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I know what I would tell ANYONE if they asked me to kill my son.

He still asked A to commit a sin.

Except that he had no intention of Abraham ever completing the act. It was a test of Abraham's love for the Lord, and a test of Abraham's faith in the Lord to make of him a great nation through Isaac. If he killed Isaac, where would the nation through Isaac come from? Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead, even if he killed him and burned his body. This is evident in Abraham's statement to the young men he took with him. He said, "I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you." He knew Isaac was coming back with him. That's faith, Steely.

And that is also a great type of Jesus Christ, who sacrificed himself on the altar of the cross, and went to the grave and Hell for you. But he didn't stay there! He came again from the grave and Hell. Death and Hell have no more dominion over him. Nor over you and I either, if we, like Abraham, will just believe God's promise. Isaac was Abraham's only son in God's eyes. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God the father.

God doesn't sin, neither does he tempt any man to sin. It was a test. Abraham passed the test . . . . in spades!

I think more than anything else, the whole episode of Abraham being directed to sacrifice Isaac was a graphic representation and promise of the coming Christ. On the way up the mountain Isaac asked Abraham about the animal they were going to sacrifice to God. Abraham told Isaac that "God himself will provide the lamb". Think about THAT! If that doesn't send chills down your spine then I don't know what. Indeed God DID provide a lamb! John 1:29 "Behold! The Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" How wonderful it is to read the Old Testament and see Christ pictured and represented and promised in so many ways over and over again.

The thing that is so maddening about mormonism is that it makes God out to be someone he is not. Imagine if someone went around spreading false facts about the person you love the most. Wouldn't you be angry with someone who did that? I know I would. Likewise, it makes me angry when I see someone going around and saying things about God, and about Jesus Christ in particular, that are not true. It makes me want to stand up for the person that God has revealed himself to be in his word. Wouldn't you naturally do that for anyone you love with your whole heart?

Christians recognize there are different ways of interpreting the bible. Afterall, it's not a very easy book to understand. There's lots of different ways of looking a various issues. There's different opinions on baptism, communion, justification, the nation of Israel, future prophecies, music, styles of worhsip...you can just about name it and Christians will argue amongst themselves about it. But, at the end of the day, we realize none of us knows perfectly and although we gather to worship in sectarian groups, we can pray for Christ's church in all denominations around the world who preach the gospel of Christ. But what mormons claim about God is not merely a different way of reading what the the bible teaches...it is a gross perversion and twisting of it.

The deity of Jesus Christ is identified, confirmed, repeated, and enforced over and over and over again from Genesis to The Revelation of John. Sure, there are some parts of scripture that can be hard to understand. But when the overwhelming majority of the bible continually confirms the deity of Christ, you have to assume there must be a different meaning to the few sentences that make it sound like Jesus wasn't God.

There's a Mormon temple near my in-laws house in St. Louis, MO. It's a beautiful pure white granite temple with a steep spire. Perched atop the temple spire is a golden statue of the angel moroni. My in-laws got a tour of the temple before it was officially dedicated. They said inside the temple are golden statues of bulls and animals. It absolutely gives me the willies in the worst sort of way to just drive by and look at that temple of idolatry.

So if I ask a married woman to have sex and I stop just an inch from sticking it in than it isn't a sin?

That's love? Ok, go put a pistol to your kids head and wait for God to say stop. Make sure you explain to everyone how that is love..

P.S. I obviously don't wish you to hold a gun to anyones had, just an example.

Wanted to be clear on that, no desire to offend.

I can't speak to what the mormons believe, but I do know that the Jesus I believe in is the son of god, and the creator of this world, and all that is on it. Please don't put words in my mouth. I can only defend what I believe to be true, If the mormons think Jesus was "just a man", then let them think that. I'm not sure that necessarially condemns them to hell. By your logic, and what is spouted by some on this forum people here would rather go to heaven with someone who was a murder at one time, but was "saved", rather than see a mormon there. All things being equal i'd rather not hang out with a "saved" murderer.

However, that being said the absolute intolerance towards them on this forum is ridiculous. I have read here that they (mormons) are satans greatest accomplishment, but i'm sure satan is pretty pleased that we're beating up on them and arguing about them amongst ourselves.

Jesus said this in Matthew 10.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw�
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

Abraham did not desire in his heart to murder his son. But God "tested" or PROVED Abraham to be a man that loved God more than he loved his own son. I'm quite certain that this episode was quite traumatic for Abraham and Isaac both. Afterall, most beleive Isaac wasn't just a little kid when this happened but a full grown young man at the time.

The book of James says this:

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. ...Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him."


Then it says this in 1 Peter:

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade�kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith�of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire�may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy..."

Yes, I'm sure God's command to Abraham to sacrifice Isaac was horrendously distressful. I can imagine in my mind the part of the story where Abraham got up early in the morning and chopped the wood for the altar fire. Have you ever been so sorrowful about something that you couldn't sleep? Have you ever been so sad and angry that you went out and swung an axe or beat something with a sledge hammer, just to work out some of the pain in your heart? I can just see Abraham swinging that axe with all his strength, wishing the pain from the blisters on his hands would quench some of the pain in his heart.

Sometimes God purposes these terrible events in our life for a reason. Those horrible tragedies that God purposes in our life have a beneficial effect on our faith. And that faith works to the salvation of our souls. And that's the most important thing - of greater worth than gold - of greater worth even than our own family. And that, my friend, is evidence of the greatest love in the world - God's love for us. That's why we can rejoice and experience great joy even when going through terrible, painful tragedies. Matt 16 says, "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?"

Hebrews 11 sheds more light on the story with these words:

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

Rock Chuck,

Man you need to get your facts straight before you start preaching about someone elses doctrine. Thats the problem everyone thinks they know everything about another religion. Get the facts man and don't change them to your liking! Thats all I have to say.

And without trying to sound super spiritual (because I definitely AM NOT) I love the Lord more than either my wife or my kids. They never died to save my soul from Hell. They weren't equipped to do it. Neither my wife or I mind playing second fiddle to the Lord. Works a lot better that way.

i like that tune ...

Different beats, but I'd give Him the finger before I would snap a cap on my family.

Can't fathom that thinking and I am forever greatful to God that I can't....

steelie:
me, too.
grateful, indeed.

"However, that being said the absolute intolerance towards them on this forum is ridiculous. I have read here that they (mormons) are satans greatest accomplishment, but i'm sure satan is pretty pleased that we're beating up on them and arguing about them amongst ourselves."

Huh? Do you think that a few posters reflect the views of EVERYONE? Personally I don't care if you believe in the Great Pumpkin. Just so long as no laws are broken and you don't hurt anyone. Another thing. How is it that people seem to know what Satin is up to. Is he not supposed to be kinda crafty? As for me I tend not to even know what is next on TV.

"It was a test of Abraham's love for the Lord"

Wow sounds more like something my Ex girlfriend would try and pull. "If you love me more than hunting you will toss out that 870."

Does not GOD know just how much Abraham loved him? Does not God know if Abraham loved his own son more than God etc without any test as God knows what the results of the test will be and Abraham�s actions and thoughts before they are done or before he was even born for that matter. Just a perk to knowing everything I guess. I liked that education thing better that I read in this form as this was for Abraham�s own growth as a person rather than anything for God's own ego as he is beyond human emotional weakness unless we are talking about Zeus.

I would ask for a nice padded cell.

Of course the test wasn't for God's ego. God doesn't have an ego. It was to show Abraham how to get his "love" priorities in order.

Steelhead,

I too am grateful that I learned a lesson from Abraham's lesson. I suspect many have.

WoodsWalker

Your info on Scientology is right on.We have a very good friend that was raised in that cult but due to her college room mates praying for her continually, she became a Christian at about the age of 22 or 23 and her life sure is a great testimony for Christianity. Same with her husband and all their kids. And now their kids' kids. It's a real blessing to see a family like this.

These cults seem to have one thing in common and that is that there is no mention of repentance in order to become a member of their gathering. Most of them call their own shots as to what might be wright and what is wrong. Sweet deal. No wonder some of them keep growing as they are. The mormans do fear getting booted out but that probably doesn't happen very often, especially to the ones who are paying their share. Tithing.

I rececntly heard that ane of the big Hollywood movie makers was all set to go to Germany to make a film but the German big wigs told them no dice as their big hero (main man in the film) is a Scientologst. Some dude by name of Cruz or something like that. It is a real surprise that the German government would react like that but hooray for them! Lutheren church had something to do with it ,I think.

I agree with you about not preaching hell as the main topic. Telling of Christs' love and foregivness is where I atart but I point out that we the people have the choice of decideing which place we will spend eternity in and that there is no escape from hell.A few years ago I was preaching hell fire and brimestone to rodeo cowboys when I noticed that one of them had a bumper sticker on his vehicle that said " COWBOY FROM HELL." My sermon that Sunday made it very clear that there was no such thing as a cowboy or anyone else being from hell. The cowboy removed his sticker and we all had a good laugh about it.

This as sorta like when Adam tried to hide from God while he and Eve were walking in the garden. God called unto Adam and said, wherefore art thou? God knew where Adam was but He wanted Adam to know the same thing. God knows. He just likes to educate us once in a while.

"It is a real surprise that the German government would react like that but hooray for them!"

Not that surprising as I believe scientology had it's religious status removed in Germany. Something about it being a money making scam. I think a cash pay out is needed to reach level 5. Maybe at level 7 your (I forgot the name) Venusian spirit gets released or reborn or some kinda crap like that. I have heard rumors of violence and extortion and just down right scamming people out of their savings. This is the reason why I dislike scientology so much. As for the Hollywood crowd they change religions like I change backpacks or shoes. If they really believed this total crap than I would just keep my chuckles to myself but they feel the religion is trendy etc so will get my distain. The same is true of radical Islam. If they didn�t murder etc I could care less. However they do. Still would feel better for those following other religions to know the same Truth that I do but if they don't than they don't. Tolerance is one thing I like about Christianity. Tolerance of Christians to let others take any road that they want without violence or intimidation as we find in radical Islam. As for what God decides to do with them that is for him alone. It is not my place to say someone is going to Hell when they meet their maker even if I have scripture that reaffirms what I believe. But that is just what works for me. I think God will crush Evil like an empty beer can and toss it out of the tree stand at a time of HIS choosing. I just look to God for keeping my aim on the Buck and me from falling out and hitting the ground. As for Satan I don�t belong to his church so I don�t generally care to talk about him unless the topic is to talk less about him and more about God. I have seen what happens to people that become obsessed with the devil and his plains. They turn people off to the Truth with insults and name-calling. I am sure you have seen this sorta thing in others too. A darn shame as I bet these people started off thinking they are doing good. Some of the very worse stuff is done with good intentions.

Another thing about Abraham that has also come to my mind. The Education may not have been for just him. The true God does not want human sacrifice and that is clearly explained. So clear that even I can understand that aspect. This truth has eluded the radical Islamic terrorists that falsely believe God would reward blowing themselves up to murder. A human sacrifice of oneself for God or so they think. Not to mention suicide. We all know that is a very very bad sin. But for me to guess at Gods intentions for Abraham is pure speculation on my part.