, it's really not debatable that the bulk of the potential gun carrying everyday Jo Blow public will shoot a 9mm faster & more accurately under any circumstance, compared to the 40 given, both rounds through comparable gun models for weight & barrel length.
As CT implies, accuracy counts most, speed 2nd.................given the relative small difference in performance between the rounds (again, given similar bullets in the respective calibers), why would most everyday Jo Blows, pick the 40?
Does anyone know what the most traded in gun model is in the last few years?????????
Glock 27..............& I've watched LGS salesmen along with women's significant others of whatever design, try really hard to put a new & inexperienced female shooter into that exact model.
Virtually guaranteed that nearly 100% of them will not keep the gun long enough to run even 1 box of ammo through it....................because they simply cannot manage it.
The 40 is a great round for the macho manos who can actually shoot it well, but for the vast majority of others, the 9mm is a better choice.
The 40 is a darn near perfect blend between number of available rounds available in the magazine and power/penetration/ wound channel! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
Funny thing is that the cops who carry oftentimes aren’t gonna know the difference between the two rounds cuz they can’t hit anything in the first place.... or 12th place... or 19th...
For me personally I’ve switched to a high cap 9mm from a 1911 in .45 due to my perception that dangers have changed. I used to be concerned about an assailant or 2 attempting to rob me and my family. Today I think more of large numbers of assailants looking to take advantage of a person they perceive as weak and just beat the crap out of me and my family.
.40 just doesn’t factor in for me. 9mm is good enough. .45 is best.
Except for the exceptional macho mano's on The 'Fire, it's really not debatable that the bulk of the potential gun carrying everyday Jo Blow public will shoot a 9mm faster & more accurately under any circumstance, compared to the 40 given, both rounds through comparable gun models for weight & barrel length.
As CT implies, accuracy counts most, speed 2nd.................given the relative small difference in performance between the rounds (again, given similar bullets in the respective calibers), why would most everyday Jo Blows, pick the 40?
Does anyone know what the most traded in gun model is in the last few years?????????
Glock 27..............& I've watched LGS salesmen along with women's significant others of whatever design, try really hard to put a new & inexperienced female shooter into that exact model.
Virtually guaranteed that nearly 100% of them will not keep the gun long enough to run even 1 box of ammo through it....................because they simply cannot manage it.
The 40 is a great round for the macho manos who can actually shoot it well, but for the vast majority of others, the 9mm is a better choice.
MM
40 is disfavored for the same reason they did away with physical strength requirements they used to have for police, firefighters and soldiers.
